| Author |
Message |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 11919
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Monday, November 01, 2010 - 9:53 pm: |     |
Ross, that is a great post! Thanks!
Free--I did mean Satan, actually, although Moses also works. But Satan is the accuser of the brethren; guilt was taken care of for believers at the cross; when we are in Christ, the Holy Spirit convicts us of what we need to attend to—and He redirects us back to the cross where our guilt was paid for.
The Spirit puts God's Word into our hearts and consciousness, and He convicts us of sins and the ongoing need to surrender to the Lord Jesus.
The Holy Spirit cannot be separated from the rest of the Trinity. His stated job is to magnify the Lord Jesus, not Himself, and He, like Jesus, only tells us what comes from the Father. We have the Father's word in Scripture, and the Holy Spirit teaches us God's word, reveals the Lord Jesus, and convicts us of the ways we need to submit to the Word.
Colleen |
Free2dance
Registered user
Username: Free2dance
Post Number: 202
Registered: 2-2010
| | Posted on Monday, November 01, 2010 - 10:16 pm: | |
OK,  Thats what I thought you meant, but then our study this week mentioned Moses as the accuser and I got mixed up for a minute and wanted to be sure I wasn't misquoting and missing the meaning. Thanks for clearing that up, I think you even did mention the brethren when you said it to me before which would explain why my understanding was on target. |
Helovesme2
Registered user
Username: Helovesme2
Post Number: 2644
Registered: 8-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 02, 2010 - 8:06 am: | |
Ever read Pilgrim's Progress? There is an interesting section in it presenting Moses as an accuser (though I agree that Satan is The accuser.) |
Jim02
Registered user
Username: Jim02
Post Number: 998
Registered: 5-2007
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 03, 2010 - 6:29 pm: | |
Surfy wrote:
Also, you wrote, "How do I know I am safe, laying down the tablets of stone?"
You will know. Plain and simple. It's a huge decision with spiritual/eternal implications for ourselves and our family and generations to come.
J:
It's like this, and I assume others experience this. If I do a study, refresh my memory, in the zone as it were, I run ok with a new understanding. But give it a week or a month, a new input, an inserted doubt, a what if or perhpas another view point then it is back to trying to remodel a paradigm that fits both views. Like spinning plates on poles.
Jim |
Jim02
Registered user
Username: Jim02
Post Number: 999
Registered: 5-2007
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 03, 2010 - 6:36 pm: | |
Raven,
Now if the ministry of death, carved in letters on stone,........
J: I agree, there it is , in black and white.
Then , the SDA will point to do when then make void the law....God Forbid , we establish the law...
This is why I have found the need to learn more about Pauline theology. This has to sink in somehow and even more so , I have to be able to defend it.
I used to think being an Adventist , I had superior knowledge and a firm grip on understanding "truth". Whew, I was wrong.
I have learned enough to confuse and confound other Adventists. But not enough to lead them to safety or even myself for that matter.
As long as that is true, then it remains possible that they may yet hold a facet of truth be it ever so convoluted.
Jim |
Jim02
Registered user
Username: Jim02
Post Number: 1000
Registered: 5-2007
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 03, 2010 - 6:45 pm: | |
Michael,
3) Jesus expanded the meaning of the 10C which even more illustrates the futility of self-reliance.
J: I grasp this theme is evident in scripture, but I get confused in application.
In the OT, it was as if the law was a set up and they foolishly agreed to the covenant that they could not keep. Theoretically, could they have genuinely kept it somehow? If not , then why did God present it as a command?
Paul said the law was a tutor, and perhaps also, the law is given to control the lawless, (those with no sense or morals). I think also that the 4th commandment was a grounding anchor to hold them accountable and iminently aware of God's presence. That alone gives me pause in regards to present day attitude about the law in general.
I read that Jesus is our rest now, our continual Sabbath. I have not been able to firm that theory up very well so far.
Jim |
Jim02
Registered user
Username: Jim02
Post Number: 1001
Registered: 5-2007
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 03, 2010 - 6:54 pm: | |
Dennis,
Paul is saying that belief in Christ as Lord and Savior ENDS the sinner's futile quest for righteousness through his imperfect attempts to save himself by efforts to obey the Law.
