| Author | Message | ||
| Cloudwatcher Registered user Username: Cloudwatcher Post Number: 56 Registered: 5-2009 |
I've been thinking about this and wanted to get your input. In what subtle (or not so subtle ways) were you, as an Adventist, taught to question the authority of Scripture? In what ways did you, as an Adventist, accept a right-sounding but ultimately weak version of the belief in inerrancy? | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 11212 Registered: 12-2003  |
I was overtly taught that as Adventists, we did not believe in biblical inerrancy but believed in its infallibility. This was explained by saying "infallible" meant that the purposes and teachings of the book as a whole are true and would not lead one astray. "Inerrant" was explained to me as a false concept. "God didn't cause the Bible writers to do automatic writing, where their brains were disengaged and God wrote words by moving the writers' hands," my teachers said. I have come to realize that Adventists never use the word "inerrant" correctly. They mis-define it to create a straw-man argument against the concept that the words of the Bible are completely reliable. The whole thing revolves around a biblical vs. an unbiblical concept of inspiration. Adventists have a foundational belief that Ellen White was inspired exactly as Bible writers were inspired. This belief is a false belief, but when it is accepted as underlying truth, it skews every single belief built on top of it. Elen White was not inspired the same way Bible writers were inspired. She was a false prophet, writing untold numbers of statements that contradict the Bible as well as contradicting other statements of her own. She plagiarized from many other authors, both Adventist and Christian. She wrote things that have been proven to be patently false--such as her now-out-of-print A Solemn Appeal to Mothers in which she wrote of the evils and physical dangers of masturbation, and her denials of Christ's eternal deity (contradicted in other places), and her declarations that Jesus is Michael the Archangel, and her statement that God held His hand over William Miller's mistaken date in order to motivate people to get ready, to name a few. Ellen White did not receive her inspiration from God. God cannot lie, and God does not give false messages to some of His prophets. He is consistent, and He does not manipulate people by deceiving them so they will "get ready". Because Adventists believe EGW and Bible writers were inspired the same way, they have to believe the Bible has errors because they know EGW has errors. Moreover, the Bible contradicts EGW in many areas, and they have to have a way to explain those contradictions. Hence, they say there are errors in the texts, and they interpret and analyze those disagreements and create ways they can be understood to be compatible. If you eliminate EGW from the equation, the question of inerrancy looks different. God did not have to do "automatic writing" in order to preserve and protect His own word. Just as Jesus is a hypostatic union of God and man, completely unexplainable in human or scientific terms, so the Bible is a union of man's obedience and God's inspiration. We cannot explain exactly HOW it "works", but we can know, based on 2 Tim 3:16 and 2 Peter 3, etc., that God's word is completely reliable. Adventists say it was the writers, not the words, that were inspired--that God gave them "inspiration" but left it up to them to write what they "got" according to their own understandings of it. But Scripture tells us that all of it, down to the smallest jot and tittle, are inspired and reliable and useful for correction, instruction, and teaching. God inspired the words of Scripture, but in His own mysterious way, He allowed the writers to write His words in their own "voice" and languages and styles. We have more copies of ancient Bible manuscripts than we have of any other ancient literature, and we know that the scribes who copied the OT books threw away any manuscript pages that had even one mistake on any two pages. God protected His word, and we can be sure that, in the original manuscripts, it is without error. God did not leave His word up to mortal men to decipher. He revealed and inspired what He wanted written...and He did not move their hands while their minds were out of gear. So, Adventists are taught the Bible is "infallible" but not "inerrant". And they are wrong. This belief means that Adventists can ignore or "play with" the text to fit their beliefs. A friend of mine explained it this way: Adventists use the Bible as an "authoritative proof" of their own doctrines and beliefs instead of using the Bible as the judge of their doctrines and beliefs. In other words, Adventists belief their doctrines are "truth", and they assume the Bible supports them--and they have proof texts to prove it. The oppositie is true. If one believes the Bible contains the truth and uses it as the judge, the unmoving foundation of reality, and judges SDA doctrines by it, the result is the doctrines are found to be flawed. Colleen | ||
| Jrt Registered user Username: Jrt Post Number: 1054 Registered: 10-2008 |
