| Author |
Message |
Jody
Registered user
Username: Jody
Post Number: 91
Registered: 7-2007
| | Posted on Monday, September 20, 2010 - 8:06 am: |     |
Ok I am not totally sure I have come to a conclusion about this matter, but the above posts have gave me something to chew on. I am going to contemplate a bit more and perhaps post something maybe on another area in the forum.
What about the renewed Earth? Does not scripture say we are getting a new Earth? My understanding of scripture leads me to think that the Saints will reside here at the final end, on the New Earth.Any comments anyone?
I know this isnt an essential matter but as this forum is for transistioning Adventists, isnt it important to get some clarification in areas of eschatology since that was such a big thing in Adventism. |
Jeremy
Registered user
Username: Jeremy
Post Number: 3417
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Monday, September 20, 2010 - 12:58 pm: | |
Jody,
Just from reading the events of Revelation 20-21, I think it is very clear that Adventism is wrong about it merely being a "renewed" earth--it is a totally different, brand new earth. The old one (this present earth) will be, pardon the expression ( ), annihilated. In fact, it is pretty ironic that in order to hold to the annihilation of people, they have to deny the annihilation of the old earth and the new earth to come.
Jeremy |
Jeremy
Registered user
Username: Jeremy
Post Number: 3420
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Monday, September 20, 2010 - 3:26 pm: | |
Also, just from the words themselves we can know that the SDA teaching is wrong. "New" means "new." A new earth means just that--a new earth. Not a "refurbished" old earth. Just like with the New Covenant, as Pat was pointing out earlier on this thread.
The Greek word used for "new earth" in the New Testament, kainos, means:
quote:Outline of Biblical Usage
1) new
a) as respects form
1) recently made, fresh, recent, unused, unworn
b) as respects substance
1) of a new kind, unprecedented, novel, uncommon, unheard of
--http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G2537&t=KJV
quote:new in quality; new and different; 34a usually involves bringing in a superior innovation or advance and corresponds to 8b (heteros), another of a different kind
--The Discovery Bible: New American Standard New Testament
See more in this previous post of mine: http://www.formeradventist.com/discus/messages/5370/3347.html#POST44504
Jeremy |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 11716
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Monday, September 20, 2010 - 11:22 pm: | |
Interesting, Jeremy--the annihilated earth stands opposed to annihilation of people. Very good point.
Colleen |
Jody
Registered user
Username: Jody
Post Number: 92
Registered: 7-2007
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 21, 2010 - 10:49 am: | |
Ok so anniahilation is for the Earth but not the people. Ok so allow me to bounce some questions around,at times it may seem like i am playin the Devils advocate so to speak.
So according to our Adventist friends Christ will come back, rapture the Saints for a thousand years, take them to Heaven to go over the books then return to the Earth to anniahilate the wicked and simply renew the Earth and then the righteous (all those who have passed the judgement) will live there forever,keepin the 7th day Sabbath for eternity. Sound about right?
Ok so we are going to disagree with that and say no the Earth itself is to be completely destroyed or anniahilated, but the people still exist somewhere. I guess the wicked have been thrown in the Lake of Fire but not the one consuming the Earth and the righteous are where?
We were raptured in the air according to Thessalonians but where were we taken? I personally dont believe Adventists who say we were taken to Heaven for a 1000 year period and i dont believe Dispensationalists who try to say we were taken there for 7 years.
So (I am thinking out loud) is it possible that we could be raptured in the air,the final judgement takes place,the wicked our thrown in there place and then we descend with Christ on the completely renewed Earth? I dont understand how Pre Millenialists can have us raptured in the air but yet spending 1000 years here on the Earth? |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 11723
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 21, 2010 - 9:45 pm: | |
Jody, I don't think we can specifically define the "steps" and exactly what will happen...because it's not specifically articulated in Scripture. There's mystery in this that is not completely defined.
