| Author |
Message |
Skeeter
Registered user
Username: Skeeter
Post Number: 1140
Registered: 12-2007
| | Posted on Friday, November 05, 2010 - 7:23 pm: |     |
"and second, that we receive absolution, that is , forgiveness, from the pastor as from God Himself, not doubting ,but firmly believing that by it our sins are forgiven before God in heaven."
forgiveness from the PASTOR ??? As from God Himself ?????
That would send me straight out the door... No one has the right to "forgive sins" but God, and I will NOT confess my sins to anyone but God . (unless it is against another person, then I would ask their forgiveness also.)
Just my opinion.... |
Berit
Registered user
Username: Berit
Post Number: 74
Registered: 7-2007
| | Posted on Friday, November 05, 2010 - 11:22 pm: | |
"...,first that we confess our sins, and second, that we receive absolution, that is , forgiveness, from the pastor as from God Himself, not doubting ,but firmly believing that by it our sins are forgiven before God in heaven."
This sounds more catholic than lutheran to me. Have never heard of such a thing in the lutheran church . Since they put it on their bulletin make it seem like it is pretty central tho the church you like to visit. I would not feel comfortable with that...
I wish you all the best in finding a new church - it took me more than three years.... |
Jim02
Registered user
Username: Jim02
Post Number: 1008
Registered: 5-2007
| | Posted on Saturday, November 06, 2010 - 6:22 am: | |
Baptist : Rapture, Eternal Hell. Once Saved.
Petecostal: Tongues
Methodists: Right To choose Abortion.
Adventists: Right to choose Abortion.
Catholic: Confession to Priests, praying to Saints, Purgatory.
Lutheran: Confession doctrine unclear.
Non Denom: Doctrines are all over the map.
There is no place that does not present confusion or conflict on some level.
It is self evident. Churches tend to be just as flawed as it's members. All striving to understand God's will.
There is a saying I read in a book. "Having the courage to make mistakes"
I don't think we want to negligently make them, but there are places in our walk with Christ that we simply have no choice but to take our best guess.
My struggle is in having the faith in Christ's compassion to cover me with His peace even when I get it wrong.
The warnings are all over the Bible. I view them as boundry markers but in practice almost useless as guidepaths.
I have come to realize there is no perfect church doctrine system.
I need to fellowship, I think I do anyway. The alternative is another year of isolation.
I don't want to think anymore.
Jim |
Bb
Registered user
Username: Bb
Post Number: 831
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, November 06, 2010 - 6:55 am: | |
So you go to a Bible based non-denominational church where you might not agree with every single thing, but accept that it is not a salvational issue that divides you. You are right that there is no church that is without flaws. Accept that, and fellowship anyway. Where does it say you have to agree with everyone on non-salvational issues?
Jim, you are an over-thinker. I also struggle with that. Sometimes it is just your nature to be a certain way, and you want peace, and the perfectionism in you won't allow you to meet with other believers based on the fact they they are not perfect! Maybe you can find the closest thing to your own belief system and then go with an open heart and mind to listen and learn. If you hear something that doesn't line up with your conscience, then seek the Lord to guide you and dismiss what is being said. As long as it is not a belief that is sending you to hell, you can do it!!
Here is a good book about Christ's compassion to cover you no matter what....
http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=the+magnificant+goodness+of+god&x=0&y=0
I have ordered it on the recommendation of my sister, who says that she will forever define her life as "before she read this book, and after she read this book"
I can't wait. She said it is full of life changing thoughts! |
Flyinglady
Registered user
Username: Flyinglady
Post Number: 8757
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, November 06, 2010 - 7:03 am: | |
Jim, the pastors at my church usually say, here it is okay not to be okay. I am inviting you to visit my church on line. If you belong to facebook you can get the service when it is happening. Other then that go to Central Christian Church, Henderson, NV on the internet and listen to Jud, our pastor. This is a non denominational church. This is the church God told me to attend.
I am praying for you.