I totally agree with Colleen. One other thought. I was taught that the Bible was "thought" inspired, but not "word" inspired. This allows a person to attach unBiblical meanings (thoughts) to texts rather than take the scriptures "word for word". Adventists can then "pick" and "choose" what texts they use and discount others. Adventists proof text without having to 'con'text. For example: Adventists LOVE to use a text from Ecclesiastes to say when you die you cease to exist (have no thoughts, love, etc.). {Ecc. 9:5} .... As I talk with theologians they say ... You can NEVER use the book of Eccl. to build a doctrine. It is a book of poetry. It is like saying I'm going to learn to farm, take principles of farming, from the book, Song of Solomon, because the author at one point says her eyes look like pools of water and corn stalks waving in the wind. It is absurd. Any Biblical scholar would go, huh? Yet, this is how Adventists use a proof text - without using it's true Biblical context. "Thought" inspiration does exactly what Colleen describes above. If a word or two is out of place and gives the sentence a "different" meaning than what you'd like .... then give it the "thought" you believe. I have a book I bought from Amazon called, "Encyclopedia of Bible difficulties" in which well known Biblical scholars deal with difficult texts and seeming discrepancies in scripture. When I was introduced to this book I was amazed that the Adventist argument of "discrepancies" in scripture - those texts used to show "thought" inspiration - rather than word for word accuracy ... actually had logical, Biblical, real answers. I was "wow"ed into realizing that every single word of scripture is God-breathed. Keri | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 6205 Registered: 9-2006  |
Quote: We cannot explain exactly HOW it "works", but we can know, based on 2 Tim 3:16 and 2 Peter 3, etc., that God's word is completely reliable. I believe we can explain exactly HOW it works. It works in practicality, it works because God CONFIRMS his word in us, and or, through us. If you will notice he finishes up in Timothy II 3:17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work. If God did not confirm his word, we wouldn't be very equipped. In Mark 16:19 So then, after the Lord had spoken to them, He was received up into heaven, and sat down at the right hand of God. Mark 16:20 And they went out and preached everywhere, the Lord working with them and confirming the word through the accompanying signs. Amen. If the word is misused, then we won't have the confirmation. Now cessation-ist will argue,"I haven't seen any dead raised." Well...what about an alcoholic suddenly delivered in a moment of time,,,what about a family put back together,,,what about a man, woman, or child repenting in tears, and forever, from that moment, changed? In fact, what about an Adventist, who suddenly begins to see the Bible in a different light? He says, "Wow, I didn't see that before!" As Bill Engvol says, "Here yer sign!" Adventists, as well as others... they ain't by themselves... want the word to line up with them, instead of lining up with it, and it ain't gonna happen. Adventist want us to look at them and their church, and to confirm them..Well I don't see any signs unless one thinks 'dead' is a sign. As the old Advertisement that caught on so well says, "Where's the beef?" If you ain't got no beef, then don't try to sell me a hamburger! That's the trouble with Adventism, and even in evangelical circles, they keep trying to convince me they got a hamburger for me without a spec of beef. Ain't no wonder Adventists are vegetarians, they ain't got no beef! River | ||
| Pnoga Registered user Username: Pnoga Post Number: 357 Registered: 1-2007  |
Colleen said "A friend of mine explained it this way: Adventists use the Bible as an "authoritative proof" of their own doctrines and beliefs instead of using the Bible as the judge of their doctrines and beliefs. In other words, Adventists belief their doctrines are "truth", and they assume the Bible supports them--and they have proof texts to prove it. The oppositie is true. If one believes the Bible contains the truth and uses it as the judge, the unmoving foundation of reality, and judges SDA doctrines by it, the result is the doctrines are found to be flawed." Amen, that is exactly how God led me out of the Seventh Day Adventist Church. I told myself if the SDA doctrine was truth than if I Read and Study the bible alone and with an open mind and heart than, the Bible would prove it so. Boy what a shock I was in for, but what freedom from my sin it was. Paul | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 6206 Registered: 9-2006 |
Adventism is like a magic act, and it upsets them if you look too close. That quarter is in your palm, or that card is in your pocket. They perform their magic act with slight of hand, and woo the crowds before them as their preachers ply their trade. Now you see it, now you don't. They wave their hand to draw your attention, while the other hand is busy hiding the real thing. Now see there Paul, you done went and messed up their act. You've been a bad Adventist! An d they ain't going to want you to come to their show! | ||
| Freeatlast Registered user Username: Freeatlast Post Number: 648 Registered: 5-2002 |
In Adventist folk language, the phrase "Bible-based teaching" means that the Scriptures are misued in an attempt to verify Adventist distinctives. | ||
| Joyfulheart Registered user Username: Joyfulheart Post Number: 658 Registered: 10-2006 |
"Adventism is like a magic act, and it upsets them if you look too close." River, you sure got that one right. That one line summarizes my whole experience in the SDA church. Patty | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 6212 Registered: 9-2006 |
