| Author | Message | ||
| Free2dance Registered user Username: Free2dance Post Number: 35 Registered: 2-2010 |
I read today that every covenant in the old testement points to Jesus (ESV study Bible Notes, Pg. 24). I read that there are two sides of every covenant, what God will do, and what man will do. If I am understanding this right, every covenant points to Jesus in that He fulfills the obligation of man in every place where man has an obligation to God. Am I making sense? For example, when God tells Abraham to leave his fathers home and people to go to a land He will show him and He will make him a great nation, you would see that this points to Jesus leaving His Father's home to a land where God shows Him and God makes Him a great nation. If Jesus is the fulfillment of all covenants, than the Sabbath issues becomes real easy! In fulfilling these things, its like, He becomes these things. In fulfilling the sacrificial system, He becomes that Lamb who was Slain. In fulfilling the sabbath requirements, He becomes our Sabbath. Am I using a brod brush or is it possible that this works with any covenant you can find in scripture? | ||
| Cortney Registered user Username: Cortney Post Number: 187 Registered: 8-2006 |
Jesus fulfilled all of them! Even Sabbath! Adventists always tried to trump me with the RCC Catechism 'Sabbath change' as proof that Sabbath was still binding on Believers. I asked a question a while (years back) back to my very dear Catholic friend about sabbath keeping, she referred me to a Catholic Encyclopedia site, New Advent, in New Advent question and answers section it said the earliest of church fathers (I don't remember the full name, I'm not RCC) Saint Antioch Ignaseus? written in 107 AD says- 'the Christian converts have given up sabbath keeping completely and instead worship on the 8th Day as the Day of the Lord, for the Lord gave them New Life on that day'. The answer goes on to say that Sunday does not replace Sabbath because Sabbath was part of the ceremonial law given to the Children of Israel and we(RCC) know Christ is Lord of the Sabbath, therefor He has the power to complete the fulfillment of the Sabbath obligation and gives verses in the books of Colossians, Matthew, and Hebrews as points of reference and study on the issue. The answer went on to say we(RCC) do not keep Sunday as a Jewish type Sabbath, but rather a day of coming together and renewel of the Body of Christ. Another thing I never understood, if the Israelites were slaves in Egypt, how the heck were they able to even keep Sabbath? If like SDA's believe, Sabbath began in Eden. | ||
| Free2dance Registered user Username: Free2dance Post Number: 36 Registered: 2-2010 |
I have been totaly convinced that the Jewish Sabbath is no longer binding. But explaining it to others was challanging. This concept seems to give a more simplified way to at least begin the conversation. When they ask why I "ignore the 4th commandment" I will have other examples of this type of fulfillment to pull from. I had NEVER been taught in SDAism that Jesus fulfilled mans obligation to ALL covenants made with God. I am hoping that I understand this correctly. Even if I don't this doesn't change my conviction on the Sabbath issue. Is it accurate to say that any covenant between man and God in the old testament has been fulfilled by Jesus? | ||
| Free2dance Registered user Username: Free2dance Post Number: 37 Registered: 2-2010 |
BTW, thank you for sharing that additional infomation on the Lords Day Cortney! Very interesting!! | ||
| Bskillet Registered user Username: Bskillet Post Number: 764 Registered: 8-2008 |
The number one key thing to understanding Scripture: It's all about Jesus. By fulfilling the Law, He became the Law on the Cross. When Jesus was nailed to the Cross, He was the Law being crucified, so that the Law is dead to us. Moreover, Paul says not simply that Jesus took the curse of the Law, but that He became a curse (Gal. 3:13). Because He became the curse, the curse is fulfilled for us, so that in Him we have died to the Law. Because He fulfilled the Law in all its respects, the Law is crucified in Him. So the Law is dead to us (Col. 2:14, Eph. 2:14-15), and we to the Law (Gal. 2:19-20, Rom. 7:4-6). Yes, and the New Covenant as well. The New Covenant is between God and the man Jesus Christ, and the gift of God given to Jesus Christ overflows to those who believe in Jesus Christ. That is why the New Covenant is assured, so that we have certainty of our salvation: It is based on what Jesus has done already. (Message edited by bskillet on September 10, 2010) | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 11680 Registered: 12-2003  |
Great answer/texts, Brent! Free2dance, you are seeing this correctly. My "a-ha!" moment when the veil was finally ripped away was when I heard Dale Ratzlaff explain the New Covenant compared to the Old at an SDA Forum meeting in San Diego in 1996. He showed how the new covenant was made between God the Father and God the Son. All the requirements for mankind were fulfilled and accomplished in Jesus. As our representative and substitute, Jesus keeps the covenant for me. When I accept His sacrifice for sin, I receive His life and my life is hidden with Him in God (Col 3:3;). Therefore, because I am in Christ, all He has done is credited to me. The New Covenant is the "real-time" fulfillment of the covenant God made with Abraham. He put Abraham to sleep so he wouldn't even be part of the covenant-making, and God Himself came down in the form of a smoking pot and a flaming furnace—symbols of the Father and the Son—and moved among the sacrificial animal pieces. God Himself ratified His covenant with Abraham—and there were no human promises involved. Jesus and the Father fulfilled that promise to Abraham when Jesus died and rose again and became the Perfect Sacrifice that accomplished the "human" part of the covenant—yet none of the covenant promises were made by mortal men. God Himself keeps the covenant Himself in the persons of the Trinity as the Father accepts the Son's substitutionary sacrifice for fallen men. As 1 Timothy 2:10 says, there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus. It's enough to make me cry... Colleen | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 6684 Registered: 9-2006  |