What IS defined fairly clearly is the millennium on earth (Revelation 20), and the fact that the first resurrection of the righteous happens at the beginning of the millennium, and the righteous reign with Him.
There are passages in Revelation that do sound as if the church is not involved in the tribulation...and that those on earth during the tribulation are primarily Jews who will be evangelized during that time prior to the return of Jesus to establish His throne on earth.
But again, I can't say FOR SURE exactly how it will look. There's room here for disagreement, but it shouldn't divide the body. I think the least "gospel-consistent" scenario is amillennialism.
Colleen |
Rossbondreturns
Registered user
Username: Rossbondreturns
Post Number: 24
Registered: 10-2009
| | Posted on Thursday, September 23, 2010 - 3:12 pm: | |
Jody you know where the Holy Spirit led me in this:
The Rapture happens (we are taken to Heaven for 7 Years) Bema Seat of Christ/Marriage Supper of the Lamb.
On Earth 7 Year Tribulation.
Jesus and the Saints return from Heaven to put an end to the Battle of Armageddon and Save the Nation of Israel.
Judgment of the Sheep and the Goats
1,000 Year Millennial Reign
Final Judgment of the Lost |
Gcfrankie
Registered user
Username: Gcfrankie
Post Number: 720
Registered: 1-2007
| | Posted on Friday, September 24, 2010 - 9:30 am: | |
Ok, I will give this a shot. I am not sure if this comes from sda or when I was raised in a protestant church. As I remember being taught is that the righteous will join Jesus in the New Jerusalem and satan and his minions will roam on earth among the dead for the 1,000 yrs and then the New Jerusalem returns and satan and his minions for awhile will attack and try and sway the belivers to his side before he is finally thrown into the lake of fire/final death.
Like I said I do not remember where I learned this as I was not raised in the sda religion but came in as an adult.
Gail |
Jeremy
Registered user
Username: Jeremy
Post Number: 3433
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Friday, September 24, 2010 - 11:13 am: | |
Gail,
That's the SDA version. For the Bible's version, read Revelation 19:11-21:8.
Jeremy |
Jody
Registered user
Username: Jody
Post Number: 93
Registered: 7-2007
| | Posted on Monday, September 27, 2010 - 6:00 am: | |
I totally agree that this is not something to neccesarily divide over,SDA's would prob disagree and say it is however..
I guess we all seem to be coming down differently on this issue. Of all the views out there I lean towards the Amillenial view and that was before i even knew what Amillenialism was. |
Skeeter
Registered user
Username: Skeeter
Post Number: 1070
Registered: 12-2007
| | Posted on Monday, September 27, 2010 - 9:29 am: | |
I am still confused about the whole "rapture " thing.
I have heard it referred to as a "secret" rapture... but how could it be a "secret" if EVERY eye will see Him ? Or if it is done without Christ actually COMING to get us personally,,, but just somehow transports us to be with Him,, how can it even then be a "secret" as there would be so many (hopefully)that would just suddenly disappear off the the earth all at once ? and if Jesus does come for the church in a "secret rapture"... then when He returns WITH the Saints (who I thought were the ones who have died as Christians and are in Heaven) then it would not be His 2nd coming... but 3rd. (??? confusion???)
I guess it really shouldnt matter about the details as long as we are confident in our relationship with Jesus... but I am still curious.
Francie |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 11740
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Monday, September 27, 2010 - 12:57 pm: | |
Francie, usually Christians don't use "secret" with the word "rapture". They just say "rapture". The Bible describes Jesus returning with angels, with the sound of a trumpet and the voice of the archangel (1 Thess. 14).
Go with the Bible...and don't be thrown off by the words of detractors, phrases such as "secret rapture".
Colleen |
Hec
Registered user
Username: Hec
Post Number: 1420
Registered: 3-2009
| | Posted on Monday, September 27, 2010 - 1:30 pm: | |
Where did SDA get that notion of "secret rapture"? Anybody knows?
