| Author | Message | ||
| Jim02 Registered user Username: Jim02 Post Number: 1005 Registered: 5-2007 |
A friend of mine has invited me to attend church with her. She gave me a bulletin that is used during worship service. Responsive readings and so forth. It made a doctrine statement in one place. It said; "...,first that we confess our sins, and second, that we recieve absolution, that is , forgiveness, from the pastor as from God Himself, not doubting ,but firmly believing that by it our sins are forgiven before God in heaven." This creates a problem for me right from the start. I am not aware of any command to confess through a pastor in order to be forgiven. I know of a few passages about confession, but not to the conclusion of an obligation to confess to pastor. Some of this I think evolves around the passage where Christ said what ever is loosed by teh Apostles is loosed in heaven and whatever is bound is bound in heaven. Not clear on this teaching. I do not want to dismiss this church tradition(doctrine) out of hand. I am running out of churches. Even so, I feel I should have a better understanding on this point. Jim | ||
| Philharris Registered user Username: Philharris Post Number: 2279 Registered: 5-2007  |
Jim, From the way you describe this I would say your thinking is correct. About the only verse that comes to mind is James 5:16, but it says nothing about a pastor standing in the place of God. Rather, as a member of the Body of Christ, we support each other. This verse begins with the word 'Therefore', meaning we need to back up and put it into context. Bottom line though is that this isn't a critical core doctrine. As for myself, I would visit and see if the Bible is being faithfully preached and do they uphold the core doctrines related to the gospel of Jesus Christ. Fearless Phil | ||
| Grace_alone Registered user Username: Grace_alone Post Number: 1808 Registered: 6-2006  |
A lot of churches have confession and forgiveness as part of their worship. If there are responsive readings, it sounds like a liturgical church, which lines up. We have that at my Lutheran Church. I don't believe I've never seen it put in those words though. Where I go confession is done altogether as a congregation and including the pastor. It is not a command, but part of the worship. It is usually a small paragraph or prayer of a general confession (sometimes 1st john 1:8 - 10) and afterward a small paragraph or prayer of thanksgiving. That is usually how liturgical protestant churches handle confession. Leigh Anne | ||
| Believer247 Registered user Username: Believer247 Post Number: 186 Registered: 3-2009 |
Jim, I agree with Phil. This is not a critical core doctrine. I would go to the church and listen to see if the gospel is being preached: Jesus died and was buried and rose on the 3rd day, according to scripture. It is all about Him. The preacher at the Baptist church we are attending now always begins his sermons with this: " It's all about Him." | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 6870 Registered: 9-2006  |
Phil, If this isn't a critical core doctrine it sure as heck is heading toward the wrong direction. It is based on a vague scripture located in Matthew 16:18 "And I also say to you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it. Matthew 16:19 "And I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven." And assumed upon the supposition that this is handed down through the ages from Peter. I think Peter would turn over in his grave if he heard this. I personalty believe that Jesus is speaking of spiritual things when he said this, and not in a context of man being able to absolve another of sin. It flies in the face of solid christian teaching based upon the rest of the bible. We just can't base a doctrine on a vague scripture and it has been argued for ages about what, and whom Christ was referring to, himself or Peter. I personally believe he was referring to the same Spirit that revealed who Jesus was, although it is rather vague and open to discussion. That is not near like the Lutheran concept of confession where confession is made of our sins as a congregation. Not even close. As Evangelicals, some make out confession silently and to God during a worship service, some make it a formal thing like Leigh Anne there is talking about. I doubt very much if Leigh Anne is Catholic or Eastern Orthodox. I don't even know if eastern Orthodox does this, probably not. Jeremiah could tell us if he's around. River | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 6871 Registered: 9-2006 |
And Leigh Anne honey, wipe that grin off your face, I can see those teeth shining from here.  | ||
| Gorancroatia Registered user Username: Gorancroatia Post Number: 160 Registered: 6-2010 |
Is not one of core things in reformation just that, no one even priest or pastor to mediate in-between man and Jesus ? | ||
| Philharris Registered user Username: Philharris Post Number: 2281 Registered: 5-2007 |
River, Certainly, we do not confess to a priest or a pastor. Instead, we confess our sins directly to our Creator, Lord and Savior, whom we sinned against. If what we did was against another person, we are to confess our sin to them also. While this is an important issue, it is apart from the gospel message and I would at least want to visit the church and find out for myself what is really being preached. So, I am saying a person should get the whole story before desiding if this is an important issue with worshiping with that congration. Fearless Phil | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 6873 Registered: 9-2006 |
