| Author | Message | ||
| Agapetos Registered user Username: Agapetos Post Number: 1986 Registered: 10-2002  |
Hi all, Here's a few thoughts about the "mark of the beast" that I've felt in His heart over the last ten years or so. I just posted this on the recent "rapture" thread but realized it'd probably be good to have as its own thread here. Bless you in Jesus! Ramone ***** A Few Certainties about the "Mark of the Beast" The only thing I know for certain about the "mark of the beast" is that it begins in the heart and may possibly manifest in the form of receiving an external 'mark'. Or it may not manifest outwardly. The thing that is most important is the inward part, the 'mark' inside your heart, and I believe this is critical to understand. Here's why. Consider what happens if the mark is like an external mark, stamp or microchip or whatever. If people need only have that external stamp (etc.), then what happens if you have a family member who doesn't want to get it? Or would a parent make the choice for their child to get "the mark"? What happens if there's a prisoner in jail whose rights have been taken away because of their jail sentence? Wouldn't the prison have the authority to put a mark or chip in whichever prisoner they wanted to? (Especially if it served as a sort of tracking-device!) The point of this line of thought is to illustrate that the "mark" is essentially something that you cannot force anyone to receive. The way Revelation puts it is that if you don't receive the "mark", then the beast wants you dead and will make sure you get killed. In other words, the beast wants to make you so afraid that you choose to get the mark to save your own skin. (By the way, notice the direct parallel to Rev.12:11 -- "They overcame the dragon by the blood of the Lamb, the word of their testimony, and because they did not love their own lives to the death.) In other words, again, the beast can't "mark" you as his if you are unwilling to receive his mark. Yet it is a very easy thing for any government, police or army, neighborhood gang or 'loving' family to drug you or pin you down long enough to put a stamp or microchip in you. That's no difficulty. But in God's view that would not be "receiving the mark". Otherwise the beast's police could just round up Christians and force the 'mark' on them, and Christians would be lost and suffer in the lake of fire & sulpher. But that is not how it works. The mark of the beast is something that has eternal consequences because it is internal at the core. Perhaps it will eventually manifest in an outward way, perhaps not. The Christian really does not need to worry about how or if it manifests externally or not. That is inconsequential! The important thing is to have your heart in God's hands, and... Seeing Through the Eyes of the Cross The other important thing is to receive His heart for the people around you, especially including your enemies (whom He also died for). In times of persecution there is always a lot of "blame" going around. The persecuting authorities usually find some way to blame some kind of suffering or hardship on a group of people, usually a minority. What enables persecution (and things like xenophobia) is seeing the cause of suffering as being people, specifically a certain group of people. The solution then becomes disciplining and/or eliminating these "bad apples", with the illusion being that their removal will make things right and peachy again. It's completely false and unbiblical because the Bible says in Ephesians 6:12 that our fight is not against flesh and blood, but against the powers, principalities & authorities of the spiritual realms. Our enemies are ultimately spirits, not people. Our physical enemies are simply people deceived (to one degree or another) by spirits. Christ died for all people. The enemy is just trying to mess with us to get us all killing each other or blaming each other (and wishing that the other people were gone, thinking everything would be okay if only those people were not in the picture, etc.). But if we know that this is the enemy's game, and if we look through the cross of Christ at our fellow people --even terrorists and the like-- then we stay spiritually awake. To forget to look through the eyes of the Cross is to fall asleep at the wheel spiritually. This is why in Matthew 24, Jesus said that "the love of most will grow cold." The word for love there is "agape" -- the love with which Christ loved us by laying down His life for us while we were even still His enemies: "Agape one another as I have agape'd you." Jesus said that the agape love of most would grow cold and many would leave the faith. Why? Because of the increasing wickedness in the world. First He said that there would be pains like labor in the world -- disasters, earthquakes, wars and rumors of wars. Wickedness (and obviously violence) would increase in the world. And as a result of that increasing wickedness in the world, people who had known His agape love would let go of it and thus leave the faith. People who had once looked through the eyes of the cross at fellow man would be offended by the increasing violence; they would