Diana L |
River
Registered user
Username: River
Post Number: 6878
Registered: 9-2006
| | Posted on Saturday, November 06, 2010 - 7:30 am: | |
Its Lutheran all right, not Catholic, the strange thing about this is that it does not appear to be a requirement. It may have to do with the unrepentant more then the repentant.
They seem to have a sort of a dual faceted view toward absolution that makes perfect sense to a Lutheran.
Just reading from the preface to this, Luther found a pitiful condition in the villages of his day whereby people were completely ignorant of any Bible teaching, and the bishops had not been making an effort to teach them.
The important thing about the Lutheran is that they hold to the three alones, (1) Grace Alone; (2) Faith Alone; (3) Scripture Alone.
Actually, the former Adventists resemble Luther in many ways, not having found peace through Christ in Adventism, he finds peace through Christ by the leading of the Holy Spirit through the same channels as Luther did. IMO.
And before you say you will not confess your sins before anyone but God, consider this, a Christian can, and sometimes does, commit grievous personal sins against God, so grievous that he may well beat himself to death, and no matter how much faith he had before, he may become uncertain.
And it...it may become necessary for him to go to someone who is able to re-assure him of Gods forgiveness and grace. In this case a respected pastor will do. the Pastor reassures the stricken Christian through the word of God, and this helps to restore him to health.
What I just said may be the basis for (John 20:22-23.
Regardless of how we feel about it the Bible does state in John 20:21 So Jesus said to them again, "Peace to you! As the Father has sent Me, I also send you."
John 20:22 And when He had said this, He breathed on them, and said to them, "Receive the Holy Spirit.
John 20:23 "If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained."
I am not sure of the spiritual depth and meaning of this particular scripture.
But what I can sink my teeth into is the personal commitment of good Pastors everywhere to watch that any of his flock does not fall so deep into self condemnation that the person cannot recover, and which very well may fall into ill health and die before his time because of it.
If I ever have such a need, I would thank my God that there is a good Lutheran pastor that I can confess to.
When I first saw the statement, I took it to be RCC, but I was wrong.
Jim, perhaps you should give fuller information and be more straight forward before you drop such a bomb shell into a forum that is so sensitive and watchful for bad doctrine.
River |
Skeeter
Registered user
Username: Skeeter
Post Number: 1142
Registered: 12-2007
| | Posted on Saturday, November 06, 2010 - 10:03 am: | |
You are right River, I should not say I will not CONFESS my sins to anyone but God.... what I should have said was that I will ask for ABSOLUTION of my sins from no one except God (and any person(S) I may have sinned against personally).
What scared me in this was the line "that we receive absolution, that is , forgiveness, from the pastor as from God Himself "
It sounded to me too much like the Catholic church where you confess sins to the priest.To receive forgiveness from the pastor "AS FROM GOD HIMSELF" if it is "AS from God himself" then it is not "FROM God Himself" That just seems (to me to be SOOOO wrong 
I don't think that as long as we are still on this earth any of us will EVER find a (stick church) that has EVERYTHING completely right. I am ok with that.
BUT..... when there are blatant errors that are made evident.... such as adding their own set of conditions for salvation... my personal opinion is to first ask for an explanation, and if it does NOT square with the Bible.... head for the nearest exit. |
Jim02
Registered user
Username: Jim02
Post Number: 1009
Registered: 5-2007
| | Posted on Saturday, November 06, 2010 - 10:50 am: | |
I was trying to NOT drop a bomb, to NOT find fault with a Church.
The statement was a quote. I felt it said enough to solicit an explanation on the merits of scripture. I did not NOT have the slightest intent to offend Lutherans. That is why I did not identify. But after posting the question it touched off more than I intended.
My Lady friend and Leigh Anne mirrored the same impressions.
It is not like the RC system, it is congregational mainly and does not displace a personal interaction with Christ alone.
Neither am I accusing the RC system. I respect all Christian faiths, even when I disagree with a specific doctrine.
