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Dennis
Registered user
Username: Dennis
Post Number: 2071
Registered: 4-2000
| | Posted on Friday, August 06, 2010 - 7:16 pm: |     |
It is helpful to understand that when the late Walter Martin began to seek answers from the seasoned SDA hierarchy in the 1950s, he was a newbie in his career as a cult watcher (around age 30). Thus, the grandfatherly SDA "brethern" treated him like a son. Moreover, they knew how to slap backs and entertain (smile). Martin's royal treatment by the SDA leaders was unprecedented in his new career. No other supposed cult treated him so well.
Consequently, the SDA leaders focused intensely upon him to deceive him. It was their awaited magic moment to be removed from the cult list. The SDA apologists successfully jumped through several complicated hoops to attain their goal. In their view, this outright deception was worth every effort to subdue the opposition. As former Adventists, we are not surprised by the SDA tactics. Sadly, they are still busy doing the very same things today. They lie so often that it doesn't seem sinful any longer.
Dennis Fischer |
River
Registered user
Username: River
Post Number: 6480
Registered: 9-2006
| | Posted on Friday, August 06, 2010 - 8:28 pm: | |
Thats the reason why you have to know Adventism going in.
Perhaps that is the reason why I felt led to dig up the answers the hard way. It takes a lot longer, but the answers you come up with are solid, and you can't be fooled by them.
He apparently didn't know Adventism, because in order to be deceived they had to have more information than he did. I think he was foolish in going in there expecting to accomplish anything without knowing every nuance of Adventism.
Perhaps he thought he knew enough by scratching the surface of Adventism, but I am telling you right now you better be prepared to turn every stone carefully, sift every gravel twice.
Now you might ask, 'River, why did it take you so long to find what Adventism is made of?
The answer is what Colleen just gave you. This is why a former, whom I have very much respect for, said this of an Adventist, 'Oh River, she is a good Christian, I have known her all my life."
They know all the right words to say, and its sad when even formers are fooled. That person is still hanging from that Adventist tree, and when the fruit hits the ground, it will burst open and the worms will come crawling out that were hidden inside, steadily eating away at the soft meat.
Lets listen in on Jesus a minute in Matthew 7:13 "Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it.
Matthew 7:14 "Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it.
Matthew 7:15 "Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves.
Matthew 7:16 "You will know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes from thornbushes or figs from thistles?
Matthew 7:17 "Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit.
Matthew 7:18 "A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit.
Matthew 7:19 "Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.
Matthew 7:20 "Therefore by their fruits you will know them.
Now is he talking about us watching other Christians who make mistakes, betimes walk in the flesh, or tempted and carried away by sin temporarily?
I don't think so. Half the time we are so busy watching other Christians that we miss what we should be seeing. Listen to some of his words, I'm going to come out of context just for a minute, not to fool you, but to emphasize what he is saying.
"Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing,Do men gather grapes from thornbushes or figs from thistles?
Sheeps clothing (acting like Christains, claiming they are a sheep, trying to look like a sheep, walk like a sheep, sleep like a sheep, eat like a sheep.
Gather grapes from thornbushes? Now picture it in your mind, a big old sharp prickly thornbush with two inch thorns covering it from top to bottom, you ram your hand in there it'll stick you good. Can you find grapes in a thornbush? well...can you?
Can you go to the Adventist church and find truth? Now I ask you,can you?
The fruit that Adventism sheds is deception, misery, uncertainty, fear, torment, and they are dang happy while they furnish it. Thats because a bad fruit don't know its a bad fruit, it just hangs off the thornbush that bred it. It don't know its a ugly old seed pod, that when it hits the ground,all it can produce is more thornbushes.
Now this thing is exceedly,EXCEEDINGLY, deceptive, and its got something like a magnetic pull to it that I cannot quite explain.
Maybe like a whirl pool in the middle of a river, the outsides of the water that is going round and round seems calm, but that current is slowly pulling you toward it's center, then when it gets you closer, the current is stronger and stronger, and it takes you down to the bottom and holds you there.
Thats why evangelicals get embroiled in Adventism, they are not aware of this pull that already has them. It calls to them and envelopes them in its soothing embrace, and fifteen or twenty years later they stagger out, bewildered, hurt and bruised, God didn't do that, they did, by not listening to him, do me gather grapes from a thornbush?
Evangelical women marry Adventist men. The first thing you know, they are sucked into that, and it pulls them down to where they will shed a ten thousand tears before the whistle blows.
Its like Colleen said, God redeems everything, and waste nothing, or something to that effect, but don't try to tell me that its his will that a woman rock her babies, and cry herself to sleep, only to wake up exhausted and cry again.
