| Author | Message | ||
| Indy4now Registered user Username: Indy4now Post Number: 898 Registered: 2-2008  |
I was reading through Romans 6:11-23. I got hung up on “… so now present your members as slaves to righteousness, resulting in sanctification.” Paul tells us in one breath that we are not under law but under grace and that we must be slaves to righteousness which results in sanctification. Being a “slave” and under “grace” seemed so contradictory to me. If I was to be a slave and “present my members” to righteousness… what did that mean? I don’t want these to be just words that float in my mind… it is a command that God is giving to us… present out members as slaves to righteousness. I realized that myt problem had to be how I was defining “righteousness”. If “righteousness” is “right living” or being “right” with God and God is “righteous”, then “righteousness” is an attribute of God… part of His character. Well… all my life, I was taught that the 10C’s were His character, His likeness. I’ve heard people say that looking at the 10C’s is like looking at a mirror of God. I was taught that the 10C’s were His attributes. With this still stuck in my mind… then being a slave to righteousness was really being a slave to the 10C’s… and Paul said I was not to be under law but grace. Nothing was making sense to me. I went back to Romans. I knew that if Paul was bringing up “righteousness”, then he probably had already defined it. So I started back at the beginning of Romans. In Romans 1:18-21 Paul defined “unrighteousness”. He writes that the wrath of God is revealed against “all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, BECAUSE that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them… for even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened.” So if unrighteousness is defined as not honoring Him as God and not giving Him thanks… then righteousness would have to be honoring Him as God and giving Him thanks for who He is. Sounded a lot like one of Jesus’ greatest commands of “Love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, mind and strength. As I read on, I came to Romans 3:21-26. Rom 3:21-26 NASB (21) But now apart from the Law the righteousness of God has been manifested, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, (22) even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction;(23) for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, (24) being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus; (25) whom God displayed publicly as a propitiation in His blood through faith. This was to demonstrate His righteousness, because in the forbearance of God He passed over the sins previously committed; (26) for the demonstration, I say, of His righteousness at the present time, so that He would be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus. Here, Paul writes that the righteousness of God has been manifested APART from the Law. So how could my current definition of God’s righteousness as the 10C’s be correct? Paul specifically states that God’s righteousness is “manifested” apart from the Law. He goes on to say that the righteousness of God is through faith in Christ for ALL those who believe. Here comes the clincher… Paul says that God DEMONSTRATED His righteousness by justifying us as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ whom He publicly displayed as a propitiation (atoning victim) in His blood through faith. So God’s demonstration of His righteousness was what He accomplished for us at the cross. How could I reconcile my old definition of righteousness which said that the 10C’s were God’s character, His righteousness with this new definition of righteousness which tells me that God’s righteousness is apart from the Law, it is through faith and it was demonstrated on the cross. What part of Jesus being on the cross demonstrated “do not commit adultery”? What part of Jesus being on the cross demonstrated “do not covet”? or “do not steal”? IT DOESN’T!!!! What does Christ’s death on the cross demonstrate? I believe that it’s His law of love. He loved us so much that He died to justify us, He died for our redemption, for our atonement with God… He truly loves us more than He loves Himself… He demonstrated His second greatest command of “loving each other as He has loved us” at the cross. So with this new definition of “righteousness”, I went back to Romans 6. It all comes together… we are not under law, but under grace AND we should present ourselves as slaves to righteousness which results in sanctification. However, being a slave to righteousness means being a slave to honoring Him, giving Him thanks and loving others as He has loved us. Clearly, when you look at Christ’s life, death and resurrection you see that He demonstrated God’s righteousness with His whole life. He presented His