I regret having caused an offense here.
I will attempt to read up more on the Lutheran websites and listen to the links above as soon as I can.
River , I understand your point about there being a need for counsel and reassurance, That fact alone is why I am seeking fellowship.
But I also think that I have to get my act together so that I don't come off foolish where ever I visit. I don't want to teach, give my opinions, the vanity of knowing better or any thing like that. I just want to absorb God's healing presence in my life.
By God's mercy and Grace, I still want to visit the Lutheran church, .......just being.
Jim |
River
Registered user
Username: River
Post Number: 6879
Registered: 9-2006
| | Posted on Saturday, November 06, 2010 - 11:21 am: | |
Well..there was no offense Jim, least I didn't see any. There is a big difference between a discussion and a spit fight. 
If we were having a spit fight, I must have missed all the excitement. |
Skeeter
Registered user
Username: Skeeter
Post Number: 1144
Registered: 12-2007
| | Posted on Saturday, November 06, 2010 - 11:39 am: | |
I musta missed it too...
I didnt sense any offense. Just discussion and concern.
As for churches... VISIT them all
When it is time to settle into one as a "home" church, you will know. You will feel it in your soul.
Francie |
Berit
Registered user
Username: Berit
Post Number: 75
Registered: 7-2007
| | Posted on Saturday, November 06, 2010 - 1:42 pm: | |
Jim, I really hope for you that you will find a church where you can feel at home, be spriritually nourished and grow as a christian. As others have said it here, one does not have to agree on all doctrines.
When I started looking for a new church the seccond time (had to move away from a wonderful little baptist group)I think I visited over 10 different churches/denominations! It was acctually quite devastating, could not find the right place. I drove home discourraged sooo many times, it was like being on a "blind-date" which once again did not fit...
After more than three years we have now found a church where the whole family feel at home! (Funny thing that this is close to the sda churche we once belonged to...)
I will pray for you Jim, God has a place for you too! |
Jim02
Registered user
Username: Jim02
Post Number: 1010
Registered: 5-2007
| | Posted on Saturday, November 06, 2010 - 1:53 pm: | |
River, Skeeter, I am relieved I did not offend.
Berit, Thank You
Jim |
Angelcat
Registered user
Username: Angelcat
Post Number: 271
Registered: 11-2008
| | Posted on Saturday, November 06, 2010 - 2:36 pm: | |
River, I kow what yoou mean about sometimes needing human reassuarnce o God's forgiveness. I had soome sins during my wild years I felt tremendous guilt over. I had confessed my sin to God, but I didn't feel forgiven. God finally used a good friend of mine to assure me I was forgiven. And I did tell her what i had done. I really needed to know that she still loved me anyway, as well. I also needed to know that I could ask for forgiveness, and God would do it. I felt like I wasn't good enough to approach God.
Sometimes i still need someone to reassure me..gult is less of a problem that it was, but th
the enemy constantly tries to steal joy and instill guilt. I was taught that guilt is from God, and is punishment for sin. i didnt' understand that once you ask forgiveness from God, you are forgiven. |
River
Registered user
Username: River
Post Number: 6880
Registered: 9-2006
| | Posted on Saturday, November 06, 2010 - 4:09 pm: | |
The Bible talks about this in Galatians 6:1 Brethren, if a man is overtaken in any trespass, you who are spiritual restore such a one in a spirit of gentleness, considering yourself lest you also be tempted.
Galatians 6:2 Bear one another's burdens, and so fulfill the law of Christ.
Galatians 6:3 For if anyone thinks himself to be something, when he is nothing, he deceives himself.
Rivers interpretation of 6:3 if ye be a pompasass, unass that pompus before ye do something worse! Being a pompasass is bad enough.
River |
Skeeter
Registered user
Username: Skeeter
Post Number: 1146
Registered: 12-2007
| | Posted on Saturday, November 06, 2010 - 5:55 pm: | |
I just love the way you simplify things River. LOL |
Philharris
Registered user
Username: Philharris
Post Number: 2292
Registered: 5-2007
| | Posted on Sunday, November 07, 2010 - 11:10 am: | |
Wow Skeeter,
You used the word 'simplify' when speaking of River.
