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Jeremy
Registered user
Username: Jeremy
Post Number: 3344
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 17, 2010 - 12:01 pm: |     |
Paul rejoiced when Christ was preached (meaning the true Jesus Christ), but not when a false christ or a false jesus was preached. See Matthew 24:24 and 1 Corinthians 11:3-4:
"For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will show great signs and wonders, so as to mislead, if possible, even the elect." (Matthew 24:24 NASB.)
"3But I am afraid that, as the serpent deceived Eve by his craftiness, your minds will be led astray from the simplicity and purity of devotion to Christ.
4For if one comes and preaches another Jesus whom we have not preached, or you receive a different spirit which you have not received, or a different gospel which you have not accepted, you bear this beautifully." (2 Corinthians 11:3-4 NASB.)
Jeremy |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 11580
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 17, 2010 - 12:51 pm: | |
Goran, I just want to clarify that the "research" of those at the Centers for Apologetics Research is not being done in the United States. These ministries are in Europe, Africa, and South America, and they are run and operated by Christian nationals native to those countries. They struggle with the influence and effects of the cults.
You can see the local websites for these ministries from this link, and you can read about their local ministries: http://www.thecenters.org/outreach.aspx
Preaching Christ is the key. As Mary and Jeremy have both mentioned, though, the problem is that these cults do not preach the same "jesus" or the biblical gospel.
To be sure, God finds and reveals Himself to those who desire to know Him, and He reveals Himself through His own word when it is available--but when a person has been taught a false gospel, it is extremely difficult to help that person KNOW thy have been taught falsely, and the false gospel holds them in bondage.
Just because people "preach Jesus" does not mean they are preaching the real, biblical Jesus. The texts Mary and Jeremy posted above are serious warnings and exhortations.
Colleen |
Hec
Registered user
Username: Hec
Post Number: 1272
Registered: 3-2009
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 17, 2010 - 1:04 pm: | |
It seems to me that Paul, in Phil 1:15-19 is talking about Christ being preached. The difference was not in the content of the preaching but in the motivation, "envy, strife, contention, etc." therefore, Paul could accept the content even when it was done to "add affliction to his bonds."
That would be totally different from preaching a different gospel, which Paul condemned in Gal 1:6,7.
Hec |
Yenc
Registered user
Username: Yenc
Post Number: 320
Registered: 6-2008
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 17, 2010 - 1:57 pm: | |
Gorancroatia,
Think of this: Kidnappers also talk sweetly and give cookies and candies to little children, but it is because they want to lure the children away from safe homes! Hitler promised to make Germany a strong country, but after he got the people to cooperate, he did very evil things. JWs help deaf people--to get good publicity, then they teach wrong doctrines. Mormons have a wonderful choir--people come to hear the beautiful music at the Temple, and they hear lies about Jesus written by false prophet, Joseph Smith. SDAs provide good services, too--disaster relief, big hospitals, educational services, for bad motives--to get people to listen to false doctrines and to follow the false prophet, EGW! Satan gave beautiful fruit to Adam and Eve, ... |
Yenc
Registered user
Username: Yenc
Post Number: 321
Registered: 6-2008
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 17, 2010 - 2:27 pm: | |
I almost forgot the most important advice: Jesus said, "Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves." Matt. 7:15 |
Gorancroatia
Registered user
Username: Gorancroatia
Post Number: 50
Registered: 6-2010
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 17, 2010 - 10:36 pm: | |
Maybe we misunderstand, I just ask, in manner that I acknowledge all you said, and than must conclude that in last 2000 years there was almost nothing of the true Gospel preached.
Every body was some cult, RC is the biggest cult,so what do we have now then? World that is not introduced to true Gospel, because "it was not the "real biblical Jesus". OK. but what that means: that the Christ commandment to go, preach, baptize in the name of Father, Son and Holy Goust was not done?
Mary , Croatia is not lack of Christians, Croats are by nationality Roman Catholics, some 98% of Croats declare to be RC Christians. Pope visit Croatia 3 times in last few years, and preach to few millions peoples on stadiums! It is cynical to say that God is now calling me to preach true Gospel in Croatia, there is history behind, milliard peoples die in RC faith in last 2000 years, and what do you say that it was in vain faith in False Gospel, and just now you and I know he True one?! It sounds like SDAs back in 1844, they also think that the World history begin with them, like there was no life before them.
The difference between USA and rest is that in USA you have much churches for every taste and you do not think that you lack of Christians, but do you real not lacking?