members as slaves to righteousness. He lived to serve others and demonstrated His love for us by justifying us through His death. It’s amazing, I don’t know how many times I’ve read through Romans 3:21-26 and really didn’t comprehend fully what was being said because in my mind I was still in that mindset of the 10C’s was a mirror of God’s righteousness. The old covenant is such a concrete veil that I still am constantly reminded (even now after being out of the sda church since ’06) how it clouds my comprehension sometimes of what I’m reading in God’s word. I would love to read your thoughts about this... what has been your definition of "righteousness" and how has that definition changed when you left adventism. loving Christ always, vivian | ||
| Michaelmiller Registered user Username: Michaelmiller Post Number: 104 Registered: 7-2010  |
Wow... thanks for sharing that! I'm going to print this one and add it to my files for further study. I had never really noticed the circular illogical conundrum which comes from Romans 6 when treated in the SDA way (righteousness -> character -> 10C). I had personally interpreted "being a slave to righteousness" as not doing anything myself, but rather following as the Spirit leads. Sanctification is not an act I perform, but rather an act that is performed in me. You have given me some more to think about regarding Romans 6. I'll have to come back to this post later. Michael | ||
| Indy4now Registered user Username: Indy4now Post Number: 899 Registered: 2-2008 |
Michael, I also found out... which you probably already knew this is that the "slave" that Paul is referring to is a bondservant. A person who "willingly indentured himself to another person out of love." (this definition is from my son's Bible teacher). That definition also changed my perspective about Romans 6. I understand that as a person who has been reborn again and has been sealed by the Holy Spirit, we have the choice (because of the Spirit) of presenting our "members" as a bondservant to righteousness. I'm definitely interested in your thoughts... please post later! vivian | ||
| Michaelmiller Registered user Username: Michaelmiller Post Number: 105 Registered: 7-2010 |
A few things come to mind immediately as I read your post 899: 1) "Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For my yoke is easy and my burden is light." Mat 11:29-30 2) The other is the slave/servant language in Galatians... although, despite re-reading Galatians just now, I'm not certain exactly how. I mention it only because it was a response I had to your post. 3) Although the specifics of your post 898 deal with defining righteousness, the conversation is a deeper component of what it means to have a new covenant relationship in general. Re: Bondservant: It is my understanding that the ambiguity of the slave/bondservant language is that the nature of the bondservant doesn't translate well into a modern concept... particularly when we have centuries of the modern slavery concept behind us. The closest modern concept I can apply to the covenant relationship is that of marriage. You might do something motivated out of love for your spouse that you do not personally understand. Even that analogy falls short though... probably because a marriage is between two fallible humans and not with a sovereign God! Anyway... you've given me plenty to think about. Michael | ||
| Indy4now Registered user Username: Indy4now Post Number: 900 Registered: 2-2008 |
also... This is why within the old covenant it says, Deu 6:25 NASB (25) "It will be righteousness for us if we are careful to observe all this commandment before the LORD our God, just as He commanded us. and according to the new covenant our righteousness is in Christ, revealed apart from the Law and demonstrated at the event of the cross and not through the Law. ... so much old covenant cobwebs to clean out! vivian (Message edited by indy4now on November 01, 2010) | ||
| Michaelmiller Registered user Username: Michaelmiller Post Number: 106 Registered: 7-2010 |
I have been leading a study with some SDAs who, despite comprehending the differences between covenants, are stuck on the "character of God" argument for the 10C. On one hand they say that since the 10C are a description of God's character then it can't hurt to follow the example and keep them anyway... even if it doesn't affect their salvation. On the other hand they insist on the 4th commandment being the final test, determining ones salvation at the end of time. As an observer it is possible to see that the later statement is what is really motivating the former statement. This is a cognitive dissonance that has been difficult for them. So far I have challenged their motive while letting the specifics slide. I'm about to tackle the Sabbath issue with them head on though when we get to the covenant signs... so the "character" thing will need to be dealt with soon. Your post let me see the issue from an angle I had not yet considered. Michael | ||