Jeremiah 29:11 For I know the thoughts that I think toward you, saith the LORD, thoughts of peace, and not of evil, to give you an expected end.
Now I've said way too much.
River |
Freedom55
Registered user
Username: Freedom55
Post Number: 67
Registered: 3-2008
| | Posted on Friday, August 06, 2010 - 9:30 pm: | |
River I like what you said about calling a spade a spade. We seem to be reluctant to come right out and say it. So maybe you haven't said enough yet! Thanks for your thoughts which have helped me a lot as I have emerged from the SDA cult. I am one of those that is hurt battered and bruised but glad to be on the right path now. |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 11532
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Friday, August 06, 2010 - 11:46 pm: | |
River, exactly right on. Thank you for saying it clearly.
Freedom, I am so happy to hear you saying confidently that you have emerged—battle scarred and bruised, but on the right track. It is painful and difficult, but it is SO worth it to follow when Jesus says "Come!"
Colleen |
Gorancroatia
Registered user
Username: Gorancroatia
Post Number: 39
Registered: 6-2010
| | Posted on Saturday, August 07, 2010 - 3:11 am: | |
When I watch Walter on video he seems well informed.SDAs deceive him by theirs evangelical efforts to claim that Bible is not interpreted by E.W. and SDAs realy think that because "thought inspiration" doctrine, which is not evangelical, and by what they agree with many Bible critics. The fruits, are different from person to person, and if the good fruits are to be measured by "not to be screwed " than Abraham was screwed and Jakov, and Isac, and Abel, and Elia and Jeremiah and Isaiah.....and Poul, ....... and Jesus, but if fruits means what is red in Galatians, than it is measured by "what one endure in sufferings" like D.Bonehoeffer said. |
Yenc
Registered user
Username: Yenc
Post Number: 268
Registered: 6-2008
| | Posted on Saturday, August 07, 2010 - 7:36 am: | |
Gorancroatia,
You asked "Is it possible to find truth in SDA?" Yes, you can! The problem is that it is so mixed with lies, that it is impossible to sort it out! Like if you mix sugar with dirt: Is there sugar in the dirt? Yes, there is--but you cannot sift it out! Satan is very sneaky and shrewd--he always mixes truth and lies together--so it can't be separated! If Satan used only lies, sorting would be easy, and you could recognize the lies and avoid them. If SDA had only lies, it would be easy to see! But mixing truth and lies makes it confusing, so you can't tell which is lies, which is truth! This is Satan's way to catch people.
We avoid the mixture and seek the pure truth somewhere else, where the "dirt" is not mixed with the "sweetness" of God's truth!
God bless you, Gorancroatia, as you seek God's pure truth, not mixed with lies! |
Gorancroatia
Registered user
Username: Gorancroatia
Post Number: 42
Registered: 6-2010
| | Posted on Saturday, August 07, 2010 - 8:02 am: | |
Where do I have to go to seek pure truth? |
Yenc
Registered user
Username: Yenc
Post Number: 270
Registered: 6-2008
| | Posted on Saturday, August 07, 2010 - 9:03 am: | |
When I want to know God's truth on an issue, first I pray for guidance! Then I go to my Bible.
If you have a good concordance, you can find everything the Bible says about a subject. Make a list of related words on your subject. Then look up one of those words in the concordance and read all the texts listed. Do this for all the related words.
For example, if I wanted to know about the Holy Spirit, I would look up every text listed under "Spirit" and "Ghost" because the Holy Spirit may be called by either of those two names. Then you will discover other words in the margin of the Bible by some of those texts, like "Comforter."
Also, don't just read the single verse where those words appear; read the whole chapter, or at least the verses before and after the ones with the selected words in them. You need the context to get the whole concept.
God's Holy Word is the best place to find God's pure truth!!
I just looked up the word "seek" in my concordance, and found a lot of wonderful verses on this subject. "Seek and you will find!"
Psalm 27
Praying for you, Gorancroatia! |
1john2v27nlt
Registered user
Username: 1john2v27nlt
Post Number: 58
Registered: 5-2009
| | Posted on Saturday, August 07, 2010 - 12:11 pm: | |
Gorancroatia,
Read the whole entire Bible from beginning to end, & when you finish, begin again. Keep doing this. As Yenc said, Pray for guidance, pray not to be deceived, pray to be led into ALL TRUTH. Keep reading & rereading. This is how you begin to get the big picture - to find God, to see Him, to know Him.