begin to see each other as the cause of the problem. They would forget that Christ died for all people, and would forget that their enemies are not flesh and blood. Their love would "grow cold" because in order to try and protect their own people or make justice in the world, they would try to attack or eliminate "flesh and blood" (other people) whom they thought were the cause of the problem. Staying Spiritually Awake By forgetting God's agape love, forgetting that He died even for our enemies, forgetting that our true enemies are spirits instead of people, and that our real war is against spirits -- by forgetting these things we subtly begin to forget what the Cross was all about. Because we were His enemies! By forgetting these things, we fall asleep at the spiritual wheel, so to speak, and we begin to veer off the Road -- out of the Way of Christ, out of walking as He did in His love, and thus out of the faith itself, no matter what is in our professed "statement of beliefs". That is how "persecution" starts, and that is how the beast will get his persecution rolling. (It is how every prior 'beast' began its persecution, too!) But what is important here in avoiding that beast is remembering that it is all about the heart -- having your heart in Christ and in His love for our enemies. The 'mark' is one that has eternal consequences, and therefore it is one that happens in your heart. Just as it is only with the heart that one believes and is saved, so it is only with the heart that one may disbelieve and be lost. By staying spiritually awake (see Romans 13:8-14), we remember that Christ has loved us and so we must love one another. We, His enemies, could do nothing to save ourselves. It was all His grace, free and undeserved. In the same way He has called us to walk in His love to those who do not deserve it from us, either -- our enemies. It is no good for us to proclaim that we thankfully receive His grace if we fail to give the same grace to others who are as equally undeserving as we are. Remembering these things is staying awake. Seeing spiritual reality through His eyes -- through the cross and through the Spirit of Christ -- we remain spiritually awake. And so when anyone comes telling us our enemies are flesh and blood, we know that a beast is speaking lies to us through them. When someone tells us we have to worship some thing or in some way or at some time --anything like that!-- in order to live or be saved, then we know it is not God because God has called us to love Him freely and willingly, in Spirit and in truth. God has not made our salvation dependent upon external forms, times or whatever. When someone says that such and such person or group is making God unhappy & bringing suffering because they don't worship the way we do and therefore need to be forcibly stopped or made to submit, then we know it is a beast speaking lies to us through them. Double Confidence! By staying in tune with God's heart (as revealed in the gospel for us and for our enemies), we stay spiritually awake and discern the times we're in, and what's going on around us and in the world. The Spirit shows us what's going on in the spiritual realms and how the enemy is trying to sway peoples' hearts with the goal of making them hate & attack each other instead of realizing that he (the enemy) is behind things. If we stay in tune with the Spirit then we don't need to worry about what the "mark" might or might not "look like". The Spirit reveals all things and intercedes for us in accordance with God's will. We are safe in Him -- safe in the Cross and safe in His Counselor for us! And just as His Spirit has taught us of His grace, so walk in that grace to all our 'neighbors', even to our enemies! Resting in His grace and in His agape love we have no fear but can have confidence in the days of trial, tribulation and in the day of judgment! Why? Because we know we are unworthy and have received His free love, and because we have asked Him to work through us to give that same undeserved free love to other people who are just as unworthy as we are. Our confidence is to be in Christ and in His love. Not in our works nor even in our deeds of love. Yet the Bible does say (in 1st John) that His love working through us is indeed a sign to us that we indeed belong to Him, and so we may have confidence in Him because we see His love at work in us. Because we see His love in us, we may know that we belong to Him and He lives inside of us. Because He loved us while we were still His enemies, we may know that He is living inside of us when we call upon Him to give us and when we receive His love for our enemies and our neighbors. Believing in His love for us and walking in it -- is there any other real 'beast' protection? I know not one! Hallelu Yah! | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 11127 Registered: 12-2003  |
For sure, the mark of the beast is related to whether or not we are born of the Spirit and know Jesus. It cannot be merely external, as you say, Ramone. If the seal of God is the Holy Spirit, the mark of the beast is related to spiritual death. While it may well have a physical manifestation, it is something that results from not being loyal to the Lord Jesus. Colleen | ||
