| Author |
Message |
Gorancroatia
Registered user
Username: Gorancroatia
Post Number: 53
Registered: 6-2010
| | Posted on Thursday, August 19, 2010 - 3:13 am: |     |
If it is all finished on the cross, what are we doing here? |
Helovesme2
Registered user
Username: Helovesme2
Post Number: 2520
Registered: 8-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, August 19, 2010 - 4:57 am: | |
What Jesus told us to do - going into all the world preaching the good news and trusting that He will return in due time as He has promised. |
Gorancroatia
Registered user
Username: Gorancroatia
Post Number: 55
Registered: 6-2010
| | Posted on Thursday, August 19, 2010 - 8:53 am: | |
Full version: Mat 28:19,20
Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, [even] unto the end of the world. Amen.
"Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you" - there is a beginning of all disputes : WHAT TO TEACH ? |
Yenc
Registered user
Username: Yenc
Post Number: 327
Registered: 6-2008
| | Posted on Thursday, August 19, 2010 - 11:57 am: | |
Jesus finished His atonement on the cross! His life as the "sacrificial Lamb of God" was complete! He did not mean the whole world was finished with existence--obviously it was not--we are here, aren't we? But the plan was fulfilled--He came to die to save humans, and He did it! No further work for Him to complete the atonement! SDAs teach "incomplete atonement": they teach He still had to wait until 1844 to sit with the Father on the throne, and begin the "Investigative Judgment" and that the atonement cannot be complete until the IJ is done. But NOTHING in the Bible says this! IJ is a false doctrine that contradicts the words of Jesus! It cannot be supported by Scripture alone ("sola scriptura"). The story of the IJ was developed to defend the false prophecies that Jesus would come back to earth in 1844.
You ask, What are we to teach? Jesus left us with many lessons. All of them show His love and mercy for repentant sinners, and coming judgment for those who refuse to repent, refuse His atonement, refuse to believe His words. We must teach people about the Cross, the Resurrection, and the Second Coming!
What "commandments" did He leave for us? He commanded only to "love God with your whole heart, soul, mind, and strength, and love your neighbor as yourself."
That is what we must teach! Not tithe-paying; not vegetarianism; not "no-worship-on-Sunday"; not perfect behavior for salvation; not "don't wear jewelry"; not false doctrines of imaginary Investigative Judgment; not belief in the false prophet, EGW!!! |
Flyinglady
Registered user
Username: Flyinglady
Post Number: 8453
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, August 19, 2010 - 12:22 pm: | |
We are to teach that Jesus was born, lived, died and was resurrected for us. That is the Gosped of Jesus Christ.
Diana L |
River
Registered user
Username: River
Post Number: 6553
Registered: 9-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, August 19, 2010 - 12:33 pm: | |
What is to dispute? What is so hard about to what teach?
Teach the word of God.
How to pray... our father who art in heaven.
How to serve...Jesus demonstration of washing the disciples feet.
To love one one another as he has loved us,as he requested, preach the simple gospel of salvation. |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 11589
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, August 19, 2010 - 8:49 pm: | |
When we are born again and experience the life of Jesus making us new, bringing us to life, there is no question about what to teach. We teach what Jesus said: the kingdom of heaven is here. We preach repentance, belief in Jesus, and baptism. And all of it is rooted in the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus.
We preach Jesus the Lamb of God who fulfilled all the shadows of the law, the prophets, and the psalms (Luke 24:44).
We preach Jesus—and exhort one another to lay aside the deeds of darkness and to put on the armor of light (Romans 13).
And Goran--part of those deeds of darkness we MUST lay aside is the holding onto the authority or "insight" of an extra-biblical prophet.
Colleen |
Gorancroatia
Registered user
Username: Gorancroatia
Post Number: 57
Registered: 6-2010
| | Posted on Thursday, August 19, 2010 - 11:18 pm: | |
I have no holdings onto the E.W. authority. Did I ever claim that I have?
Only Bible, and you still did not give attention to Words: "........all things whatsoever I have commanded you".
Thanks for your claims that I am not born again. That is a good way to end conversation.
Word on the other hand teach that we should be interested to fully understand Gods teachings. |
Yenc
Registered user
Username: Yenc
Post Number: 330
Registered: 6-2008
| | Posted on Friday, August 20, 2010 - 7:12 am: | |
Goran, Please see my comments above on August 19 11:57 pm regarding the gospel truth and the commandment we must teach, and the "false commandments" that SDA doctrine likes to focus on. I hope that makes it a little clearer.
(I did not ignore your question about 'what to teach', but the thread was adjusted and you may have missed my response. I'm praying for you, Goran, that the Holy Spirit will help you to understand, even though I am not fluent in Croatian language!) |
Asurprise
Registered user
Username: Asurprise
Post Number: 1360
Registered: 7-2007
| | Posted on Friday, August 20, 2010 - 11:22 am: | |
Goran; if Jesus had just taken those who were ready, to Heaven and ended everything as soon as He rose from the dead, where would the Gentiles be? Jesus' death removed that barrier from the "unclean" Gentiles (represented by "unclean" meats - Leviticus 20:24-26; Acts 10:13-28), so now both Jews and Gentiles equally share in the gospel.