There are 3 parts to our devotional life - prayer, studying, & reading. Reading is the most neglected aspect. It is crucial to read the whole word of God because then we will have things in context & when we hear a teaching or read others' teachings we will have a background in the whole word of God. It is the Holy Spirit who convicts & converts & gives understanding.
Don't worry about trying to understand everything. No need to stop & look up everything. It is God's business to give understanding. Our business is to 'program' or load the software into our brains - so the Holy Spirit can work with it to teach us. God promises that His word will accomplish what He wants, that it will not return void (empty).
That's not to say that we don't study & look things up as Yenc said, it's just that we need to also simply be doing the reading. Studying without having the context of the whole word of God can be treacherous.
Bless you, J9 |
Gcfrankie
Registered user
Username: Gcfrankie
Post Number: 686
Registered: 1-2007
| | Posted on Saturday, August 07, 2010 - 12:27 pm: | |
Gorancroatia, another way of seeking out the truth is to pick a book of the bible and going chapter by chapter and researching out everything it teaches and then add notes by each chapter about what it is saying right in your bible. Also having a good study bible helps. Yes it is a lot of hard work but the rewards are so awesome in the end. |
Yenc
Registered user
Username: Yenc
Post Number: 272
Registered: 6-2008
| | Posted on Saturday, August 07, 2010 - 2:00 pm: | |
I totally agree! Read and study the whole Bible, and don't merely use isolated "proof texting" like we learned in SDA Bible studies. It is good to read through from Genesis to Revelation, it is good to study by subjects, and there are many other good ways. Sometimes I simply need a Psalm or two to comfort or sustain me, or to remind me of God's care and love. The important thing is to GO TO GOD'S WORD and not take man's opinion for your foundation! God guarantees that if you prayerfully go to His Word, He will guide you into all truth. |
Bobalou
Registered user
Username: Bobalou
Post Number: 75
Registered: 2-2005
| | Posted on Saturday, August 07, 2010 - 4:01 pm: | |
Do we have to read the "begots"? :-) |
Yenc
Registered user
Username: Yenc
Post Number: 274
Registered: 6-2008
| | Posted on Saturday, August 07, 2010 - 4:27 pm: | |
Surprisingly, the "begots" have a purpose there, too! They help us understand that the falsehood called "evolution" is also a lie! The earth is not billions of years old! It did not "evolve" from "mud-to-microbes-to-man-to-me in innumerable millennia, but only about 6-7 thousand years! The geneology shows the human side of Jesus' heritage, and that we humans--all of us--are physically related to our Saviour, the Son of man, the Son of God! |
1john2v27nlt
Registered user
Username: 1john2v27nlt
Post Number: 60
Registered: 5-2009
| | Posted on Saturday, August 07, 2010 - 4:54 pm: | |
Yes read the begots but don't labor over them. It's OK to read quickly. One day you may be surprised to find connections or names registering something. What needs to be revealed will be revealed. When you read & reread you will pass this way again, & again, & so on. You will notice different things at different times & be surprised at things that seemingly you never 'read' before. It's OK to let God be in charge. <smile> |
Flyinglady
Registered user
Username: Flyinglady
Post Number: 8408
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, August 07, 2010 - 5:35 pm: | |
It is also okay to start reading the Bible at the NT. Read all of it then go to the OT. It was reading the NT that God used to call me out of adventism.
Diana L |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 11537
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, August 07, 2010 - 11:18 pm: | |
Yes, Diana, I agree! For us who were Adventists, sometimes it's better to start in the NT because we just don't know it as well.
I've found that a really helpful way to study is to pick a book, such as Galatians or Hebrews or John or Romans, and read it. After reading it straight through, go back to the beginning and look up the marginal references for each word or phrase. This part of the study will go much slower--perhaps one to five or so verses day. Keep a notebook so you can keep track of the things you read from other books of the Bible that are referenced in the margins.
This method of studying takes you deeply into the word and begins to help you make connections with the rest of the Bible. For example, when we studied Hebrews in our FAF study several years ago, when we got to chapter 11, we pursued each name listed in that faith chapter, went to the places throughout the OT where each person's story was originally found, and we learned about each person in the faith chapter, including some of the less-well-known characters like Jepthah.
It took us over a year to do Hebrews because we spent quite a bit of time in the OT learning. It was during that study that I began to piece together the life of David and the ways he was a type of Christ. His name occurs throughout the OT, from 1&2 Samuel to the Kings, the Psalms, etc. I learned how he captured Jerusalem from the Jebusites and established it as his royal city--how he helped create the temple service, even though he wasn't a levite, by writing songs and establishing part of the liturgy and its performance, etc.