| Agapetos Registered user Username: Agapetos Post Number: 1988 Registered: 10-2002 |
Understanding that puts a lot of the paranoia in perspective, doesn't it? You don't have to worry about microchips or whatever! What the government(s) can or cannot do is irrelevant because in Christ it is about the state of your heart. You don't have to worry about missing out on Christ because of being ignorant about some new technology or secret government plot. The interesting thing is that being worried about those things reflects a part of us that still doesn't know that we are securely saved by Christ's grace and by faith in Him. It reflects a part of us that still believes that some "work" (even an accidental work or one that we unknowingly did) would disqualify us even if we had given our heart to Him and rested in His grace. How I wish, though, that it was only Adventists who were worried about the mark of the beast and paid attention to trying to figure it out ahead of time! Unfortunately it is not just Adventists.  | ||
| Indy4now Registered user Username: Indy4now Post Number: 809 Registered: 2-2008  |
Great post Ramone! I hadn't thought about the mark of the beast in awhile. It makes complete sense that the "mark" begins in our heart. I would love to add this post to my notes on FB... would that be OK with you? vivian | ||
| Agapetos Registered user Username: Agapetos Post Number: 1991 Registered: 10-2002 |
sure!! thanks! isn't "eschatology" so simple and light in Jesus Christ? no heaviness, no fear! and what do you know, it IS all about the gospel!! | ||
| Cy Registered user Username: Cy Post Number: 68 Registered: 1-2005  |
Related to this, I saw a poster outside of the local SDA church for an apparently satellite-based Revelation seminar starting this week. I don't know if its been mentioned elsewhere on the forum, but I plan to pray that people will not be mislead into bondage by this series. | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 8104 Registered: 3-2004  |
I just read on the Lynwood Academy website today there will be an evangelistic series in Garden Grove, CA from April 10 to May 8, if I am remembering right. It is at the SDA church there. I pray for all people wanting to attend that they will not be fooled or mislead. Diana L | ||
| Indy4now Registered user Username: Indy4now Post Number: 811 Registered: 2-2008 |
... there are a couple of problems I can think of when you believe that the mark of the beast is an external mark. 1. Some people will wait until they hear about some microchip being permanently inserted into a person before they will seek God. 2. I can see how a person could have a false sense of security. For example, they might think that because they don't have the microchip they are definitely saved... even without believing in Christ's finished work. 3. Then if someone does have the microchip inserted, they might think they are doomed with no chance of salvation because they are marked. This belief about the mark of the beast being external basically says that your salvation is dependant on whether or not you get "the mark" instead of your foundation being in Christ through His death. ... it is a matter of the heart! There is no fear in Christ. vivian | ||
| Surfy Registered user Username: Surfy Post Number: 652 Registered: 11-2007 |
I am with Ramone. The mark of the beast may be something that everyone is forced to get or already has. If we know for sure what the mark is, we would refuse and fight it I am sure. The texts mentions whosoever recieves the mark...and worships the beast and his image. It's a two parter. The mark AND the worship. Surfy | ||
| Cindy Registered user Username: Cindy Post Number: 827 Registered: 7-2000 |
Great post, Ramone! Yes... to see everything thru the eyes of the Cross is to really see Jesus as the beginning and the end of everything! Jesus is our Life. grace, cindy | ||
| Raven Registered user Username: Raven Post Number: 1119 Registered: 7-2004  |
Besides the fact that being sealed with the Holy Spirit should give us peace that we can't and won't have the mark of the beast, I think the strongest reasons the mark of the beast can't be external are: --It would be too easy for a true believer to accidentally get it --God has always been concerned more with internal, spiritual things, not external, physical things. | ||
| Dennis Registered user Username: Dennis Post Number: 1952 Registered: 4-2000  |
Raven, What was the visible "mark" placed upon Cain for his safety? Surely, Cain (the first murderer) had no indwelling Spirit, sanctified heart, etc. Dennis Fischer | ||
| Raven Registered user Username: Raven Post Number: 1120 Registered: 7-2004 |
I agree Cain did not have an indwelling Spirit or sanctified heart. The Bible doesn't tell us what the mark (or my Bible says sign) placed on Cain was. It only says God appointed the mark or sign, and doesn't even say that it was visible. Here's a link to one answer on the topic, but I haven't researched it very thoroughly: http://www.answerbag.com/q_view/99795
Regardless, is there any reason to think it is similar to the mark of the beast? | ||