Me too Colleen, and I ain't even a former. | ||
| Free2dance Registered user Username: Free2dance Post Number: 57 Registered: 2-2010 |
Thank you Colleen! Wow...there really are no words worthy of describing the emotion involved when you see yet again what He has done. There are just so many ways God shows us what He did! Everytime I get a picture of how amazing it all is, He shows me another one. I just learned too that Isaac was most likely between 25 and 35 when Abraham took him to the alter to sacrifice him to God! I knew this pointed to the cross, but I always struggled with it because Isaac was just a boy! This new piece of information somehow changes everything. It is amazing how the WHOLE truth about the things of God can competely change everthing! Thank you for taking me back to His covenant with Abraham. I will be reading it again tonight! | ||
| Psalm107v2 Registered user Username: Psalm107v2 Post Number: 739 Registered: 10-2008  |
Colleen & River, I have been having my own teary moments this week in reading Colossians, hearing Adrian Rogers talk about substition and pondering and studying 2 Corinthians 5:21 God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God. On one level I get it, it's a substitution and only when we realize it's ALL about Jesus. The Abrahamic covenant was really a covenant God made with Himself-Abraham was asleep. The new covenant is the covenant in Jesus' blood--which you so aptly put Brent-it is a covenant between the Father and Jesus Christ God in human flesh. What causes me to tear up, want to dance yet shake my head in amazement is that though I get it on one level I truly can't fully grasp that Jesus, my Creator, who is from eternity past and will be forever took my place. There is NOTHING I can do, He did it. When He said it is finished He did not say ....to be continued like some sappy soap opera. It's done. I am positionally a co-heir of heaven IN HIM. This miserable life is temporary and I'm merely just waiting for my real home. A home I do not deserve, did not build, did not have any part in. He did it and I don't deserve it. WHY?? His love explains it but His grace is so overwhelming my heart and mind can't contain just how rich it is. I'm studying Hosea right now and I am the filthy prostitute that he married, lived for and loved though I sought after other lovers. His love is indescribable, outrageous and mind blowing. Instead of death, I have life, instead of eternal torment I have mercy. To top it all off I have grace lavished upon me. My heart wants to exlode when I really think about it. Oh by the way Free2dance-Sam Pestes has a wonderful audio seriesthat dicusses the Abrahamic covenant it can be found at the Life Assurance Minsitries book store-His website is http://sendingthelight.com/ BTW I love your username every time I see it, it reminds me of one of the songs we sing at Church Enoch | ||
| Patallen Registered user Username: Patallen Post Number: 132 Registered: 7-2010  |
Enoch, I'm really blessed by your post. Are you in love or what?  God truly is amazing and past finding out! Pat | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 8580 Registered: 3-2004  |
Enoch, Really like your post. It describes me to perfectly. When I study my Bible I am awestruck by what Jesus did for me. Don't understand it, but very gald He did. Diana L | ||
| Nowisee Registered user Username: Nowisee Post Number: 564 Registered: 5-2009 |
Yes, Enoch, I love what you said. There are so many layers and so much depth to Jesus and what He did for us, that I know I'm not getting but a little bit of it! As an sda I remember thinking that if heaven went on forever and ever and ever, wouldn't that get boring? Now I think, we will be able to spend forever getting to the depth and breadth and height of Jesus and we will have the best, never-ending praise service--song after song! It doesn't sound boring any more. It'll be, well, HEAVEN! | ||
| Free2dance Registered user Username: Free2dance Post Number: 73 Registered: 2-2010 |
Enoch, thank you for your post! It is so amazing that God is impossible to grasp completely. As an SDA I thought we pretty much had Him pegged, as much as He would allow on earth anyway. What a sad way to live. One of the awesome gifts of God, I think, is that we get to constantly experience new discoveries that FILL our hearts like nothing else can. It's not a one time discovery, its like...taking that first bite of your favorite meal over and over and over again and it just gets better! (really bad example, lol) BTW Enoch, I had that song in mind when I chose that name. That song was in the worship set played the first time I walked into my new church. I had heard it before on the radio but had payed little attention to the words. It has SO much meaning now! =D "I am FREE to live for you (not for my reputation or according to my guilt and fears)! I am Free!" I love it!! | ||