Fearless Phil |
Jeremiah
Registered user
Username: Jeremiah
Post Number: 462
Registered: 1-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, November 07, 2010 - 7:35 pm: | |
River,
The Eastern Orthodox practice is to confess our sins to Christ in the presence of a priest or other spiritual person. A priest pronounces God's forgiveness, but does not say like the Catholics "I absolve you". The priest prays "May God forgive you..." basically holding God to His word about being a forgiving God.
Confessing our sins in the presence of another human is for the obvious reasons that it humbles us, and promotes healing from the sin. The priest usually has good advice, like a doctor, helping us change for the better.
Jeremiah |
Grace_alone
Registered user
Username: Grace_alone
Post Number: 1809
Registered: 6-2006
| | Posted on Sunday, November 07, 2010 - 9:40 pm: | |
I never really thought of it before, but I have to say I appreciate our time of confession and forgiveness. My church isn't a traditional Lutheran church as we have a different confessional statement each week. Sometimes it's out of our hymnal, but most of the time it's a short statement or bible verse. What I appreciate is that it's a reminder that I am a sinner and in need of Jesus, our savior. The statement of forgiveness is that much sweeter and reminds all of us of the greatness of Jesus' sacrifice. Our pastor is right there reading along, and we all read the two statements aloud and together.
Just curious, do other churches which are not liturgical have a time of confession and forgiveness?
Leigh Anne |
River
Registered user
Username: River
Post Number: 6888
Registered: 9-2006
| | Posted on Sunday, November 07, 2010 - 9:53 pm: | |
Hey there that man is, Hi Jeremiah, and thanks for the explanation on the Eastern Orthodox take on this. I wish I had time to really study in depth into each of the beliefs represented here.
Good to talk to you, wish we could sit down on a rock in warn sunshine to visit awhile.
R U taking good care of yourself?
River |
River
Registered user
Username: River
Post Number: 6889
Registered: 9-2006
| | Posted on Sunday, November 07, 2010 - 10:00 pm: | |
Leigh Anne, in the Assemblies confession takes many forms. |
Loneviking
Registered user
Username: Loneviking
Post Number: 761
Registered: 7-2000
| | Posted on Monday, November 08, 2010 - 12:34 am: | |
Jim, here are some links that might help. Confession and Absolution are parts of the liturgy that have been pronounced for centuries in the Christian church. This link gives an overview of what a conservative Lutheran church service would look like and the reasons behind the various parts of the liturgy:
http://www.lcms.org/pages/internal.asp?NavID=831
The next link focuses in a bit tighter into exactly how confessional Lutherans view Confession and Absolution:
http://www.lcms.org/pages/internal.asp?NavID=3828
Note that it is through the mouth of the pastor that God delivers the forgiveness of sins won by Jesus. God delivers, but man gives the pronouncement as we cannot see or audibly hear God. So, there is a general (congregational) confession and there is also available a private confession. This link, by way of a story, shows how private confession would be done:
http://www.lcms.org/pages/internal.asp?NavID=3825
The idea that we are 'poor, miserable sinners' really bugs some folks. Here's a short article that addresses this issue:
http://www.lcms.org/pages/internal.asp?NavID=2624
To summarize, the LCMS site says of confession:
'Confession and absolution were instituted by God for our comfort and assurance, not as a means whereby we make it "possible," through our "act of confession," for God to forgive us.'
I hope this helps. If you attended a Lutheran service this weekend with your friend, I'd sure be curious to hear what your reaction to it is! |
Jim02
Registered user
Username: Jim02
Post Number: 1013
Registered: 5-2007
| | Posted on Monday, November 08, 2010 - 3:10 am: | |
LoneViking,
Thank you, I will look them up.
Jim |
|