And you miss the main point : "whosoever call the Name of Jesus will be saved". Muslims do not call the Name of Jesus.
If your theology is correct we all must be sure to know the real biblical Jesus to obtain the saving faith. It sounds gnostic to me. That means all peoples must be some little theologians to know the True ONE, and than have faith in Him.
Is it not sufficient to come to the point of calling the Name of Jesus ?
Sorry if not address to all thoughts but tried to summarize. |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 11582
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 18, 2010 - 12:14 am: | |
Actually, Jesus said the one requirement to see the kingdom of heaven is being born of the Spirit. It's not theological knowledge; it's believing God and His promises and casting ourselves upon His mercy, letting go of everything we love for the sake of following Him, as He told the rich young ruler to do.
As long as a person believes his obedience is part of the package God is looking for, that person cannot cast himself upon God in utter trust.
Calling on the name of Jesus is absolutely "enough"--unless one is calling upon a "different" Jesus, as Paul put it.
Basically God asks us to hold loosely what we love and believe and trust only Him, accepting His own revelation of Himself through His word.
Colleen |
Yenc
Registered user
Username: Yenc
Post Number: 322
Registered: 6-2008
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 18, 2010 - 9:12 am: | |
One problem with false religion is that in false religion, a person must change his behavior to fit the religion. In other words, It's like this: A man has a piece of wood. He carves it into the shape of a little tree. He cuts some leaves from green paper, and he glues the paper leaves to the wooden tree. He shapes some apples from clay, he paints them red, and fastens them to the wooden branches. Then he thinks it is a real apple tree! It looks like an apple tree, but it is not!
SDAs, JWs, Mormons, and many other religions do this. They teach "good" living and they think they make real religion, real people approved by God!
What is a real apple tree? It has to come from the Living Tree! It starts with a seed. Inside the seed is life from the Living Tree. The seed can grow because the Living Tree gave it life. Now it can become a real apple tree.
We cannot just look at the outside to determine if a religion is true. We have to know where it came from! We have to compare it to the Truth of God. We may have to taste the fruit.
Goran, You are seeking for truth, God's truth. Look to the True Source, the Lord! His Word will show you what to look for and how to compare what you find in the world. Only then can you find truth!
Goran, I sense in you a sincere desire to know truth! The "pretty colors" of the fake religions cover fake doctrines to make them look real. We on this Forum also got tricked by false religions, but when we discovered their deception, we had to throw them into the trash can, even though some of them were pretty. We cannot survive on fake fruit, and we cannot live with fake religion, no matter how pretty it looks on the outside! We can only live if the fruit comes from the Living Source!
Pray and study your Bible to know how to recognize Truth! We can tell you what we have learned, but you must study God's Word to know Truth! Even some of us are wrong about some things, so do not simply accept what we say, either. Search God's Word. Compare verses with verses to get a better understanding.
God loves you, and He wants you to know Him, and to know His truth. He will not play games with you, but He will open your heart to see His truth!
I am praying for you, Goran!
Yen |
Gorancroatia
Registered user
Username: Gorancroatia
Post Number: 51
Registered: 6-2010
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 18, 2010 - 10:46 pm: | |
"calling upon a "different" Jesus" - the same argument SDA uses for others, RC and falen protestantism is in E.W. Early Writings sown like peoples before the tron, but Jesus went away and Adventist follow Him, but others remain before that place, and Satan come like False Jesus and they continues to worship Satan like Jesus.
That make sense to me before I realize that God is Savior, and He will not leave peoples to worship Satan in form of Jesus, if they call the Name Jesus and say " Jesus save me!" God will not leave them to Satan, just because they did not track Jesus leaving from one place in Heavenly Sanctuary to another. God is not testing peoples theological knowledge! He is savior of the lost, ignorant, and sinful.
There is no such thing like somebody to call the wrong Jesus. There is no exact knowledge of who is Jesus in Bible. It was tried in past, and there was a Quest for Historical Jesus, but the result is conclusion that there is possibility that man Jesus lived but all above that is a invention of gospel writers.
So salvation must be by faith alone. Saved Galatians can again fall in to slavery and be deceived, and suffer for that, but point in Galatians is in question: Do you received Spirit by doing the Law or by hearing the sermon of Jesus who die on the cross and rise again ?
If you read Pauls letters you will not find any precise descriptions of who Jesus is, Paul is preaching God on cross which is blasphemy for Judaism and craziness for Greek. Some information contains in Gospels but it is just a few stories about Jesus, only a little part of his life. The point is to believe that Jesus is Savior by the personal revelation.