| Willy430 Registered user Username: Willy430 Post Number: 21 Registered: 2-2006 |
Free2dance, who ever gave you the information that all covenants are two sided was incorrect. The covenant God made with Abraham was one sided only, when Abraham cut the animals in half the Chaldean practice was for both parties to pass between the halved sacrifices, in the modified ceremony only God passed between the sacrificial animals. This denotes the covenant of faith was done only by God, it did not include Abraham. Abraham asked how can I KNOW I will inherit the land, this is a salvation question, since Abraham was already old and knew he needed resurrection to live in the promised land. Boiled down to it's simplest terms, God said you will live in the land of promise because of what I have done. I'll see if I can find another one sided covenant, I'm sure there is more than one. | ||
| 1john2v27nlt Registered user Username: 1john2v27nlt Post Number: 213 Registered: 5-2009 |
Very important point Willy430. That is what makes our salvation sure. God does it all. All through the OT God repeats over & over - I WILL DO IT & You will KNOW that I AM GOD. It's not about us. The Sinai LAW was to make us very aware that we cannot do it ourselves. Galatians 3:15-29 tells us that there was NO MEDIATOR in the Covenant of Promise. Abraham was sleeping (metaphor for dead??) & then it was ratified by Christ - God ALONE did it all on this one. I know most all here know this. It's just a good opportunity for me to practice clarifying & stating what is coming clear to me in my journey out. J9 | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 11884 Registered: 12-2003 |
Yes, Willy, the Abrahamic covenant was unconditional because it did not involve any promise from man. Only God made and kept the covenant. Yet the smoking furnace and burning pot that moved between the pieces of the sacrifice (Gen 15) represent the Father and the Son. The Abrahamic covenant is fulfilled in the New Covenant, also unconditional. The New Covenant does not depend upon ANY promise from man—but it is made between God the Father and God the Son. Jesus, as our representative, keeps the New Covenant for us who are in Him. The Lord Jesus IS God, but He is also the one mediator between God and man (1 Tim 2:5), the Man Christ Jesus. As a man He keeps the the "human" side of the new covenant in that He dies our death, pays the price for our sin, and imputes His righteousness to us. The Father accepts His sacrifice, and the New Covenant is absolutely CERTAIN and infallible because it is entirely done and kept by God—yet the Father, the Son and also the Holy Spirit are all involved in it. Jesus is the human representative; God is the righteous judge who accepts the Man Jesus' sacrifice; the Holy Spirit is the One who indwells us and ushers us spiritually into the new covenant by giving us God's life in our previously dead spirits. Unconditional covenants are made and kept entirely by God, but they are made for the benefit of man and for the glory of God. Jesus is the representative of Man within the Trinity, and He fulfills all of the requirements of the covenant that apply to man. Colleen | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 11885 Registered: 12-2003 |
One more thing: the Davidic covenant is also unconditional (2 Samuel 7:8-17). God promised David a throne, dynasty, and ruler forever, and this promise did not depend upon any promise or affirmation from David. It was unconditional. Yet here again, Jesus is the One who received the correction "with the rod of men and the strokes of the sons of men" (2 Sam 7:14). And Jesus is the One who will sit on the throne of David when He returns to rule. Unconditional promises mean man does NOTHING to ensure that they happen; they happen because God promised. Yet they still have "two sides"—Jesus fulfills the human side as our Substitute and Representative. Colleen | ||
| Hec Registered user Username: Hec Post Number: 1453 Registered: 3-2009 |
Colleen says: Could you elaborate on that? How do we get that? Are there any other Bible passages that would show light on that? (WOW, that "show light" sounds too SDA, doesn't it?" Hec | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 11892 Registered: 12-2003 |
Hec, we know this: God made the covenant while Abraham slept. God's presence was frequently symbolized by fire (see Ex. 3:2; 14:24; 19:18; 1 Kings 18:38; Acts 2:3-4). In the case of His covenant with Abraham, it is significant that two fiery objects moved among the sacrificial pieces because in the New Covenant, which fulfills the Abrahamic covenant, Jesus, as our Substitute, satisfies all of God's requirements and reconciles us to God. While I can't "prove" that the two pieces—the lamp and the furnace—represent Jesus and the Father, we know that they represent "God", and Abraham was out cold, so to speak. The fact that there are two pieces moving among the sacrifice foreshadows Jesus' fulfilling all the shadows of sacrifice and propitiation, and the Father's acceptance of Jesus as our Substitute. Looking back at Abraham from our place on this side of the cross, it's possible to see that Jesus keeps the covenant for us, and Jesus was represented in the Trinity's covenant with Abraham when God promised him seed, land, and blessing. Colleen | ||
| Hec Registered user Username: Hec Post Number: 1455 Registered: 3-2009 |
Thanks, Colleen. Hec |