| Agapetos Registered user Username: Agapetos Post Number: 1995 Registered: 10-2002 |
Popping back in just for a minute (we're moving to a new apartment this month and I have to get stuff packed & ready)... The main point of the writing I shared here is to discern the character and fruit of the mark of the beast rather than the physics of it. In other words, by understanding the heart or spirit of it, we have no fear (and I daresay not even a concern) about the shape of its physics or external manifestation. If we discern by the Spirit and heart of things, we follow Jesus' call at the beginning of Revelation: "Let him who has ears hear what the Spirit says to the churches." Concern about the external shape/appearance of the mark leads us to look to the external and make sure we recognize it ahead of time so that we will not be lost. This fear subtly bypasses and subverts the gospel by offering us some vague appearance of safety in perhaps recognizing "the mark" when it comes, or at least the appearance of safety by being "on the lookout" for it. Up front the call in Revelation is to discern by the Spirit, so we must trust the Spirit that: 1) He will lead us into all truth 2) He has sealed us for the day of redemption 3) He is our guarantee on the last day 4) He testifies about Christ and witnesses to our salvation being in Him In other words, the Spirit testifies to the gospel (1 Cor.2:12) and whatever He has revealed in the book of Revelation we know points to our salvation in the gospel of God's grace given to us in Jesus Christ (Rev.19:10). What is revealed about the mark of the beast in Revelation is in apocalyptic symbolism and is debatable. I believe one of the reasons we (Christians) often debate it so much is because we don't look at it through the gospel. We look at it literally or try to figure out what it means as if approaching it like a puzzle or approaching it out of a subtle fear of the consequences of not figuring it out. But the gospel declares that we are safe in Christ and urges us to walk in His love. The love of Christ and His entire ministry teaches us to look to the heart of things and discern by the spirit of things. When we look through the gospel at the mark of the beast, we discover that it, too, is witnessing to what is already revealed: that we have no way but Christ's grace, and that anything drawing us away from loving one another as He loved us is asking for a different kind of "stamp", so to speak. Blessings to all in Jesus! Ramone | ||
| Raven Registered user Username: Raven Post Number: 1121 Registered: 7-2004 |
Ramone - I agree with you. | ||
| Raven Registered user Username: Raven Post Number: 1122 Registered: 7-2004 |
Dennis, in re-reading your post responding to me, I think you were probably writing that in answer to what I said here: "God has always been concerned more with internal, spiritual things, not external, physical things." I meant that in the sense of things that eternally matter. Clearly God has shown he is concerned with physical things during the course of human history for physical welfare, or many other reasons. But when it comes to where we end up eternally, an external physical thing (or what we do with an external physical thing) will not be a factor. No created thing will separate a believer from God, as I know you believe. The Holy Spirit is our security and believers have nothing to fear in end times, including we don't need to fear we must figure out the puzzle of Revelation to stay safely in God's hands. | ||
| Dennis Registered user Username: Dennis Post Number: 1955 Registered: 4-2000 |
Raven, Thank you for your comments. Yes, God even uses audible marks or signs (i.e., the confusion of languages at Babel, Pentecost, etc.). Moreover, God considers physical, human bodies important since they were a significant factor in sinning for the ungodly. This is why hell contains not merely the souls of the ungodly but their bodies as well. Thus, their bodies will also suffer the wrath of God according to the magnitude their evil deeds. Dennis Fischer (Message edited by Dennis on April 19, 2010) | ||
| Agapetos Registered user Username: Agapetos Post Number: 1996 Registered: 10-2002 |
Don't know where this is going, but what Raven and I pointed out is that as Christ said, out of the overflow of the heart the mouth proceeds. In the same way that it is with our hearts that we believe and are saved, the reverse is true that being lost is something that begins in the heart and eventually manifests outwardly sooner or later. The physical body is important, but salvation and damnation proceed from the inward out. While both the inner and outer man are important, clearly Christ's emphasis is undeniably on the inner. It is the inner that determins the fate of the outer, not the other way around nor in some sort of equal balance either. This again is the primary point of the writing I shared above. It would be a tragedy to read the "mark of the beast" apart from this central principle of Christ's teaching about the heart. | ||
| Agapetos Registered user Username: Agapetos Post Number: 1998 Registered: 10-2002 |