If Jesus had ended everything then, there wouldn't be a new covenant with the seal of the Holy Spirit. There wouldn't be "good news" to preach. |
Gorancroatia
Registered user
Username: Gorancroatia
Post Number: 58
Registered: 6-2010
| | Posted on Friday, August 20, 2010 - 10:59 pm: | |
Gospel is a one thing and it is preached, but teaching is separate thing that gives knowledge.
Tts 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
Tts 2:12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;
Tts 2:13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;
Tts 2:14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works. |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 11593
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, August 21, 2010 - 12:31 am: | |
Goran, I was not even thinking about whether or not you were born again...I'm sorry I sounded accusatory. I was actually trying to address the question of what we preach.
Colleen |
Freedom55
Registered user
Username: Freedom55
Post Number: 68
Registered: 3-2008
| | Posted on Saturday, August 21, 2010 - 5:47 pm: | |
Gorancroatia, you asked the question "If it was all finished at the cross, what are we doing here?" I find your question unclear. What are you including in the word "IT"?
What did Jesus mean when he cried out from the cross "It is finished" John 19:30 ? Something called "IT" was finished at the cross. |
Gorancroatia
Registered user
Username: Gorancroatia
Post Number: 59
Registered: 6-2010
| | Posted on Saturday, August 21, 2010 - 11:45 pm: | |
IT - I was referring to IJ dispute -- Atonement.
I see that Yenc and some others praying for me to see the truth...
I just think that no mater what SDA teaches, you will not find in Bible that Gods Law is abolished.
Majority of Adventists received Adventism first, and than just some of us come to the faith and Christianity, some don't. Those who don't endorse legalism are very liberal, and they do not keep 10s comm. That last group is in majority so we can not identified SDAs to be legalistic or to hold to E.W., that is not true. Attack on E.W. is from inside SDA. SDAs are not living in fear from God, they on the contrary are very self sure to be saved in spite to their liberal life.
SDAs don't have holdings to E.W. only claim that they have. In Great Controversy book there is statement that there will be a new adventists movement (not church) to proclaim 3th AM. SDAs are doing they part in Gods plan, also. |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 11598
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, August 22, 2010 - 12:41 am: | |
Goran, read Galatians and Hebrews, and ask God to help you read the Bible without an Adventist understanding. Adventists use the same words Christians use, but their definitions are different.
The law is a created thing—God gave it at a certain time (430 years AFTER Abraham—and it was to last until a certain time—until the Seed (Galatians 3). The law cannot be the eternal "thing" everyone honors. Only God is eternal and holy and sovereign. He can give and take as He pleases, and He has done so.
The Gentiles used to be far from God, without hope and without God in the world, but now we have been brought near through the blood of Christ (Ephesians 2). God has had different "administrations" of His plan through the history of the world.
Now we are in the new covenant, and Jesus Himself has fulfilled the law and has replaced the law as our standard of behavior and conviction of sin. The book of Galatians is extremely clear about this, as is the book of Hebrews and the book of Romans.
If we worry about keeping and honoring the law, we eclipse Jesus. We are to focus on honoring Him and living by the Spirit.
Hebrews 10 says that if breaking the law brought death, how much MORE SERIOUS is trampling the blood of the covenant!
Jesus' blood paid the price the law stated was our doom if we broke the law. Now we don't function in relationship to the law; we function in relationship to Jesus. We are not lost for disobeying the law. We are lost for unbelief, for refusing the Sin Bearer who fulfilled the law (John 3:18).
The law keeps us focussed on behavior and obedience. Jesus keeps us focussed on Himself and on surrender. The law gives us nothing to which to surrender. It only demands.
Jesus asks us to give up our control and to surrender our temptations to Him instead of fighting them. Instead of "resisting" sin with will power, we release our desire and "right" to sin to Jesus and allow Him to direct the moments when we we are faced with temptation.
The law does not give us this freedom to surrender.
Colleen |
Gorancroatia
Registered user
Username: Gorancroatia
Post Number: 60
Registered: 6-2010
| | Posted on Sunday, August 22, 2010 - 3:02 am: | |
Collen , you mix so much issues here..
I do not know on what subject to replay.
First, Is there a line in Romans, Galatians and Hebrews to buck up you claims ?
Second, Did Abraham, Isac and Jakob and Mosses surrender them selfs to God ? What is new in Romans that was not already with Abraham ? |
Gorancroatia
Registered user
Username: Gorancroatia
Post Number: 61
Registered: 6-2010
| | Posted on Sunday, August 22, 2010 - 3:05 am: | |
and......
We are not saved by the Law but that did not abolish the Law. It is same to say that apples abolish grapes. There is two separate things. |
Gorancroatia
Registered user
Username: Gorancroatia
Post Number: 62
Registered: 6-2010
| | Posted on Monday, August 23, 2010 - 11:35 pm: | |
and for finish:
It is not knowledge, no study, no religion or faith, but the implementation of Christ's righteousness, that the righteous requirement of God's law is realized in us, and so to please God. |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 11605
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 24, 2010 - 10:38 pm: | |
Goran, what is "the implementation of Christ's righteousness" by which "God's law is realized in us"?