J: I keep coming across this concept and it seems to good to be true. The SDA keep pointing back to works (self assessment) to get cleaned up, yet at the same time admitting that there will never be a stopping point. This seems to agree with Paul at least in one view, forgetting those things that are behind and pressing on........
Then there are the admonitions of exclusions, graft in , graft out etc...
How does one contrast the idea that we are covered (our rags) while we are accountable at the same time?
Charles Stanley teaches that we are saved, but it is our works that will be rewarded or burnt up. It is our life quality that is affected, our reward (or lack thereof) will follow us.
Jim |
Jim02
Registered user
Username: Jim02
Post Number: 1002
Registered: 5-2007
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 03, 2010 - 7:08 pm: | |
Nowisee,
I'm probably a bit older than many of you on the forum, but I don't think the old/new covenant thing was ever addressed in all my years of sda Bible classes.
J:I am 56 and in over three decades there were several areas such as this that were encapsulated with a pat answer, narrow line view and let's just move on.
Over and over , I kept asking for more information about such things, Paul's teachings and the practical pitfalls of law keeping infinities. It was like hearing echos in an empty hall.
They taught a fairly straight forward message and as long as you did not question it, it seemed to work.
The only flaw to the system was revolving back door and burnout.
But they have that covered too. It's called the shaking. Not being arrogant here. This has also been a part of my aprehension. They predicted all my reactions and failures with the warnings about being shaken out as chaff.
We seek accomplices for comfort. It is a natural tendancy. This is why I am so hard on myself and so aggrivating to others patience.
What ever is not of conviction is sin.
God will permit them to believ a lie.
These saying are like quick sand to me.
There is no remedy other than a blind assumption of faith that one is right and the other is wrong.
Depending upon who I ask, I am lost or saved.
I conclude, that the only safety we have is helpless dependancy upon Christ. That is the faith in a seed. I know nothing but Christ in my messed up place.
Jim
Jim |
Michaelmiller
Registered user
Username: Michaelmiller
Post Number: 117
Registered: 7-2010
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 03, 2010 - 7:35 pm: | |
Jim,
The purpose of the law:
Gal 3:19a -
Why, then, was the law given at all? It was added because of transgressions until the Seed to whom the promise referred had come.
Rom 5:13 -
To be sure, sin was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not charged against anyone’s account where there is no law.
Rom 7:7 -
What shall we say, then? Is the law sinful? Certainly not! Nevertheless, I would not have known what sin was had it not been for the law. For I would not have known what coveting really was if the law had not said, “You shall not covet.”
The law wasn't intended as a path of salvation. The law is intended to point out our shortcomings/inabilities. It condemns! See also 2 Cor 3.
As to your theoretical scenario... yes, if they could have kept the law then they would have salvation. If that were possible then Christ would be unnecessary. That is impossible for fallen man to do though!
The problem is, fallen man in his nature WANTS to do something. So, what is the way to teach stubborn man that this is futile... that his righteousness is worthless? The law was given to point this out. They -should- have pleaded with God for another way; instead they foolishly kept at trying to do it themselves.
Christ keep the law and He is our substitute.
The Sabbath...
This is what I got out of studying this subject:
Read Hebrews 3 and 4 through a few times. Pick it apart. There are two types of "rest" being described.
The key here is in 4:4-5 where "God's rest" at creation is described, but at the same time says that they (the Sabbath keepers) didn't enter that rest. "God's rest" is not the weekly Sabbath. With that in mind, how does verse 10 unravel? Entering God's rest is not entering the weekly Sabbath. It is resting from working our way to heaven. It is resting "Today" in Christ.
Although the Sabbath did do as you describe (accountability and presence... albeit a condemning one), I find Hebrews 4:10 as showing it was symbolic of the end of working for righteousness. The rest in Christ is permanent and every day, much as God's creation rest has no end.
Anyway, that is my take on it. I get the feeling I didn't completely answer your questions though... so feel free to ask more.
Michael |
Christo
Registered user
Username: Christo
Post Number: 240
Registered: 2-2008
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 03, 2010 - 8:05 pm: | |
Jim,
You say helpless dependency on Christ, Like its a Bad thing.