| Michaelmiller Registered user Username: Michaelmiller Post Number: 107 Registered: 7-2010 |
Rom 3:21-24 against Deu 6:25 | ||
| Dennis Registered user Username: Dennis Post Number: 2113 Registered: 4-2000  |
Paul clearly affirms the Law (nomos) by saying: "Yet if it had not been for the law (nomos), I would not have known sin. For I would would not have known what to covet (reference to the 10th commandment in the Decalogue) if the law (nomos) had not said, 'You shall not covet'" (Romans 7:7 ESV). "So the law (nomos) is holy, and the commandment* is holy and righteous and good" (Romans 7:12 ESV). NOTE: Paul's use of present tense verbs in Romans 7:14-25 strongly supports the idea that he is describing his life CURRENTLY as a Christian. Moreover, the personal pronoun "I" refers clearly to the apostle Paul. "For I delight (present tense) in the law (nomos) of God, in my inner being" (Romans 7:22 ESV). NOTE: The phrase "released from the law" in Romans 7:6 does not give us license to do what God's Law forbids, but freedom from the spiritual liabilities and penalties of God's Law. Importantly, "Christ redeemed us from the CURSE of the law" and not from our duty to uphold and value the righteous standards of God. After all, what is there NOT to like about God's written righteous standards? Indeed, the Spirit-led life affirms all moral directives throughout Scripture and does NOT contradict nor abrogate God's divine will for our lives. Rather, the Holy Spirit enables and prompts us to live obedient lives that are pleasing to God. *Throughout the NT, the Koine Greek term "nomos" refers to the Law or Torah whereas the term "entole" refers to specific ethical (moral) directives (commandments or teachings) of the Law. This is the conclusion of the vast majority of Bible translators as well. The Apostle Paul describes three laws; specifically, (1) the "law of sin" which is operating through his flesh due to the original sin condition, (2) "the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus" which makes us "free from the law of sin and death," and (3) by following this law, believers can actually fulfill the righteous requirements of God's law (Romans 8:4). God's law is the standard for human action that corresponds to the righteous nature of God. We are "NOT under law, but under grace" (Romans 6:15). This does not mean God has abrogated His moral law (compare Romans 3:31 & Matt. 5:17-19 for the answer). All people from Adam to Moses were subject to death, not because of their sinful acts against the Mosaic Law (which they did not yet have), but because of the sinful acts of their own inherited sinful nature. Hence, even without the law, death was universal. Because all humanity existed in the loins of Adam, and have through procreation inherited his fallenness and depravity, it can be said that all sinned in him. Therefore, humans are not sinners because they sin, but rather they sin because they are sinners. Adam was not originally subject to death but, through his sin, it became a grim certainty for him and his posterity. Death has THREE distinct manifestations: (1) spiritual death or separation from God; and (2) physical death (Heb. 9:27); and (3) eternal death (also called the second death--the death that never dies in eternal torment (Matt. 25:46, Rev. 20:10). The unconfessed and unforgiven sins of the ungodly are FOREVER before the Father. The sins of the ungodly do not somehow evaporate in the smoke of a momentary annihilation--the easy quick-fix after a lifetime of profane living. Indeed, sin is nothing less than cosmic treason against our holy God. We can only appreciate God's grace to the extent that we understand the depth of God's divine wrath. Dennis Fischer (Message edited by Dennis on November 01, 2010) | ||
| Indy4now Registered user Username: Indy4now Post Number: 902 Registered: 2-2008 |
Dennis, How do you define what are God's moral laws... do you define them as the 10C's? Or do you define them as laws that fall under God's greatest commandments of loving Him with our heart, soul, mind and strength and by loving each other as He has loved us? I completely agree with your last statement that we can only appreciate God's grace to the extent that we understand the depth of His wrath. I think this is a concept that is hard for adventists because most of them believe they can keep the 10C's which is a limited set of laws and does not include the motives of a person. vivian | ||
| Dennis Registered user Username: Dennis Post Number: 2114 Registered: 4-2000 |