Inductive study, where we start by reading and then finding connections between that book and other books, is just amazing. The Bible begins to hang together like a seamless whole.
Our past Bible studies that we've done in FAF are online here, in case anyone wants to use them: http://www.formeradventist.com/studies/index.html
Colleen |
Skeeter
Registered user
Username: Skeeter
Post Number: 888
Registered: 12-2007
| | Posted on Saturday, August 07, 2010 - 11:19 pm: | |
I used to think the "begats" were pretty boring.. then I listened to one of Mark Martins sermons explaining how he used the "begats" to explain the Gospel to a Jewish man (who is now Christian) I will try and find the link as I am sure I have the sermon downloaded somewhere but cant remember the name of the sermon (it isnt "the begats") although I should have saved it with that name as it would be easier to find. LOL |
Gorancroatia
Registered user
Username: Gorancroatia
Post Number: 44
Registered: 6-2010
| | Posted on Sunday, August 08, 2010 - 5:37 am: | |
I think it went in other way that I was expecting. I do not see what is here meant to be a truth. I tried to go into SdAs understanding term "present truth", but seems you peoples think that to be saved altogether means to claim that Ew is false pr. and that Sads is a cult. Looks like conditional to me. I don t think so, neither W.Martin did and he looks 50 not 30 years old , on tape. He is no final authority but who is ? So, are you little to judgmental for sdas ? Like SDas are to other churches, you give them the same treatment here ? |
Yenc
Registered user
Username: Yenc
Post Number: 280
Registered: 6-2008
| | Posted on Sunday, August 08, 2010 - 10:16 am: | |
Hopefully, we are not condemning the people who have been deceived. But we must refute the false doctrines that we were taught! And a large part of that includes pointing out the deceptions actively practiced by EGW and others, the errors still being taught today. When the leaders of the church try to hide the lies and protect their positions, we have to work harder to show the truth.
All of us have been deceived in our beliefs in the SDA church, because we believed what we were taught. It is only in recent years that the plagiarism in EGW's writings has become widely known. Now it has been proven! EGW claimed her words came only from God, but she copied many, many, many paragraphs, and even nearly whole books from previous writers, without giving them credit! The church found out and tried to cover it up, so we have to expose it. We believed she was a true Bible scholar; now we know she was very wrong in many doctrines. We believed she was a true prophet; now we know that many of her prophecies never came true--she was a false prophet, and God condemns false prophets; we have to show the people this. The New Testament Covenant replaced the Old Testament laws, but the church ignores this; we have to teach it.
No, Gorancroatia, we do not hate the SDA people! We hate the lies!
The SDA men who talked to Walter Martin lied to him and convinced him that SDA is simply another Christian church, with a few unique but harmless differences. But those men lied, and Walter Martin did not see that! So they rewrote the "book of doctrines" to support the lies!
No, we do not believe that salvation depends on refuting EGW! But EGW taught many wrong things about salvation, and we need to show people the truth--that salvation is ONLY in accepting Jesus, and that NO ONE is saved by keeping the 10 Commandments! The SDA church teaches that to be saved, you have to keep the 7th day Sabbath, so we have to show that this is false--salvation is in Jesus, that HE IS OUR REST (Hebrews 4) and whatever day you gather on to worship doesn't mean saved or lost!
In the last few years, hundreds and hundreds of SDA ministers have seen that the church is wrong on many doctrines, and these ministers have left SDA to teach TRUTH!
On this Forum, we are trying to help people make the transition out of a false system to new life in Jesus. Yes, sometimes we speak harshly, sometimes bitterly, because we were also deceived! Please forgive us if we are sometimes angry or too intense! But now we must tell the truth! We care too much to sit on our hands and do nothing!
The term "present truth" is often used to excuse the failure of prophecies that didn't come true. That is why we don't like the term.
Gorancroatia, Yes, sometimes we care so much it hurts! But we are not trying to hurt the innocent ones. We just want them to know the truth! |
Gorancroatia
Registered user
Username: Gorancroatia
Post Number: 45
Registered: 6-2010
| | Posted on Sunday, August 08, 2010 - 11:34 pm: | |
Yes, Yenc, I agree. I even have original book White Lie, send to me by Rea himself.
I just think that we all are sometimes to zeal for refuting Sda that we are narrow to see some good staff. When I read book of Acts it is clear that first church recognize judaist who believed Jesus to be Christians also like pagans also, so even Peter was rebuked by Paul for to be one time decieved, but Paul never said that Peter was not christian any more! So that is Biblical approach. |
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