There is no reason for Christians to wage interdenominational wars. We all are for One. There is no Adventists papers which stops some one to call Jesus to be his Savior!
Yes, there are some crazy Adventists and some who do not understand. I think that "keeping the all 10" do not meant to be understand like to be "perfect in doing the Law" but it was meant to be understand that 3 Angels warns Christianity that RC changed the Law of God, (they erased 2. comm, changed 4., and split 10. to fill the gap) and that is why SDA is a "keeper" of the true Law, not the perfect law keepers. SdAs must be saved and can be saved like everybody else : by faith in Jesus.
Some peoples are misunderstanding what is present truth and what is Everlasting Gospel. Preset truth is just a message from God to reach peoples minds. So, E.W. calls herself to be a messenger and that is Adventist core businesses: to be messengers, and if we accept that we can look on them in other perspective.
Why not one of the cult busters ever attack RC ? In RC peoples bow and kiss Popes hand, they praying before the statues of Mary and saints and kiss them and worship them. RC contradict Bible they even openly states that Church Tradition is in same rang if not above the Bible. They think that Tradition is directly influenced by the Spirit of God and in that sense above Word on biblical paper.
I think that cult busters are afraid of RC, because they are a power not just a church.
So, if you think that it is important to receive Jesus who went direct in Most Holy place and not later in 1884. to have faith in real Jesus, I must say that both of them are one Jesus, but the theology can be more biblical and less. The theology is not Jesus. Theology studies Word and come to conclude something, but the real truth is always greater. |
Yenc
Registered user
Username: Yenc
Post Number: 325
Registered: 6-2008
| | Posted on Thursday, August 19, 2010 - 2:08 am: | |
When the Apostle Paul and some Former SDAs use the term "another Jesus" they do not mean there was another man with the same name, or that they confuse 2 people with the same name. What they mean by saying "another Jesus" is that SDAs, RCs, and many other people give the wrong description of Jesus' work, His teachings, His nature, and His requirements for salvation.
When Jesus died on the cross, He said, "It is finished!" His work of atonement was done at that moment! But SDAs teach that Jesus did NOT finish the atonement on the cross! They teach doctrine that He went into the Most Holy Place in 1844 to begin the Investigative Judgment so atonement could be finished later! SDAs cannot prove this by Bible alone--they need EGW!
EGW says after Jesus went back to heaven, He did not sit at the right hand of the Father until 1844! But Mark 16:19 says, "So then, after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God."
RCs say when the priest prays at communion the wine and bread become the actual blood and body of Jesus. The Bible says communion bread and wine represent His blood and body, not that they are real blood and body! Again, wrong teaching about Jesus! RCs have many other false doctrines, and some websites show them. But we are not former RCs. We have responsibilities to teach TRUTH about SDA wrong teachings because we were SDA. Who can teach this if we avoid our responsibilities? We love our families and friends, and we want them to know TRUTH!!
SDAs teach false doctrine of EGW that Christians must all be perfect before Jesus can come back to earth. This is wrong! People do not control Almighty God! Jesus will come when He decides to come!
SDAs teach Old Testament Law (Old Covenant, based on keeping the whole law of the Jews) is still valid. Bible says now we have New Covenant based on grace, a gift of God, because Jesus died! (Pray first for understanding, and then carefully read Galatians every day for two or three weeks. You will be amazed, as I was when I did this. I did not understand either, before I studied Galatians this way.) New Covenant grace does not mean we live like the world--but that the Law is not our master--Jesus is!
EGW was a false prophet! She claimed to have visions, but many contradict the Bible! Many of her prophecies did not come true! So she was a false prophet!
Also, EGW copied writings of other writers (plagiarism) and claimed she did not--A BIG LIE! A few SDA Church leaders know this, but they try to hide the documents! A few told the truth, so now we know! They compared EGW writings with older books by other writers = same words! But EGW and SDA Church lied about it!
SDA Church has many more BIG problems like these. God hates lies! We cannot accept lies aS TRUTH, so we are now learning REAL TRUTH from Bible only. SDA Church continues to teach these lies, so we cannot stay in SDA Church! We love real teachings of Jesus in the Bible!
Goran, please pray to learn truth about Jesus, forgiveness, grace, prophecies. This was VERY difficult for all of us, but now we can have PEACE! We are praying for you, too.