Vivian, Thank you for your comments. Moral laws are those in effect 24/7 (every nanosecond of the time) and not merely once a year, season, month, or week. Unlike ceremonial, judicial, and civil laws, moral laws never allow exceptions for works of charity, mercy, or necessity. It is always sinful and wrong to murder someone--no exceptions allowed. Obviously, not all of the 613 laws of the Torah had the same purpose, weight, and importance. Just because I can't perfectly honor my parents, for example, doesn't mean that I should ignore God's holy commandment. The ethics of the OT law are the same as the ethics of the NT gospel. Yes, Jesus further explained and enhanced some moral laws, but He didn't thereby abrogate nor basically change them. After all, believers throughout redemptive history have shared the same Law-giver. It is a grave error to depreciate God's moral laws--wherever in Scripture they are found. This has been the historic position of biblical Christianity. Because of the legalistic abuse they have suffered in Adventism, formers often overreact with various forms of antinomianism. I went through this phase myself. Likewise, just because I am not a perfect husband or father, doesn't entitle me to quit trying or improving my life under God's direction. He is the Potter and I am the clay. God wants His people to live an obedient life that is pleasing in His sight--even though we are incapable of perfectly keeping His directives. Christian growth is an indispensable part of sanctification. We are counted as perfect only in Christ. Moreover, as you already know, we have no righteousness of our own. Fallen man is in desperate need of a Savior and Substitute. Those who have absolutely no desire nor any intention of pleasing God will not be in heaven. Importantly, the intense desire to praise and to please our sovereign God is part of the gift of salvation (after regeneration). We cannot choose what we do not desire. It's all about Him! Salvation is from the Lord alone (Jonah 2:9). Soli Deo Gloria! In awe of His saving grace, Dennis Fischer | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 11917 Registered: 12-2003  |
Vivian, that is a great post above. You are so right that the 10 C's are NOT the reflection of God's character. That definition has led to unbelievable and widespread confusion that takes years to sort out. Presenting our bodies as slaves to righteousness is, as I understand it, related closely to presenting our bodies as living sacrifices (Romans 12:1). When I finally understood that "obedience" in the new covenant is not obedience to the Law but to Jesus, the whole concept of "holy living" and obedience began to make sense to me. I had not been able to divorce my understanding of "obedience" and righteous or holy living from "adherence to standards". When I began to realize that obedience is now responding to the Holy Spirit's convictions, it all began to make sense. So many times words of Scripture come to mind when I'm struggling with something. For example, there've been many times when I feel cranky or otherwise whiny, and I will suddenly remember, "Wives, submit to your husbands as to the Lord." Hmmm--suddenly I realize that I have to let go of my feelings of whatever and internally ask the Lord Jesus to give me a submissive spirit. He does, too! Or there are times when I have to let go of my expectations. I'll be tempted to feel slighted, or misunderstood, or left out--whatever--and the Lord Jesus will help me see that my own expectations are based on my internal sense of need instead of His objective provision. He has helped me to surrender my feelings and desires and submit to His provision and His will, and He gives my heart peace even before I "see" how He will fill my need. "Righteousness", as you said so well, is actually the attribute of God, and when we are in Christ, we have to offer ourselves as slaves to Him, letting go of our "flesh-driven" needs which are often there as a result of the ways sin has touched our lives. So, we submit to the Lord Jesus and ask Him to show and teach us His will in our situations. Immersion in Scripture is the way to internalize His will, and He uses Scripture to instruct us as to how to "obey" without focusing on "law". When we are born again, "sanctification" is more about surrender and less about will-power. We surrender our desires and our "Rights" to rationalize, and we allow Jesus to show us the next step. We learned to use the Law as a rationalizing tool with which to figure out what's moral and what's not. That doesn't work. The Law keeps showing us our sin. It's Jesus who replaces our heart of stone with a heart of flesh, and He removes our elaborate mind games and teaches us to submit and surrender. Freedom lies in surrender. Righteousness is in Christ, and we can "put on" His righteousness when we surrender our minds and desires to Him. He takes us away from struggling with temptation and shows us instead that we surrender the desire underlying the temptation to Him. When we give up our "right" to our own desires, He fills those places where our desires used to hide with His own love and and sufficiency. And He uses every word of Scripture to inform us how and what to surrender. Colleen (Message edited by Colleentinker on November 01, 2010) | ||