How do you understand "God's law" to be "realized in us"? How do we "implement Christ's righteousness?"
Abraham lived BEFORE the law. He believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness (Genesis 15:1-6; Romans 4). He is the father of ALL who believe, both Jew and Gentile. His being counted righteous did not depend upon the law in any sense.
Romans 4:13-15
quote:For the promise to Abraham or to his descendants that he would be heir of the world was not through the Law, but through the righteousness of faith. For if those who are of the Law are heirs, faith is made void and the promise is nullified; for the Law brings about wrath,but where there is no law, there also is no violation.
And Romans 4:w3-24
quote:Therefore it was also credited to [Abraham] as righteousness. Now not for his sake only was it written that it was credited to him, but for our sake also, to whom it will be credited, as those who believe in Him who raised Jesus our Lord from the dead.
Abraham did not have "the righteous requirement of God's law" realized in him. Rather, he was credited with righteousness because he simply believed God and trusted Him to keep His promises...without understanding HOW He would do that (see Romans 4:16-21).
We are likewise credited with righteousness when we place our faith in the finished work of Jesus (Romans 5:1-2; Philippians 2:8-11). Nowhere in the New Testament is "righteousness" described as "God's law realized in us". Instead, it is described as something completely outside of us—something alien to us, as Philippians 2:9 says,
quote:…not having a righteousness of my own derived from the Law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which comes from God on the basis of faith…
Never is this righteousness described as our coming to the place of observing the law. On the contrary, it is the actual, literal righteousness of Jesus Himself, which He has in Himself, that is credited to us. It is not "imparted" to us; that is, we do not begin to assimilate Christ's power to become obedient. On the contrary, we are credited with the 100% complete perfection of Jesus. God looks at us and sees Jesus. We are accounted righteous; we do not become righteous.
Ephesians 2:4-6 eve explains that this spiritual life, this being credited with Christ's righteousness happens "when we were dead in our transgressions". It does not happen when we agree that God's law is good. It happens when we believe, and God brings us to life at that moment, seals us with the Holy Spirit (Eph 1:13-14), and we are hidden with Christ in God (Colossians 3:3). Thereafter, God looks at us and sees Jesus, not our imperfection. He literally sees Jesus, and God credits Jesus' life to us. Completely.
Christ's righteousness is never something we "implement". The Bible NEVER describes it that way. On the contrary, Christ's righteousness is something that belongs to Jesus alone because He alone is righteous—and when we BELIEVE Him and accept His sacrifice, God literally puts Jesus' personal righteousness in our "account". He credits us with Jesus' life, death, and obedience. It is never OUR obedience that God credits to us, and we do not become obedient by "implementing" Christ's righteousness.
Once we are credited with Christ's righteousness, the Holy Spirit teaches us to say no to ungodliness...but this process is not part of salvation. It happens after we are saved. It happens because we are saved. It does not make us more securely saved...our sanctification is a miracle that happens because we are alive with the life of Jesus through the indwelling Holy Spirit.
The only way we "please God" is when we place our trust in Jesus so He can count Himself as our righteousness. Romans 3:9-18 details the fact that NO ONE can please God, seek God, fear God, or be useful to God. That means NO ONE.
Romans 3:19-24 explains that by the works of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin.
Moreover, Romans 3:21-22 say,
quote:But now apart from the Law the righteousness of God has been manifested, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe, for there is no distinction;
And verse 24:
quote:being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus.
Goran, we receive Christ's righteousness credited to our account when we BELIEVE. It has NOTHING WHATSOEVER to do with the law, with obedience, with commandments...it is only about believing God and trusting Him. It means we surrender to Him our entire life—our efforts to please Him, to show we love Him—everything—and RECEIVE the life of Jesus as our Substitute.
Romans 8 explains that we learn to live by the Spirit after we are saved and to put to death the deeds of the flesh. But this process of learning obedience does not ensure salvation. It is the RESULT of salvation.
We NEVER "implement" Christ's righteousness. It is not a tool or power granted to us for our help. It is the attribute of the Lord Jesus alone—and God credits it to our account. We do not become righteous. We do not implement Christ's righteousness.
Colleen |
1john2v27nlt
Registered user
Username: 1john2v27nlt
Post Number: 93
Registered: 5-2009
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 25, 2010 - 7:49 am: | |
Christ's righteousness is a 'garment' we put on - the wedding garment of Matt 22.
When the King looked at the guests in the hall of the wedding feast, what was He looking for??
Was He looking to see who was clean & who was dirty?
How could He tell who was clean & who was dirty (by sight) if they had on the wedding garment?
He looked to see who had on the garment. NOT who is which denomination, who keeps the 10 commandments, who is clean, who is dirty?
Why was the man thrown out of the wedding feast?
It was because he did not have on the wedding garment ie the righteousness of Jesus Christ. Those who accepted the invitation & put on the garment were welcomed to the feast. The man accepted the invitation but did not put on the garment. Those who stayed all looked like Jesus - His cleaness, His obedience, His perfectness. They had 'put on Christ Jesus.'
J9 |
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