| Author | Message | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 6122 Registered: 9-2006  |
He knows it upsets me when he does this. If you will notice he uses the trick of saying he personally knows someone who Blah, Blah, when in reality he is aiming this whole thing at me. If he claims to 'know' someone who...he thinks he can get away with insulting me indirectly. Its not this that gets me upset. What gets me upset is his openly, poking fun of, ridicule and disdain of the manifestations of Holy Spirit. Holy Spirit is a person, not an it, he is the wisdom of the age made manifest to us and through us. Personally, I don't give a hoot about what anybody thinks of me, or of tongues. Maybe I am like a Peter, who tends to jump up and start cutting off ears, the baptism is not a cure all to get us out of the flesh. You can make no distinction between Holy Spirit, Jesus and God, there is one God period, whether he manifest himself as Jesus, Holy Spirit, or God. When people get on this forum and begin to run down Holy Spirit manifestations, calling his manifestations of tongues babbling, or any other of his gifts as useless, It just really upsets me. To me that person is attacking, and deriding Holy Spirit, not me. No man on this earth can win over what God has put in me. I really do believe that this sort of thing displayed here is of a demonic coaching to compare acts of Holy Spirit to Ellen White, or hold any manifestation of Holy Spirit in derision in any manner. More over its just scary as all get out, to attribute manifestations of Holy Spirit to evil, due to what Jesus had to say about it. Now we can claim once saved always saved till the cows come home, but Jesus words will never be put asunder by any man, not me, not you. I just don't believe derision of the manifestations of Holy Spirit has a place here at all, it needs to be dealt with sharply and succinctly lest we become a part of it by association and our silent approval. It reminds me though of the old Merl Haggard song, when you’re running down my country hoss, you’re walking on the fighting side of me.  When you’re running down my Jesus, or Holy Spirit, you’re walking on the fighting side of me. Its very true that I have been cut from rough cloth, when most of you were in your genteel schools, I was out on some construction gang, driving fast, and drinking hard, or sitting out the rest of a week-end in some jail cell. I went from hard knocks, to just hard. I have a lot to overcome, and Holy Spirit is my only hope in this world, for he is Jesus presence in this world. If my mannerisms and lack of polish are any indication of hell, I’m probably heading there. But displays of flesh, mannerisms, or habits, do not over rule Gods miracle of salvation, however undeserved and unfit for him or it, any of us are. Like a paint job depends entirely on the base, when we try to measure the fruits of the Spirit, the base has to be looked at first. Does it have an evil base? Speaking against the Holy Spirit, or his manifestations, has a base of evil under it, and we best not be involved in it. IMHO. The best example I can give as to what I am talking about is contained in Acts 5:34-39. where the manifestations of the Holy Spirit was acting through Peter and some more people. If the manifestations of tongues or prophesying, or other such manifestations are not of God, whether it is me or anybody else, it will come to nothing, but, as in Acts 5:39, if it is of God you won’t be able to overthrow it. Running up against God is like running up against a brick wall. That’s what I begged Fischer to do, just let it alone, and he went against that advice. I begged him and debated with him as a brother in Christ at first, but he would have none of it, so I have turned him and it over to God. But there is a lot at stake here on this forum, because people need to learn to take every word of God seriously and in context. That’s the bottom line. River | ||
| Dennis Registered user Username: Dennis Post Number: 1913 Registered: 4-2000  |
Grace, Thank you for sharing your thoughts on an important issue dating primarily from the nineteenth century. The truth is that visioning and tongues speaking are both extrabiblical (parascriptural) revelations. This means that Holy Scripture alone (Sola Scriptura) is not sufficient for a Spirit-led life. Therefore, any extrabiblical revelations (i.e., visioning, glossolalia, channeling, spiritism, etc.) repudiate the battle cry of the Protestant Reformation (the Five Solas). Think about it! Is someone a true Protestant who does not believe in sola scriptura? Did the Reformers fall on the floor and speak in unknown tongues? How could God use them so mightily without speaking in tongues or having a private prayer language? Dennis Fischer | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 8050 Registered: 3-2004  |