Helpless dependency on Christ is as good as it gets.
Ask Jesus if you are saved, don't ask anyone else. Ask Jesus!!
If one truly, truly humbles them self to ask him, and surrender to whatever his answer might be, by surrendering to his Lordship His answer is sure to be yes.
Jim , you receive not ,because you ask not.
When you ask him to save you, and he answers yes, believe him and thank him.
Chris |
Dennis
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Username: Dennis
Post Number: 2120
Registered: 4-2000
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 03, 2010 - 11:29 pm: | |
Jim,
Salvation is a gift from God. Since we have no righteousness of our own, we must rely entirely upon the saving grace of God. Jesus said: "...no one CAN come to me unless it is granted him by the Father" (John 6:65 ESV). This was a message by Jesus that did not appeal to the masses. An unregenerate person prefers to be the captain of his destiny. The idea of salvation being Christocentric or God-centered is most frightening to the unconverted. The very next verse (v.66) says: "After this many of his disciples turned back and no longer walked with him." The gospel is still an offense to most people in our day as well. The word "can" denotes inability on man's part. Salvation is a gift to be received, not a goal to be achieved. It's all about Him! To God alone belongs all the glory!
Dennis Fischer |
Gorancroatia
Registered user
Username: Gorancroatia
Post Number: 159
Registered: 6-2010
| | Posted on Thursday, November 04, 2010 - 8:02 am: | |
Lately, I come to conclusion that there is 2 groups of men - and Jesus spoke to them all - in Gospels.
First group, children of God - elected from Father to be His children and born again, and trust in only Jesus is a sign of them, they dont come to be judge by God.
Second group, children of devil - they are not elected from Father, they are under the curse of personal responsibility for their works, so they will be judge by God. |
Jim02
Registered user
Username: Jim02
Post Number: 1003
Registered: 5-2007
| | Posted on Thursday, November 04, 2010 - 7:42 pm: | |
Colleen, you wrote;
Jim, God never removes ALL potential doubt before we obey.
J:
I know we have been over this ground time and again. I tell myself, maybe today, finally, I will have that sense of knowing I am on the right path.
It is not so much of doubt as much as it is lack of clarity.
C: Remember Eve? ....She analyzed the words instead of trusting the Word.
J: Classic spin. A reinterpretation of plain words.
Eve redefined simple instructions.
In my own perceptions of scripture, I do not think I am redefining. That is why I am having so much problem with putting it together.
I can see the teaching about Christ being our substitute for our not being perfect in our obedience, but at the same time, I don't see any sin being acceptable to God.
Paul defined sin as anything the law specifys.
Remove the law and there is no sin accountability period.
I try to apply the lines of thinking that are given in the presentation of doctrines.
I find that most of the time a specific reasoning will only go so far.
C:
God asks us to act on His word without having all the contingencies clear. He tells us truth, and He tells us what we are to believe. He asks us to believe Him and His promises and act on them. We are not to analyze them once we know what He says.
J: Ok , Take for example , " I will write my Laws upon their hearts"
Literally, then, I can take this at face value and conclude that His laws are at a minimum the entire ten commandments since He wrote them Himself on tablets of Stone.
Or I can take literally, "God forbid , we establish the law" What law, at minimum, the 10C, if not all of it, except for the sacrificial laws.
Or I can take literally, "shall in no wise pass from the law till all be fullfilled" . 'All prophecy' has not been fullfilled".
Yes , His sacrifice for us on the cross was "finished", the temple veil was ripped in two, but 'all' has not been fufilled and heaven and earth have not passed.
Admittedly, I am exagerating here. I do understand a great deal about the teachings of Paul in this regard, but nowhere near enough.
There remains honest doubts about how much freedom we have from the law. We are free from something, not sure what.
C:
You won't know for sure if you'll be "OK" without the Law until you act on the promises of the new covenant outlined in the New Testament.
J: I act on it over and over, and if it is a case of a weak faith, then I am still sinning by default. I shop on Sabbath. Tossed about like a ship on a rough sea. Guilty , not guilty.