It only takes me seconds to make up my mind when I see a yokel kneeling before a priest saying, "Father forgive me for I was too drunk to know what I did last night," In church group I was attending one time got to confessing their sin before the congregation and it turned into an embarrassing situation when a woman got up and confessed sin of a sexual nature with full details. Eye brows went up all over the building although they tried to pretend it was kosher. Needless to say, that put a stop to that. They changed their mind about open confession real quick River Phil ya gotta know I'm sitting here grinning like a mule eatin' saw briars. | ||
| Hec Registered user Username: Hec Post Number: 1468 Registered: 3-2009 |
"...,first that we confess our sins, and second, that we receive absolution, that is , forgiveness, from the pastor as from God Himself, not doubting ,but firmly believing that by it our sins are forgiven before God in heaven." What would be the difference between this and RCC confession? Hec | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 3474 Registered: 10-2004  |
It's not just Mark 16, they also use this passage: "And when He had said this, He breathed on them and said to them, 'Receive the Holy Spirit. 23'If you forgive the sins of any, their sins have been forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they have been retained." (John 20:22-23 NASB.) Jeremy | ||
| Hec Registered user Username: Hec Post Number: 1469 Registered: 3-2009 |
Was that said to the Apostles, or do that carries over to today's leaders, or to all Christians? Hec | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 11936 Registered: 12-2003  |
While this confession raises warning flags for me, I would want to know two things: what denomination is it (because denominations have certain bodies of belief in the context of which this confession might have a fuller meaning), and, as Phil said, do they teach the Bible from the pulpit, and do they preach it faithfully? Again, reciting this line is really off-putting to me...but there's not quite enough information. Colleen | ||
| Jackob Registered user Username: Jackob Post Number: 575 Registered: 7-2005 |
Why is so hard to paste/copy and do a google search? It's from the lutheran Small Catechism, check Book of Concord, it's online for free. But since it seems so terrifying, some words of explanations are necessary. Luther was one of the first people in rejecting 5 of the 7 sacraments of the Roman Catholic Church, one of them being the sacrament of Penance. The lutheran Small Catechism should be read keeping in mind that Luther rejected the RCC's sacramentarian view of confession and absolution, he spoke about confession and absolution not in the RCC sense, of the priest dispensing the grace entrusted to the RCC church, but in the sense of preaching the gospel to the repenting sinner. In theological terms this difference pertains to the larger category of magisterial/ministerial function of the church. In the magisterial view (the RCC), what the church says it's true, it's true because the church says it, it has authority to define it. The authority to absolve a sinner is inherent in the church. In the ministerial view (protestant view), what the church says it's true, it's true because the church has been entrusted with the Gospel by Jesus Christ Himself and it has authority not because it says so, but because the message she preaches is Jesus' message. When the church departs from the message of the gospel, it departs from its source of authority. The church has as much authority as far as she's faithful to the gospel. The magisterial authority is not in the church, the locus of authority is in Christ, in the Bible. Regarding the specific issue, confession, the RCC view is that the locus of authority to dispense grace is in the priest himself(acting in the name of the church). In the protestant view, the pastor's authority to forgive sins is no different than the pastor's authority to preach the message of forgiveness contained in the gospel. The locus of authority remains in Christ, Christ is the one having authority, the church through the pastors only carries this message. One of the favorite texts used by the reformers which beautifully illustrates the kind of authority human beings has, a ministerial authority, is Galatians 1:8 But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be accursed. Gal. 1:8 Paul shows that even his authority is derived and dependent on his faithfulness of the message. The apostleship did not carry any magisterial authority, it has no internal authority. The message gave them authority, if they will preach another gospel, another message, bye bye heaven! So much for the authority of an apostle. The RCC rejects this view and presents his bishops of Rome as having the supposed magisterial authority of the apostles, inherent in themselves. This is a myth, exploded by Paul criticizing the first "infallible pope", Peter, an unpardonable sin. Ok, enough, you got the picture. Gabriel | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 6877 Registered: 9-2006 |