Yen |
Gorancroatia
Registered user
Username: Gorancroatia
Post Number: 52
Registered: 6-2010
| | Posted on Thursday, August 19, 2010 - 3:08 am: | |
It is only a doctrine like you said.
W.Rea named the book White lie, which means the lie for the good cause, not big lie.
Galatians do not contradict Jesus himself, He said that He is not come to change the Law not even one word in Law but to fulfill. Bible is not in contradiction. |
Helovesme2
Registered user
Username: Helovesme2
Post Number: 2519
Registered: 8-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, August 19, 2010 - 4:35 am: | |
"White lie" means little lie. It goes with the saying that "There is no such thing as a white lie." |
Gorancroatia
Registered user
Username: Gorancroatia
Post Number: 54
Registered: 6-2010
| | Posted on Thursday, August 19, 2010 - 8:45 am: | |
Mary, I just write what Rea write in introduction, because English is not my first, I tried to understand that play of words....but Rea will named the book Big lie if he meant that.
Ok. To sums up Galatians, I read what Paul writes like this:
"If you not led by the Spirit than you are under the law."
Galatians were influenced by some gays to be circumcised because it is a mast do for strangers which are willing to participate in Passover fest days (Exodus 12:48). They want to become Israelis. Paul exhort them that there is no meaning for that, because "the seed" is come - Jesus. So, now they are looking for Heavenly Jerusalem. Paul says : you can be pagans, there is no need for you to become Israelis.
If you look the deeds of flash, there are a braking of the 10s. The deeds of the Spirit is not murder, adultery...etc..so Law is binding if you not invest in Spirit, than you are under the curse. Nobody abolished the law. There is only a way out from the curse of the law. |
Yenc
Registered user
Username: Yenc
Post Number: 326
Registered: 6-2008
| | Posted on Thursday, August 19, 2010 - 10:38 am: | |
The term "white lie" is an idiom. It is a lie that the liar hopes he may tell without getting caught because he hopes other people will not see it is lie. A "white lie" has some truth mixed in to fool the listener.
For example, Mr. X tells you, "I am a teacher." He knows you will think he has a good education, and that he has a job in a school, teaching in a classroom. But he has no higher education, and he only works part-time as a factory worker. Is he a teacher? He shows the other workers how to make brooms, so yes, he is a "teacher." That was a "little white lie" that will not change the history of the world, but it is still a lie because he knows you will assume he has a good education and a professional position although he does not.
Maybe Mr. Y tells you, "I am a prophet," because he wants you to think he gets messages from God and he can accurately tell about future events. But it is a "white lie" because it is partial truth and he knows you will not know the whole truth! Actually, he can only predict that Tuesday will be followed by Wednesday! Is that prophecy true? Yes! But is he a a true prophet of God? No! He told a "white lie" that is only partly true, only between you and him, but it is still a lie because it is not the whole truth!
Walter Rea used the term "White Lie" as a clever pun--a "play on words with a double meaning," because "White" also refers to EGW. A "white lie" is still a lie! And EGW lied about many things; some church leaders knew that she lied, but they thought it was okay if it was for a good cause! They hoped no one would discover it, and they tried to cover up the truth when someone discovered the plagiarism and other lies. And they continue to lie!
Is it okay to lie for a "good cause"? NO!!! Who is the "Father of Lies"? SATAN!!!
God never lies! He never approves of lying for any cause. Lies are always completely against the character of God.
We Former Adventists want to know God's truth and we want people still in the church to know also. We were deceived, and now we know that. Therefore we are focused on this work. |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 11588
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, August 19, 2010 - 8:42 pm: | |
Goran, many cult watchers ARE concerned about Catholicism. But there is a very important difference between Catholicism and Adventism and the other cults: Catholicism actually has its roots in the true apostolic gospel. They grew out of the New Testament teachings and still affirm the eternal, full deity of Jesus and the whole Nicene Creed.
They have gone so far astray, however, that one may well question whether or not they deserve to be called "Christian"—yet because their roots were originally planted in the apostolic gospel, there is something there that can be reformed. That is why the Reformation sprang out of the trunk of the tree that began as the original Church. Once the Reformation happened, the Catholic "branch" grew in a different direction from the Protestant "branch", but they still sprang from the same root. The Reformation was a move back toward the original root of the gospel.
Adventism, however, did not spring from the apostolic root and the New Testament gospel. It began with founders who did NOT believe in the Trinity or the eternal deity of Christ. It did not believe in the real nature of man having an immaterial spirit. It did not believe Jesus was still the living God while He was in the tomb. It believed in the visions of a false prophet.