If my faith doe snot give me conviction I may dispense with God's law, written on tablets then I am still sinning in any act against my understanding.
In order for me to disengage, to let go of the law, I attempt to find the commands to do so.
Instead, I only find passages that leave open ended conclusions. Passages subject to interpretations.
When I said I was helpless. I meant that, I am helpless to prove my understanding of doctrine are in fact truth. They are best guesses.
If I am literal, then maybe I should be back at the SDA church and keep the 10C (understanding that I will not do so perfectly, but at least on the right path) .
People say that 9 of 10 were reenstated.
But nowhere does it say, You are no longer required to observe or keep Sabbath.
Paul says let no one judge you on it, but even he does not say or teach literally that we are no longer required to keep Sabbath.
The worse part is , no where in the OT does it say, there will come a time (after the cross) that the law will end and that Sabbath will be ended.
Paul says that the old covenant ended.
But he does not say that he is lawless.
He speaks in circles when I read his writings. Law, no law, back to law, free , not free.
Christ's law, then fails to explain it.
Then the warning that we can wrest the scriptures to our damnation. How does that happen ?
Trying to understand literal text, or from trying to put together our own take on it's hidden meanings?
I may be too black and white in my thinking.
C,
Until you actually take the leap and trust God's word, there will always be doubt.
J: It is not about trust, it is about not understanding the command.
C:
It's the same as when my dad died....what if I decided to believe the idea of "spirit" and it wasn't true? What if...? What if...?
I finally decided I had to trust God's word and stop being doubtful and double-minded.
J: To trust in God's word meant that you had to hold an understanding on some level.
C: It wasn't until I decided to trust God's word and believe He told us the truth that my doubt disappeared.
J: I do trust God and God's word. But when I get conflicting words , I do not know if I understand either one.
You have to act on the truth of God's word, Jim, because God cannot lie, and what He says, IS.
J: As soon as I know what truth is.
C:
Until you decide simply to "go with" His word instead of your own doubts and analyses, you'll be consumed with fear and "what if's".
J: Go with? Literally?
Or New Covenant Theology?
Liberal theology, conservative theology,
Baptists, Catholic, Methodist, Pentecostal?
I am not being flippant and certainly not trying to be rude. I am so frustrated it goes beyond words.
I find myself being double minded about everything. That is a path to hell.
So I need to just randomly pick one and Go with it. Will I hear,"Depart from me, I never knew you"....is that what awaits after I go with it? This approach reduces religon to a best guess lottery.
Jesus said , "teaching them to observe whatsoever things I commanded you" as he departed earth. He said "do not think that I have come to abolish the law or the prophets"
"do not think" (don't go there). His mission was not to abolish the law. Literally.
Paul said we establish "the law". Literally.
John in Revelation. "the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus"
Commandements? That's a tough one. Dissmiss the whole OT OC, insert Love for God and one another.
If that is the case, why did not John write that in his text. Instead, he left it undefined, all inclusive.
Forgive me, I get lost in the whirlpool.
Jim |
Michaelmiller
Registered user
Username: Michaelmiller
Post Number: 121
Registered: 7-2010
| | Posted on Thursday, November 04, 2010 - 8:17 pm: | |
Mat 5:20 -
For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.
Note: The pharisees had law keeping down to a science, yet it didn't make them righteous.
Rom 3:10 -
As it is written: "There is no one righteous, not even one;"
Rhetorical question: WHY?
Romans 3:20 -
Therefore no one will be declared righteous in God’s sight by the works of the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of our sin.
Does that mean we go on sinning? No! It means that we are not made righteous by our own attempts at law keeping... that righteousness comes from Jesus. It means that we CAN'T keep the law on our own... but now we have the Holy Spirit to direct us.
From here I will need to yield the floor to someone with more understanding than I on the next component (I'm still studying the next part). It really comes down to the nature of the spiritual battle within us (as the later part of Romans 7 describes), and the fact that we are made up of more than just our body and intellect. There is a spiritual component to us too... and that is about as far as I have gotten.