Quote: It said; "...,first that we confess our sins, and second, that we receive absolution, that is , forgiveness, from the pastor as from God Himself, not doubting ,but firmly believing that by it our sins are forgiven before God in heaven." Is the pastor the church then? According to what Jim said, "that is, forgiveness from the pastor as from God himself, is the pastor God? Sound pretty authoritative to me, and that's not from the church when it is only one man. What does a man need forgiveness from the pastor for, unless he wronged the pastor? Sounds like RCC to me I don't care if its from down at the creek bank. Receiving forgiveness for sins from a man is not receiving a message, unless it is the message of salvation. Then its still not up to the man to say you are forgiven unless by the authority of word. I'm more confused than ever, I just don't get why you would go to a man under ANY circumstances and ask forgiveness unless you have wronged that man. I mean, a pastor hasn't received any more authority from God than the one who is asking forgiveness????? and look at some scripture here. John I 2:1 My little children, these things I write to you, so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. It don't say we have an advocate with a pastor does it Gabe? Not trying to argue, I just don't see the difference. | ||
| Hec Registered user Username: Hec Post Number: 1470 Registered: 3-2009 |
"Why is so hard to paste/copy and do a google search? It's from the lutheran Small Catechism, check Book of Concord, it's online for free. But since it seems so terrifying, some words of explanations are necessary." Is this first class arrogance? Hec | ||
| Jackob Registered user Username: Jackob Post Number: 576 Registered: 7-2005 |
I'm not Lutheran, and I was never involved in confessing sins in particular to a pastor. While I believe fully in God's absolution due to a direct confession of sins to Him, I find useful to hear that my sins are forgiven for Christ's sake from the mouth of another sinner as myself. A good illustration I think is represented even by this forum. Even if we, former adventists, believe that our sins are washed away, due to the weakness of the flesh, we feel the need to be assured again and again by our fellow brothers, former adventists like us, that we are not deceived in regard with the errors of SDA gospel and also that the gospel of the finished atonement in Christ is true and sufficient to save us. Our assurance comes primarily from what the Word of God tells us. Nevertheless this doesn't cancel our need to have this truth confirmed to us through other brothers and sisters who had the same background as we had. Mortal sinners as ourselves, having the same lapses and insecurities as we have, the same struggles, are God's human hands which are uplifting us. Gabriel | ||
| Jim02 Registered user Username: Jim02 Post Number: 1006 Registered: 5-2007 |
I had asked my lady friend a few weeks ago if they had confession in church. She said that she never went to one. She is Lutheran from her younger years , but had been attending a Methodist Church for the past 30 years and now she was attending both Lutheran and Methodists. She likes both places , but connects to the Lutheran because it holds a deeper signifigance for her, tradition perhaps, liturgical and so on. She has invited me to either or both. So she gave me this bulletin. I expressed an interest because it holds some appeal to me as well, though I am not comfortable with a confession being required through a pastor. I fully expected that there would be points of disagreement, there is with every other church so far, so that was no surprise. Is it salvational? Probably not. I had left out what Church is was because I did not want complicate the subject. I simply wanted some perspective. I appreciate everyone here. Thank You. Jim | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 3475 Registered: 10-2004 |
Jim, Since it is a Lutheran church, I doubt that they require confession to a pastor of individual sins. As Leigh Anne said above, there is a general confession by the congregation during Lutheran worship services, after which the Pastor announces forgiveness. See more here, including some information on private confession and absolution: http://www.lcms.org/graphics/assets/media/LCMS/wa_confession-absolution.pdf Jeremy P.S. I am not Lutheran, either, just wanted to help clear up this issue. | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 3476 Registered: 10-2004 |
Going back to that passage in John:
The NASB translates the Greek better here than other translations (and there is also a manuscript difference in the verb tense of the first part--"have been forgiven"). Notice that Jesus tells His disciples that if they forgive the sins of any, "their sins have been forgiven them"--this is the perfect tense in the Greek (having the sense of "have been already and still are," or "have been once and for all time," etc.). Thus, it is not the apostles' "forgiving" of the sins which "forgives" the sinner--the sinner has already "been forgiven" by God. Only God can forgive sins. Again, this is the difference between the Roman Catholic view and the Protestant/Lutheran view, as Gabriel explained above. Jeremy |