One time we touched down on the tarmac at Ft. Hood, the troops were all dirty and tired, and just wanted to get home, take a shower, get a hot meal and rest, but the general had to have his dog and pony show with the bugles and the drums, flags waving. Me, I wanted to see my young wife, not a dog and pony show. Thats all I ever seen any Adventist do with the Bible studies is put on a dog and pony show. I mean its so apparent even a blind man could see it, and I'm just getting to where I could care less about dog and pony shows. How about you Patty? Would you like to go back there and put on a dog and pony show?  | ||
| Joyfulheart Registered user Username: Joyfulheart Post Number: 661 Registered: 10-2006 |
Well, River, I confess to liking dogs and ponies and dog and pony shows ... but not when it comes to the Gospel. I'll tell you what I WILL do. I will continue to speak out boldly as the Holy Spirit guides. A few (actually only two) Adventists from my former church have contacted me - and I've spoken up (lovingly, but boldly) against some things they have said. Those dog and pony shows they have - called Prophecy seminars are so slick. I fell right into it. People who know me wonder why since I was from a great church. I now believe with all my heart that I was brought in to the church in order to be brought out of the church to minister to others in similar situations. Colleen says often that God does not waste our pain and uses everything as it is surrendered to Him. If God calls me to go back and put on a dog and pony show for Him - that will lead people into truth, I'll do it. I'm a kindergarten teacher. I do dog and pony shows every day! (At least MY kids seem to enjoy them.) Patty | ||
| Cloudwatcher Registered user Username: Cloudwatcher Post Number: 57 Registered: 5-2009 |
I don't recall where it came from, specifically, but I remember believing the notion that the Bible was inaccessible...that it was for scholars and pastors to understand and explain to me. I never had the confidence or expectation, until about 6-7 years ago, that I could read and understand the Bible myself (with only the Holy Spirit to guide me). What does this have to do with the authority of Scripture? Because Adventists preach what the Bible does not say, and infer false things about what it does say, ... it teaches people to doubt that it means what it says when they read it. For example, if you've grown up believing something, and then you read the Bible for yourself and it says something contradictory, then you: 1. lose confidence that you can understand the Bible simply by reading it yourself and letting the Holy Spirit teach you. 2. you begin believing that there are discrepancies in the Bible, translation misunderstandings, and issues with certain versions, etc. 3. you begin saying things like, "well, every denomination has its own interpretation..." (truth is relative) All because we weren't taught truth about the Bible to begin with...and we're confused that it doesn't say what we were taught that it says. From the beginning we didn't learn to trust God's Word as authoritative. If the Bible is not 100% truth, then we might as well discard the whole thing altogether. It's all or nothing. | ||
| Nowisee Registered user Username: Nowisee Post Number: 403 Registered: 5-2009 |
What good comments, Cloudwatcher! Really good comments from everyone. Having people describe, in their own unique ways, the mysteries of why we used to believe things in certain ways is so helpful to me. Sometimes it takes several times for me to get it! River, re the magic act comments: You just described Doug B to a T! (Anybody doubting this must go to youtube and watch his two-part teaching on Michael the Archangel--it's so slick, but has fibs throughout it!) | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 6217 Registered: 9-2006 |
I think I'll pass on watching Doug Spastical, been there and done that and I believe you. An interesting analogy for you, that I have been thinking about this morning. A fellow left American shores in his boat, heading for Hawaii. He took with him, for navigation, a street GPS. After some days of being lost, he finally got word to the Coast Guard. He told the Coast Guard his GPS just kept telling him to turn left, so he ended up going around in circles. Kind of like it is when a person is raised Adventist, he doesn't know that he has the wrong device for navigation. his/her answer when questioned? "I didn't know." Now this is a sad old analogy, but I think very true, and to get anywhere, we have to look at truth. I could say to the fellow on the boat, "Didn't you know better?" But the facts are that he didn't and he was just as lost out there. Adventists are just as lost as the boatman was, it's amateurish, and there's no use saying, "Didn't you know any better." However, once the boatman has been told that you can't use a street GPS to navigate over open water, if he is lost, there is no way to say any longer, "I just didn't know." Ignoring the truth is like going back out with the street GPS. My son plans on navigating from Astoria Oregon, too Ventura Ca. on his 38 ft. Trojan boat. I notice his compass binical was loose, I told him he needs to get that fixed and have it re-aligned by a certified compass person. He said, "I got GPS", but I explained to him that things happen at sea, like losing power, or satellite malfunction and I urged him to get the compass fixed. The Bible is our compass, and depending on a church doctrine to teach a person is like not having a compass on board. Thing soon go wrong. We are so much like ships at sea. Many people have see proclamation Magazine,and spoken to by well meaning former relatives, they have been told, if they don't receive the witness, and are lost. Can they say they haven't been notified that their navigation device is no good? I don't see how. River | ||