In no way could the original Adventist organization be considered part of the apostolic church. It was an Arian cult, and there is nothing there in that Adventist "bush" to reform. It has changed its public statements of belief over the years so that its current branches and leaves look very much like Protestant branches and leaves--but if one traces backwards from the current public leaves and branches of Adventism and follows it to its foundation, one finds that Adventism is not growing from the root of the New Testament gospel. It is a false gospel that mimics true Christianity.
You cannot reform something that never had truth. That false, Arian root still nourishes the Adventist tree.
Moreover, the Catholic church did not change the "law". That is a myth that only the Adventists and some Catholics believe. In other words, the Christian world at large has no illusion that the Catholic church changed the law. Christians will tell you that the biblical Sabbath is Saturday. The Catholics did not change anything, and the Christian world understands the law to be exactly what the Bible says it is.
Christians, however, understand that the new covenant is new--that Jesus fulfilled the old one and instituted a new one. Jesus ushered in a new priesthood--not a levitical priesthood but one in the order of Melchizedek. Jesus was not from the priestly tribe but from the kingly tribe, Judah. And Hebrews 7:12 says where there is a change of the priesthood, there is a change of the law. Jesus ushered in the new covenant and the law of Christ, or the law of liberty (James 2), or the law of the Spirit (Romans 8). We live by the Holy Spirit when we are born again. The written law is no longer authoritative over us because we have been justified and freed from it.
It is hard to begin to see all the ways Adventist lied to us and led us to an unbiblical worldview. Ellen White was not a prophet of God, and those Three Angels are not "the gospel in verity" as Adventists explain it. They are saying exactly what they are saying: worship God the Creator and come out of Babylon. There is no biblical support for saying those angels in Revelation 14 are calling people to worship on Saturday or to leave "apostate Protestantism".
The real Jesus is revealed in His word: the Scriptures. Adventists do not believe the Bible is inerrant; they believe it is "infallible" but has errors mixed in. We will not begin to see the real Jesus until we are ready to accept by faith that He is revealed in His word and that His word is absolutely trustworthy without being interpreted by a modern prophet.
Jesus does reveal Himself when we call on Him—but He leads us firmly and unceasingly toward His Word. Knowing Jesus is not only a personal revelation—it is grounded solidly in the written words from God Himself retained in Scripture.
Finally, there is no "present truth" as Ellen teaches. There is only ONE TRUTH—and that is God as He has revealed and expressed Himself in Jesus. There is no "new instruction" or insight for modern times. The same Scriptures are God's final word to us that they were to the church over the past 2,000 years.
All we need is in Scripture, and the Holy Spirit brings life to our spirits when we surrender our control and our knowledge and agree with God that His promises are true, that we are hopeless without Him, and that He died for us and will give us the faith to believe in Him. We have to be willing to know what His word says; truth is not in our heads or in other books—although God does send His church teachers and preachers. But we have to let go of all we think and believe and allow Him to re-write our understandings and worldview.
Then we begin to KNOW the real Jesus. He reveals Himself, and He holds us responsible for letting go of the things that get in our way of trusting and following Him—including things like any modern prophet who claims to speak for God.
Colleen |
Gorancroatia
Registered user
Username: Gorancroatia
Post Number: 56
Registered: 6-2010
| | Posted on Thursday, August 19, 2010 - 11:08 pm: | |
Collen,
I think that your observation is general, not precise.
First, Adventists roots are in Methodists and Baptists. So you can trace root till the apostolic church, if that logic is valid.
Second, did you ever read some Jan Calvin book ?
Or Luther ?
They are very sharp to RC an openly states that Pope is Antichrist and that mass is Satanic.
So, Adventist did not invent that revolt against RC, they inherit it from Calvin and Luther. I recommend Institutes of Christian Religion from Calvin.
You cant be protestant and in same time think good about RC. It is great deceit in this days, because Calvin and Luther are enemies of RCs. So, there cant be that this two gays and RC agree on anything. That "root" logic is only yours and have no background. RC even consider that Calvin and Luther are satanic peoples. There is no mild version of relationship between RC and protestantism.
RC in Catechism do claim and that is no secret at all that the RC have power to change Gods Law. They abolished 2. commandment, to have worshiping of virgin statutes etc. That is common knowledge, no SDAs claims.
The basic thing is that everybody do give respect to RC and Pope, even if not agreed with them. That is evidence of spiritual power in Vatican and there is that power. Only dispute is about by what source that power stands. Is it God or is it World power. |
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