| Indy4now Registered user Username: Indy4now Post Number: 903 Registered: 2-2008 |
Colleen, The one thing that I never expected when I left Adventism was to actually feel that I was a sinner. Within Adventism, I had my list and since I am a natural born rule keeper... keeping rules was easy for me. I felt I did a great job of adhering to the 10C's. Now, with allowing the Holy Spirit to do His job of convicting me... oh my... I've come to believe that we don't really know what "holy" is. I think our minds are so darkened by sin that we only have a dim picture of what "holy" is. Trusting and submitting to God has been a PROCESS!!! ... poor God has to work on me every day! ha! I keep thinking I will get all those sda cobwebs out of my mind... then I find another spot that needs cleaning! vivian | ||
| Dennis Registered user Username: Dennis Post Number: 2115 Registered: 4-2000 |
Vivian, We not only have the indwelling Spirit to guide us into truth, but we also have the written, inerrant Word of God--a revelation fully inspired and empowered by the Spirit. The Bible is God's voice speaking to us. The Spirit-led life NEVER negates nor contradicts the directives of Scripture, but rather upholds and illumines them. Our awesome and sovereign God did not leave us in some sort of limbo or uncertainty where everyone can claim a different gospel. God's Word must remain as a light to our path. It is the foundational standard of our faith. Sound doctrine, as revealed in Scripture, is the crux or heart of Christian orthodoxy (2 Tim. 3:16). Dennis Fischer | ||
| Michaelmiller Registered user Username: Michaelmiller Post Number: 109 Registered: 7-2010 |
This sounds like a debate between flavors of Covenant Theology and New Covenant Theology. We all have our leanings from our own study and our Spirit leading. I personally don't think the law can be divided into a moral component (scripture doesn't do this) and I believe doing is also problematic... particularly when the words of the 10C are the words of a covenant that has been replaced. I believe that the new covenant goes way beyond the letter of the law and is a Spirit led matter. It wasn't until I surrendered my law keeping that I understood and experienced this. After experiencing this, Romans 7:14-25 took on a completely different meaning... as a spiritual battle with the law that can only bring death (10C according to 2 Cor 3). I assume this puts me more in line with NCT. You appear to have arrived at a conclusion closer to CT. So long as we agree that it isn't keeping the law that determines out salvation now or ever in the future, then we are both ok. I do fear that your approach may be inching a bit close to that veil (even if it isn't heresy)... but I acknowledge that I don't know it all either and could be wrong. There is one freedom that I think we both can agree on... we don't HAVE to know it all or to even agree (unlike SDAs). Michael | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 6849 Registered: 9-2006  |
Michael, CT is just a warmed over version of legalism, a simple device whereby they can try to scrub by while hanging on to the old skin. A very big problem I have seen is that people come out of Adventism and fall into the brand of theology that they are most comfortable with, when it all boils out, its their way to hang on to the old security blanket they once had in the Adventist community. Teressa Beam, the author of 'It's OK Not To Be Adventist' got out here and paddled around like a drowning pup, and ended up in the Roman Catholic church and she's socked in tight. It is a form of trying to peace together patches of old skins and new skins, then go try to pour wine in it and expect it hold, they end up constantly preaching the same thing until they sound like a broken record. Its stunted growth, where they cannot grow into the spiritual being God prepared us for. I mean I am not trying to place blame here, to do that would be like holding it against a midget because he is only three feet tall. They simply eventually settle for something that most resembles the structured rule keeping existence they had in Adventism. From what I have seen, former Adventist are just about the best I have ever seen at compromise. Again, I am not trying to place blame, I have come to believe it is just a result of generational compromise. They are like children who run to the edge of the Sea, and when the waves come in and touch their feet they run in front of the