On a member's thread, someone recently wrote something which hit on this issue: Hey brother! Thought I'd comment on this since I wrote about it here recently (and since I don't have enough time to devote to catching up and commenting on another thread I really want to, 'cause I'm busy packing for a move to a new apartment). The main point of what I wrote here was that the mark of the beast begins spiritually and is at its core, spiritual. It might or might not manifest as a visible, outward "mark". The point though is that the exact manifestation it takes is a non-issue compared to discerning the spiritual root of it. Your point about "buy and sell" is good, however, it isn't exactly necessary that the "mark" be a physical mark on the right hand or forehead. If we read it literally, of course then it has to be a literal mark on the right hand or forehead. However Revelation is full of symbols and even the "beast mark" passage itself reflects this (14:18). There is an established precedent in the Old Testament, as well, using body locations such as right hand or forehead to symbolize a person's spiritual disposition. For example, Jeremiah 3:3 speaks of having "a harlot's forehead" (now doesn't THAT sound similar to Revelation!). But more interesting is Ezekiel 9 when God had one of His angels put a mark on the foreheads of the people in Jerusalem who grieved over its idolatry, and afterward God had His angels destroy everyone in the city without the mark. What this shows is that the location of the "mark" and the "mark" itself may be symbols of a spiritual status in God's sight. The "buy and sell" that you pointed out tells Christians that there will be an eventual loyalty test (or more likely, there will be many loyalty tests!). The idea of a test of loyalty to the antichrist is also very well established in scripture and in history... the three Hebrews refusing to bow to Nebuchadnezzar's golden image, Jews being forced to line up and eat pork by the Greek "beast" (via Antiochus IV's soldiers), Catholic converts being forced to step on paintings of Christ or the Madonna by the Tokugawa rulers in feudal Japan, etc. However as these examples illustrate, a physical "mark" is rarely utilized and is not necessary by any means. But as shown earlier, spiritually there is a "mark" in such situations. The external shape the loyalty test takes can vary and is not the critical thing to understand (particularly because loyalty tests are able to vary and change their shape, and thus focusing on a particular test's shape distracts us from the spiritual core; but if we stay in the Spirit and discern the core, we need not worry about figuring out what shape the loyalty test will take because the Spirit will have already shown us the core issues ahead of time). As Revelation 13, 14, and 19 show, the issue is a spiritual one. Those who receive the mark are said to be "deluded" or "deceived" by the false prophet & beast, and receiving the mark goes together with worshiping the beast. Deception, delusion and worship are issues of the heart. People are lost because their hearts are not justified before God, not because of something on or in their skin. Salvation (or lack of it) is by faith, not by skin (flesh). The "mark" is something which merely reflects the state of someone's heart before God. It would be a simple thing to sedate a friend or relative to do them a favor by getting them "microchipped". It would be a simple thing for the police to just legally enforce chipping, particularly in countries where people's "rights" are not guaranteed in any fashion. But Revelation says that whoever receives "the mark" is tormented in the lake of fire (14:11), i.e., eternally damned. So if we read it as a literal mark and worry about any new microchip technology we might have today as possibly "being the mark" in the future, then we're basically saying that the terms of the gospel at some point are going to change because it will be "salvation by flesh" (or, "loss of salvation by skin"). But the fact is that your salvation cannot be taken away from you in Christ when your heart is His. The beast is after a loyalty test, not your skin. If there is no loyalty test involved in police or doctors putting a microchip in you, then it is simply not the mark of the beast, nor will it become so unless a loyalty test is involved in which your allegiance and worship are involved. The beast wants and needs your conset, because he can't have you without it. To put it in the terms of "The Princess Bride", if you don't say "I do" then you aren't married, no matter what some authority proclaims over you. If you don't say "I do" to the beast, then it doesn't matter what kind of physical 'mark' or whatever he puts on you. The reverse is more obviously true: If we don't say "I do" to Christ in our hearts, then baptism or circumcision or whatever have you don't matter one lick. And then further, if we say "I do" in our hearts but walk in Christ's love, then our "I do" isn't worth a lick to Him, either. And that really reveals the whole meat of the loyalty test issue and things in the last days. Bless you in Jesus! Ramone (Message edited by agapetos on April 23, 2010) |