Michael
-- |
Michaelmiller
Registered user
Username: Michaelmiller
Post Number: 122
Registered: 7-2010
| | Posted on Thursday, November 04, 2010 - 8:32 pm: | |
Forgive me for bombarding you with more scriptures.... that is just what came to me at the time. I now realize that your real need right now is prayer.
...praying...
Michael |
Jim02
Registered user
Username: Jim02
Post Number: 1004
Registered: 5-2007
| | Posted on Friday, November 05, 2010 - 3:05 am: | |
Michael,
I agree with the scriptures you have cited.
This is the other side of the coin.
It is agreed that our attempt to keep the law pefectly is futile. We already blew it, we were born in sin, and we continue to be flawed falling into more sin however slight.
The point of dissonance on this topic is does that knowledge permit us to set aside the commandments of God in total taht are contained in the Old Covenant. I am very concerned that the essence of the commandmennts may still be accountable and that indeed the Ten may still remain an objective despite our inability to attain to it perfectly. "if ye love ME keep MY commandments, ....which ones,(the 10C were referenced along with others.)
Paul said "I would not have known sin except for the law" it all keeps pointing back to refernce point.
Now we are able to at minimum concede to the moral laws (9 of 10) but Sabbath becomes an exception by redefinition and repurposing it's intent and present day application.
Then the dash light comes on "in vain do they worship Me, teaching for doctrine the commandments of man"
I am not inclined nor do I desire to keep the law anymore than anyone else.
I want to live from the sensibilities of God's love in my heart. Liek I said , there are seasons that I am able to function that way.
It is the trembling doubt that I am making a presumption of reasoning when I set aside the law.
I see they are the ministry of death. It may be that we are set free from past condemnation only since there is that boundry "if we continue to sin , there remains no sacrifice for sin".
"I would not know sin except for the law"
The paradox: I see full circles when it comes to the question of law. This is where the confusion is , To hold to one is to ignore the the other.
You are not bombarding me.
Thank You for your prayers.
I just want peace as it is in truth.
Jim |
River
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Username: River
Post Number: 6869
Registered: 9-2006
| | Posted on Friday, November 05, 2010 - 5:27 am: | |
This is a fine example of failure to understand the word through the spirit of God. I was sitting here wondering if I could explain this in my own words to where it would be understandable.
I think because a person who comes out of Adventism, and has been subjected to the idea of soul sleep his whole life is subject to being tossed and turned by the bible, simply because his whole paradigm has to change with respect to the soul sleep idea.
The bible says that if we walk in the Spirit we won’t fulfill the lust of the flesh, and Adventism is based upon one saving oneself. One lust of the flesh is to be captain of ones own salvation apart from being in Christ and apart from Christ.
The answer comes in Galatians 5:16 I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh.
Galatians 5:17 For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish.
Galatians 5:18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.
The flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh, and a veritable war takes place within the soul of the person.
I suspect to the person who has been raised on the idea of soul sleep, the idea of man being more spirit than body is preposterous, for the whole idea of soul sleep is based upon a mans breathe being his spirit. He is more dependent then, on his flesh, his brain, than on his spirit which he has been taught to believe exists only in his fleshly breath.
That is not our spirit at all, our spirit does not depend on our breathe to exist, and until a person learns to walk in his Spirit, the Spirit he has been given, that war will continue.
Galations 5:18 says But IF you are led by the Spirit you are not under the law. So the man who has not given up the idea of flesh only is tossed back and fourth, flesh, Spirit, Spirit, flesh, and the war goes on.
When a man looks at the word through the eyes of his flesh it is cold and condemning, but when he looks at the word through the Spirit, it is warmth and light.
Paul exclaims “Oh wretched man that I am!” And that explains to a T the former who cannot turn loose of the idea that he only exists in this body of flesh.
But Paul saw the other side of the coin, and the other side of the coin gave him peace and rest from that war.
He exclaims, Romans 7:25 I thank God-through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin.
The duality of man comes into play, Paul isn’t saying with the natural mind he serves the law of God, but through Jesus Christ his Spiritual mind.