wave, back toward the pile of shifting sand they were raised on. Gods Spirit is like a vast, limitless and unending ocean. It is un-natural to the natural man to think we can breathe and survive under water, but in, and under, the waters of Gods vast Spirit, we can live, move and breathe and have our being. I know former Adventists who have been baptized in the Holy Ghost who have ended up in compromise. They just cannot step out into the deep. It is a fear factor. They just cannot believe the chair they are sitting in can hold them up. They go into the waters of Gods Spirit holding their breathe, then when they can no longer hold their breathe, they begin thrashing around, and head for the surface. I am speaking in analogies here, but it applies to every single former Adventist I have come in contact with. I've seen inexperienced divers panic down there and shoot for the surface like a duck, and if you didn't grab ahold of one foot to slow them down they would end up with the binds, and that is exactly what former Adventist put me in the mind of, a diver who is afraid he'll drown. And it don't mean I don't have Christian love just because I won't tell you lies and feed you candy. River | ||
| Karethamiller Registered user Username: Karethamiller Post Number: 93 Registered: 8-2010  |
River...thanks for the analogy of oceans and divers and underwater breathing. I need to let this one sink in awhile...because I don't want this to happen to me. I don't want to "fall into" a brand of theology. I want to grow into the life that God has for me...a Spirit-filled life. I want to be able to echo the words about "live and move and have our being". Thanks for reminding me of this. | ||
| Indy4now Registered user Username: Indy4now Post Number: 906 Registered: 2-2008 |
mindsets... one of the things that robs us of having complete joy in Christ. They're so comfortable... it's what we know... it's how we've lived... so hard to undo because it's like a big comfy couch that we wanna go back to. It's how we've come to know security. Some of us formers leap out there and jump into what the Spirit has waiting for us... some of us keep coming back to that comfy couch... others start pulling the couch apart piece by piece. That's where I've been. Each part of my couch... grace, Savior, righteousness... has had to be pulled out and redefined. It doesn't have to be only mindsets that are our comfy couch... sometimes it's pride or jealousy. Whatever it is, be sure that God will deal with it and refine us for His glory. Recently, in dealing with jealousy, I've come to realize that what was going on in my mind was too strong for me to say "I give this up to you God..." God took me to that place where I understood I was too weak and I had to ask Him for His strength to give it up. And so it is with mindsets (our life of living in the old covenant or whatever mindset we have)... we have to be taken to that place where we have nowhere else to turn, to be completely broken. That is when we submit to Christ and ask Him to take that mindset from us so we can serve Him in the Spirit. It's a tough thing for us River... but God works in us in different ways. Sometimes I look at where I am now and I am COMPLETELY amazed at what God does. He is awesome (... as Diana always says!) vivian | ||
| Michaelmiller Registered user Username: Michaelmiller Post Number: 112 Registered: 7-2010 |
Vivian, I have a tendency to want to take the couch apart and inspect each component too. It like trying to reassemble an entirely new couch out of replacement parts... by replacing one part at a time. Part of this is driven by my pre-SDA experience. I have a shed full of old parts that used to work... if I can just find where I put them. Some would say I'm being foolish... just burn the couch and get a new one! Ok... I surrender the couch to you God... now what about that table over there? Here we go again! Michael | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 11925 Registered: 12-2003 |
Vivian, I love this:
That is so true. This business of surrender is foundational. I'm convinced that learning to live by the Spirit is about knowing that God is making me completely new, and as He does that, He keeps bringing me to "places" where I have to give up my expectations and what I think He's supposed to "do" for me. I have to let Him do what He knows is needed and not try to fill up my own emptiness or rationalize away my fear. I have to release my emptiness and fear and know that, even if God doesn't "fix" me the way I think I need to be "fixed", that He will do what He knows I actually need—and that I will experience more peace and joy if I allow Him to be God than if I keep managing things and rationalizing. I have to trust Him, in other words—and not because circumstances are favorable but because His word is