| Dennis Registered user Username: Dennis Post Number: 1974 Registered: 4-2000  |
Cloudwatcher, Oftentimes when a Seventh-day Adventist finds a biblical answer and shares it with fellow members, they candidly remind him/her that "You mean you know more than the entire church?" Still other Adventists will add: "He is just full of pride. He thinks he knows more than anybody else. Our Church has dealt with his concerns before he was even born." In response to the recent question asked on Yahoo Answers: "Are Seventh-day Adventists Christians?" I gave the following answer, and I received the "Best Answer" designation chosen by the asker:
Dennis Fischer Today's Creation Wisdom: Everyone's tongue print is unique. | ||
| Skeeter Registered user Username: Skeeter Post Number: 728 Registered: 12-2007 |
VERY good Dennis ! Francie | ||
| Psalm107v2 Registered user Username: Psalm107v2 Post Number: 659 Registered: 10-2008  |
I would say Cloudwatcher that it was both subtle and not subtle. The phrase "Sister White says..." to me meant that we needed her say. Scripture at times could be a muddy and murky thing and as her grandson said we didn't have to worry about ancient texts and meanings we had a contemporary. What I think impacted me most was that the adult quarterlies had an EGW quote at the very end of virtually every lesson. In life & death her words were integral to "bible study" | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 8173 Registered: 3-2004  |
Cloudwatcher, As Ps 102v7 said above, there were quotes from her books at the end of every lesson. Whenever there was a question and a person said this is what is said in the Bible, another person would say this is what egw says. The discussion would stop. It was subtle and not knowing any different I just accepted it. Thank our awesome God I am not there any more. Diana L | ||
| Heretic Registered user Username: Heretic Post Number: 287 Registered: 2-2005 |
I think Colleen is right about Adventism creating a strawman argument regarding this question of inspiration. My experience has been that the two views set up against each other are a) thought inspiration (the SDA view) vs. b) mechanical dictation, neither of which are accurate views of inspiration. What they ignore or simply don't understand is that most Christians believe "plenary verbal inpiration" to be true, and is nothing like the rote mechanical dictation they rail against and ascribe to other Christians. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 11236 Registered: 12-2003 |
Amen, Hec! Well said. Colleen | ||
| Dennis Registered user Username: Dennis Post Number: 1977 Registered: 4-2000 |
Interestingly, Seventh-day Adventists insist that they are modern Laodiceans. Nearby Hierapolis was famous for its hot springs, and Colosse for its cold, refreshing mountain stream. But Laodicea had dirty, tepid water that flowed for miles through an underground aqueduct. Visitors, unaccustomed to it, immediately spat it out. The church at Laodicea was neither cold, openly rejecting Christ, its members were lukewarm, hypocrites professing to know Christ, but not truly belonging to Him. Just like the dirty, tepid water of Laodicea, these self-deceived hypocrites sickened Christ. Given these facts, I find it somewhat entertaining that Seventh-day Adventists identify themselves as modern Laodiceans. Dennis Fischer | ||
| Hec Registered user Username: Hec Post Number: 1031 Registered: 3-2009 |
Colleen, what did I say? Hec | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 11240 Registered: 12-2003 |
Ha! I'm so sorry--I meant Heretic! Sorry, Heretic! Colleen | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 8174 Registered: 3-2004 |
Dennis, I remember, when in sda school, being told the sda church was modern Laodecia. I never equated it with lukewarm water, which was spat out of the mouth. THANKS!!!! Diana L | ||
| Dennis Registered user Username: Dennis Post Number: 1979 Registered: 4-2000 |
Diana, Yes, Seventh-day Adventists believe that they have the cure or solution for Laodicean lethargy or lukewarmness with their perfectionist message. However, the first perfect Adventist hasn't been identified yet (smile). Remember, Adventists further insist that Christ cannot return until "the character of Christ is perfectly reproduced in His people." (COL, page 69) With Adventist glasses, it certainly looks like the "Great Disappointment" will continue for the foreseeable future. Dennis Fischer (Message edited by Dennis on May 18, 2010) | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 8176 Registered: 3-2004 |
I know when I was sda I was not perfect. I remember when my brother Joe was baptized and later that day he was naughty. I was very disappointed in him, because he was not instantly perfect. Of course I was not perfect either, but I did not think of that. What a crazy,mixed up mess sda is!!!!! Diana L | ||
| Freeatlast Registered user Username: Freeatlast Post Number: 651 Registered: 5-2002 |
Dennis, nice play on words ;>) | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 11242 Registered: 12-2003 |
Colleen |