Hec |
Jody
Registered user
Username: Jody
Post Number: 94
Registered: 7-2007
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 28, 2010 - 4:48 am: | |
Francie, I totally agree with everything u said.I dont see in scripture about a third coming.I am only looking for a second coming and that will be the end of the age and the consumation of all things. At least thats the way i read it. |
River
Registered user
Username: River
Post Number: 6788
Registered: 9-2006
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 28, 2010 - 6:09 am: | |
I think Colleen nailed it, I never heard the word 'secret' in connection with rapture until I heard an Adventist mention it, which was many, many years after the Lord saved me.
It does look like I would have heard it from someone.
I took it that the Adventist was poo pooing any rapture at all, I guess because of the way he kind of had a slur in his voice.
As he and I seemed to be close friends I never ask him to clarify his statement. I just took it that he didn't believe in a rapture at all.
Is that what they believe? I am a little bit confused I guess.
River |
1john2v27nlt
Registered user
Username: 1john2v27nlt
Post Number: 178
Registered: 5-2009
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 28, 2010 - 7:33 am: | |
I thought that SECRET Rapture came from the dispensationalists - like the Left Behind series??
And SDAs said it was simply the noisy 2nd Coming??
That there was no pre second coming disappearnace of believers.
J9 |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 11751
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 28, 2010 - 4:15 pm: | |
There are so many different views re: the "how" and the "what" of the rapture...but I'm finding that the Christians with whom we rub shoulders NEVER call it the "secret rapture". I'm not saying there aren't some that do, but "secret" seems to be the handle on which Adventists hang their disparagement of the rapture in general.
Adventists have to have The Second Coming presented in a specific way that allows for the IJ, the Sunday law, and the little black cloud in the east.
Colleen |
Wiredog
Registered user
Username: Wiredog
Post Number: 1
Registered: 8-2010
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 28, 2010 - 9:54 pm: | |
I would agree that if you have been exposed or raised as an Adventist that you are conditioned to assume/hear when a Christian is talking about the "rapture" they mean "SECRET rapture".
A Personal Example--We live in the Dallas Ft. Worth area where dispensationalisim is strong. When we left Adventism and it took a year for us to become Christians. When we did my wife and I joined Stonebriar Community Church (SCC) which enjoys a strong presence of Dallas Theological Seminary Graduates, the center for Modern Dispensationalism.
During the Membership classes I read SCC's Statement of Faith that contains 7 Core Beliefs to which each member must be in complete agreement (http://www.stonebriar.org/about-us/beliefs/seven-core-beliefs/). There was no requirement of a belief in a rapture.
However in our expanded 8-page Detailed Statement of Faith there is a section that addresses the rapture. For a week I wrestled with the fact that I could NOT subscribe to a secret rapture or be a part of a Church that did. It was only after a week of rereading the document carefully that I realized there is nothing mentioned about it being SECRET, "secret" was not even in there. The description doesn’t even allude to anything Secret (http://www.stonebriar.org/about-us/beliefs/detailed-statement-of-faith/).
I had been so conditioned to think Secret Rapture after years in Adventism that I had almost been robbed of the great fellowship of my Christian Brothers and Sisters. I looked at the site today and noticed they changed the title of the section to "The Blessed Hope". I also noticed for Christians the issue of a rapture Secret or not is not salvific. We are SAVED, regardless of how soon we get there.
My commendation is to read critically and do not believe what you have been told, unless you yourself read it critically and have tested it against Scripture. |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 11761
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 28, 2010 - 11:33 pm: | |
Wiredog, welcome to the forum! It's good to have you here. You're right about the way we read Christian words when we first exit Adventism. We have to assume that we aren't understanding the words the way Christians in general understand them.
Colleen |
Hec
Registered user
Username: Hec
Post Number: 1427
Registered: 3-2009
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 29, 2010 - 10:10 am: | |
Welcome, Wiredog. They keep coming. Hallelujah!
Hec |