sure. Even if I experience loss or suffering, I will have a life of peace, joy and hope if I trust Him and His word. Michael, I believe we must do that inspecting. It's the only way to understand what a belief is "built" on. Once we see, though, we can't rationalize those facts. In other words, once we see that the Adventist Jesus, for example, is not the sovereign, almighty God of the universe, we have to act on that knowledge instead of rationalizing. I believe that former Adventists have an especially difficult fight with these things because we were steeped in an intellectual approach to a very physical reality. It's shocking and difficult to begin to live in a spiritual reality as well. It's hard to begin to understand that our physical paradigm of food, days, laws, and "the right arm of the gospel" is actually camouflaging spiritual "deadness". It's shocking to begin to see ourselves as "spiritual" beings—but we are! Colleen | ||
| Indy4now Registered user Username: Indy4now Post Number: 907 Registered: 2-2008 |
LOL Michael... I'm the same way except I didn't have previous parts to work with. Gotta have a whole new couch made on the foundation of Christ! Colleen... It is that letting go and releasing that can be so hard to do with some issues. I've gotten so used to managing on my own that I thought I was pretty good at it! ha! I know now that allowing God to do His work (with me not interferring) is true security, peace and joy. Thx so much for your last post! A year ago I would not have understood your words but God has been refining me in this area and I know that your words are so very true... surrendering is foundational. vivian | ||
| Karethamiller Registered user Username: Karethamiller Post Number: 102 Registered: 8-2010 |
Surrender...so hard. I'm sure it's hard because of pride and self-sufficiency...but it is still HARD! | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 8748 Registered: 3-2004  |
It finally hit me, hard, that there are certain things I had not surrendered to God. This happened this past Sunday as I was walking around the mall for my exercise. All this time I thought I had surrended this thing to Him. Diana L | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 6863 Registered: 9-2006 |
Well heck Karetha, it only took me about 28 years to learn to surrender. Of course its hard, if it wasn't we'ed all pretty much have it down. God knows how hard it is for us, and I don't see him beating anybody up. I'll just let you in on a little secret though, the faster you learn to trust and surrender to him the better off you'll be, because he'll take you around the same old mountain till you wear a rut in the ground that's higher than your head until you get it. Now think about this, when you die can you direct your spirit upward or downward? Well, you ain't got no control here either, we like to think we have, but he has us securely, and safely under his hand, and he is watching us jealously night and day. You can't crawl out from under his hand, like the Sea rushing toward the shore, you go thus far and no further. We are safely in the Ark of his love and care, so you might as well lay back and enjoy the ride. Think how Peter must have felt when, after denying even knowing the Lord, Jesus enfolded him in his love and said, "Peter, if you love me, feed my sheep." I tell you I just get all kinds of emotional thinking about just how loved and secure we are, yes even when we mess up, or can't quite surrender to him. So you be still, and know that he is God, and it'll come in time. River | ||
| Karethamiller Registered user Username: Karethamiller Post Number: 103 Registered: 8-2010 |
Thank you River...I needed those words tonight  | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 6864 Registered: 9-2006 |
I mean all we are surrendering to is being under his care anyhow, it ain't like he wants to take our personalities away from us. River | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 11939 Registered: 12-2003 |
River, thank you for that great post. And you're right; He's not taking our personalities away! He's just teaching us that He's caring for us even in those deep, intangible places where we fear, hurt, and indulge. He fills us up; we have to stop trying to fill ourselves. I have to keep acting on what I know is true—even before I "feel" like it! Colleen | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 8751 Registered: 3-2004 |
Colleen wrote, "I have to keep acting on what I know is true—even before I "feel" like it!" That is what I do also. Diana L | ||
| Karethamiller Registered user Username: Karethamiller Post Number: 105 Registered: 8-2010 |
"Acting on what I know is true"--this is all I can do right now while I wait for my emotions/feelings to catch up. If I waited to "feel like it" I'd not be here right now! |