His flesh does not do what is required of God, but the Spirit he has been given does do what is required. Once in Christ Jesus, we are no longer a fleshly man, but a spiritual being, having been born again, not a rework, but made new through the water and the blood of our Lord Jesus Christ. The old man was flesh, the new man is spirit. That spirit is left in this sinful body for only a little while.
Paul exclaimed that he was caught between leaving this body of flesh and going to be with the Lord, or staying in it out of necessity, and what was that necessity? To reach others for Christ. That should be our only reason for hanging around this old sin sick world, not to obtain bigger cars, thicker rugs, or to become famous, but to reach others for the Lord Jesus Christ.
Preachers like Joel Osteen draws thousands to hear his message of the power of positive thinking. Think positive, and you’ll have a bigger church just like me, things will be good, you’ll have a rug and inch and a half thick. That was the message of Norman Vincent Peal, just think positive and the riches will pour in, but Paul said I count it all as dung, he uses the polite word.
Paul had been and he had seen, he couldn’t figure out whether he was in the body or not when he seen it, but he got taken on the grand tour.
We also, can the taken on the grand tour, when we see through the eyes of the Spirit of God and begin to walk in that Spirit.
To walk in it means to move in it and have our being in it, but until we get out of this flesh and into Gods Spirit, it will be spirit, flesh, flesh spirit, back and fourth, back and fourth.
When we are able to walk in the Spirit we will have everything we will ever need, or will have ever needed. But to the man who is still caught in the flesh, God help him.
An old Indian got saved and the preacher asked him a week or two later how he felt. He said, “It is like two dogs fighting, one is a white dog, and one is a black dog. Some days the white dog win’s and some days the black dog win’s.”
He was just being honest in his description of his new life, he had not learned to dwell in Gods Holy Spirit.
River |
Michaelmiller
Registered user
Username: Michaelmiller
Post Number: 123
Registered: 7-2010
| | Posted on Friday, November 05, 2010 - 7:26 am: | |
Jim,
It sounds like you have underlying doubt with regard to the assurance of your salvation. Regardless of the particular nuts and bolts behind how it all works, you need to know that you are saved.
Adventism teaches us not to say or believe that we are saved. By SDA doctrines, you could miss the mark and be declared unfit at any time in the IJ. This is not what the Bible teaches. The Bible teaches that we CAN have peace by KNOWING that we are saved. Without that assurance you can go insane trying to get all of the details correct. Be sure to keep some verses proclaiming that assurance in mind. It may seem subtle, but without perspective the battle inside can become a road to agnosticism.
Now, back to the nuts & bolts:
River did a good job picking up where I left off with the discussion. I'm still new to and learning in that area myself, so while I have had some Holy Spirit leading and and it has had an impact on my life, I can not yet blueprint every nut and bolt about the battle and our spirit. River, thank you for jumping in there.
Back to the law though -
Jim... you seem to be a very analytical person... maybe this video will make for a good launching point for discussion (I know it once did for me):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YG-nDZMH1H4
And now to simply relate personally:
One of the difficult areas that I discovered during my transition out of SDAism is how after years of proof texting with a verse here and there, I became rather inexperienced with the comparison and contrast language used when reading entire chapters and books of the Bible at once. All of a sudden I saw the word "law" being used in two ways simultaneously (Romans 7 for instance). I discovered that you can't just plug in 10C wherever the word law or commandments appear (and that there are even two Greek words involved). I discovered that "judgment" isn't always referring to the white throne judgment of Rev 20. I had to remove the veil to see what was actually being said.
Michael |
Flyinglady
Registered user
Username: Flyinglady
Post Number: 8750
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Friday, November 05, 2010 - 11:01 am: | |
Michael,
Don't you mean God removed that veil according to 2 Cor 3:14-17.
Diana L |
Christo
Registered user
Username: Christo
Post Number: 241
Registered: 2-2008
| | Posted on Friday, November 05, 2010 - 11:25 am: | |
Jim,
If you remember that the 10 commandments were a portion of a covenant, and not a moral standard it might help you straighten this out. Now this covenant contained moral standards, but so did the Magna Carta. Not all of the 10 commandments, or the Magna Carta were moral standards. I'm referencing the 4th commandment which was merrily a sign of that covenant, also a shadow of things to come. Christ Jesus came and became our rest.
Now I ask, are you under the Magna Carta, just because it contained certain moral principles. Are you subject to the jurisprudence of 13th century England. I write these things because the jurisprudence of the law is an automatic death sentence. That is why, what was written in stone, was called the ministration of death. It wasn't called the ministration of death for most, or some. It's verdict was inclusive for all under that covenant, thereby just a plain old ministration type of death .
Jesus said in Mathew 11 " 29Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.
30For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light."
Now pay attention to this imagery, A yoke is connected to an ox, horse or other animal ,and is used to pull a plow or cart to do the work of its master at his direction. Now imagine that you are working with your farm animal, plowing your field, and someone tries and put another yoke on top of yours, so they can hook up their cart to your horse while you are plowing. It just plain will not work.
Imagine when you bought your horse it came with a yoke fitted on to it, but that yoke would not work with your implements. You would have to take off the old owners yoke so you could put on your yoke, and do the kind of work you wanted to do.
We were bought with a price , we belong to Christ. So the yoke of bondage to the law, and sin must come off. For law, and sin are inseparable, scripture states that law reveals sin, provokes sin, it doesn't prevent sin. The law never made anyone perfect. Then we must put on the yoke of Christ, so we do what he has us to do.
You can only wear one pair of shoes at a time. The smarty pants adventist might say something akin to that you can put on a pair of rubber galoshes over your shoes thereby wearing two pairs of shoes at the same time. But Jesus is not a pair of galoshes, give me a break. They might also say you can wear one shoe from each pair, one on the left foot, and one on the right foot. But I answer, this is just not fashionable, either here on earth, or in heaven.
Chris |
Michaelmiller
Registered user
Username: Michaelmiller
Post Number: 124
Registered: 7-2010
| | Posted on Friday, November 05, 2010 - 12:00 pm: | |
Diana,
Thank you for your correction... you are correct. It was not I that did the removing.
Michael |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 11941
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Friday, November 05, 2010 - 3:01 pm: | |
Jim, Michael's post above is very good; he captures the essence of being able to be the servant of only one Master. Before we know Jesus, we are enslaved to sin; spiritually dead, serving the spirit who is now at work in the children of disobedience (Eph 2:1-2), citizens of the domain of darkness.
When we are in Christ, born of God by the Spirit (John 1:12; 3:3-5), we are no longer slaves to sin. We now have LIFE. The Law was given to sinners who were dead in sin. It was given to show them their true need and their true failure. When we accept the Lord Jesus, His Spirit indwells us, and we are transferred to the kingdom of God's beloved Son (Col 1:13).
We have a new Master: the Lord Jesus. He nailed the law to the cross and disarmed satan and his minions (Col 2:14-16). We now answer to a new law because we have a change in the priesthood (Heb 7:10-12). We have a Mechizedek priest instead of an Aaronic levitical priest.
But here's what I saw this morning—I even underlined it earlier today. This addresses the question of "what is the law written on our hearts?"
There are two passages in the OT that promise the New Covenant and say what it will mean. The first one is Jeremiah 31:31-33. This is the one we are most familiar with; this is the passage quoted in Hebrews 8 where it explains we are given a new covenant because the old one has something wrong with it.
The second new covenant promise is in Ezekiel 36:25-29. This is what it says,
quote:I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean from all your uncleannesses, and from all your idols I will cleanse you. And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules. You shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers, and you shall be my people, and I will be your God. And I will deliver you from all your uncleannesses. And I will summon the grain and make it abundant and lay no famine upon you.
Notice what verses 26 and 27 say: God will give us a new heart and a new spirit. He will remove our hearts of stone—interesting metaphor, no? The Adventists are forever claiming that the 10 Commandments are eternal because they were written on stone yet this passage says God will remove our hearts of stone and give us hearts of flesh.
The mortal, sinful heart is the heart of stone. Stone is not eternal. Our hearts of flesh which God gives when He gives us His Spirit are eternal.
Moreover, Jeremiah's passage says God will write His law on our hearts—but Ezekiel uses different language, although the meanings are the same. Ezekiel explains how God's "law" is written on our hearts: "I will put my Spirit within you."
Jeremiah says God puts His law in us; Ezekiel says He puts His Spirit in us. Those two things are the same. Ezekiel continues by saying that the Holy Spirit will cause to do His will. Those "ordinances and statutes" the Spirit will cause us to observe are not referring to the Decalogue; they are referring to every single nuance of God's will.
In fact, in Matthew 5 through 7 Jesus explained this idea of God's ordinances and statutes more fully. He included loving one's neighbor; not lusting; not hating; praying for our enemies. In fact, Jesus overturned part of the clear command of the Torah. See this:
quote: But if there is harm, then you shall pay life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, burn for burn, wound for wound, stripe for stripe.
(Exodus 21:23-25 ESV)
or this:
quote:If anyone injures his neighbor, as he has done it shall be done to him, fracture for fracture, eye for eye, tooth for tooth; whatever injury he has given a person shall be given to him.
(Leviticus 24:19; Leviticus 24:20 ESV)
But Jesus said,
quote:“You have heard that it was said, ‘An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.’ But I say to you, Do not resist the one who is evil. But if anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also. And if anyone would sue you and take your tunic, let him have your cloak as well. And if anyone forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles. Give to the one who begs from you, and do not refuse the one who would borrow from you.
(Matthew 5:38-42 ESV)
Jesus redefined the law. When we are given new hearts of flesh and His Spirit is put into us, He is our Law written on our hearts. Jesus and Paul and Peter and John and Luke and Hebrews tell us how to live with hearts of flesh, with the Spirit in us. Because Jesus fulfilled the law and made it possible for us actually to have living spirits and His own Spirit in us, God's expectations for us are far higher, more "difficult". They are only possible when we have God Himself in us!
Now He holds us responsible for subtle, internal submission and selfless compassion. Now we no longer live in shadows of righteousness; now we live with the life of Jesus. Matthew 11:28 even has Jesus redefining rest: "Come unto me, take my yoke--I will give you rest."
Hebrews 4:1-11 redefines Sabbath rest: TODAY if you hear His voice, enter His rest.
The details are all founded on that new heart of flesh, the Spirit being put in us when we believe. The written law is no longer our master; the Lord Jesus is; the Spirit is the Law written on our hearts, and His Word is our Source of knowing how to live by the Spirit.
Colleen |
Jim02
Registered user
Username: Jim02
Post Number: 1007
Registered: 5-2007
| | Posted on Friday, November 05, 2010 - 7:25 pm: | |
A lot to absorb here.
I need some rest.
I want to explore this deeper.
Thank you all, everyone.
Jim |
Nowisee
Registered user
Username: Nowisee
Post Number: 641
Registered: 5-2009
| | Posted on Saturday, November 06, 2010 - 11:01 pm: | |
That is why Jesus says come to Him and He will give you just the rest that you need, Jim.
Keep looking at Him, focus on Him on that cross.
"The law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ...."
Hey, if getting our minds out of a zillion subtle, but wrong things, we have been taught (and half the time, we may not even realize we were 'taught' them--we just grew up 'knowing' these things were absolutely 'true'..)...if getting the correct Biblical understanding is a piece of cake--then this ministry would not exist. Christ told us to bear each others' burdens...
Our God is truly blessing us and helping us as we try to make sense of it all. And, when we are tired and can't do any more--there He is: the Way, the Truth and the Life. |
Jim02
Registered user
Username: Jim02
Post Number: 1012
Registered: 5-2007
| | Posted on Sunday, November 07, 2010 - 4:09 am: | |
God said, let him take hold of my strength that he may make peace with Me and he shall make peace with Me.
My faith and hope is in Christ alone.
I am attempting to live day by day by His Spirit.
Having His peace is everything.
Jim |
Philharris
Registered user
Username: Philharris
Post Number: 2291
Registered: 5-2007
| | Posted on Sunday, November 07, 2010 - 11:07 am: | |
Jim,
Praise God! Your posts are so much different from a couple years ago. But then, it really was a hard time for you and I cried when praying for you.
I do believe you are truely finding that God's peace is a reality in your life.
Blessings,
Fearless Phil |
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