Last summer I was listening to the Christian radio station as I left work. The pastor was talking about an incident that happened in Big Bear, CA. He was at a conference when some one in the back of the room started talking in tongues. I do not remember if he was asked to leave or not because there was no one to interpret. At the back of the room was the bar and the bar tender was there. After the meeting the bartender went to the pastor and told him that the man speaking in tongues was speaking the bartender's language and was praising God. The bartender became a Christian because of that. I have to study more about tongues. It is on my list of things to study from the Bible. Diana L | ||
| Snowboardingmom Registered user Username: Snowboardingmom Post Number: 560 Registered: 11-2005 |
River, I actually agree with you. That's what upset me so much last night, because it wasn't against speaking in tongues as much as against the workings of the Holy Spirit, and I think that's treading on dangerous ground. But you know, I actually stayed up praying about it last night (the EGW reference was what really bothered me--I actually couldn't even sleep) and was reminded that I, too, once had a bad view of it. I've been on both sides of it, so I'm willing to extend a little grace. I repented of my anger, and am trying to see it from my previous perspective so that I won't get so uptight . Dennis, you refer to them as "extrabiblical revelations". I don't get what "revelations" you're referring to. I see it as worship, not revelations. I don't get what you're referring to when you say "revelations". A revelation of Jesus? And that's bad, because...? Sorry, I'm not following. I think you're jumping to conclusions because of your stance. Furthermore, would you classify discernment or wisdom as "extrabiblical"? When you come across a situation, and you know in your spirit that something's not right, is that "extrabiblical"? Again, I would say that most healthy "charismatics" (I hate using that word) would say that their experiences all fall within Scripture. I know for me, I test everything by Scripture. If it doesn't fall in line with God's Word, then I'm guessing flesh is getting involved. In addition, I don't believe that Sola Scriptura is insufficient for a Spirit-led life. Quite the opposite. That's all we really have! God's Word is living, and it's His revelation to us. But that doesn't mean He limits Himself only to His written word. God is personal, and He meets us where we are. I'm feeling bad for carrying this on as far as I have. (Richard and Colleen, feel free to delete these posts if you want). I know this has been discussed um-teenth times before. I don't want to rehash old stuff. But I just couldn't keep silent. River is right in that this is not just "theological". While the debate may actually be theological (whether the gifts are present day or not), blanket ignorant statements regarding the Holy Spirit comparing it to the dark side of Adventism is not good. That's a whole different level, and that level is teetering on dangerous. Here is a link to a sermon Mark Martin preached on it for those that are interested: http://www.calvaryphx.com/podcasts/podcastfiles/mp3/am120609mp3.mp3 Grace | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 11060 Registered: 12-2003  |
Dennis, I also totally understand your persepctive, but again, although I do not speak in tongues, it is not because I disbelieve the gift. What I object to is the characterization of God's true gift(s) as being "extrabiblical revelation". The true gift of tongues, or of wisdom or knowledge or preaching or teaching or mercy or healing or administration...any of those things—has nothing at all to do with "revelation". Moreover, if they venture outside Scriptural revelation, they're not from God. You cannot argue against what God has given His church by creating a straw-man argument and then criticizing the gifts based on a false assumption. Scripture remains the bottom line for all activity within the church. If people practice what they call "manifestations of the Spirit" outside a Scriptural framework, measuring and evaluating everything according to the words of Scripture, that is not a gift from God. God will not manifest Himself to people contrary to the Bible's clear teaching. God also is not "in a box", so to speak. He is GOD. He can and does meet people and reveal Himself to them as He actually is and as He is revealed in Scripture, and we cannot decide that God "wouldn't" do what the Bible clearly says He does. In my mind this is exactly the same issue as declaring that "God wouldn't punish someone in eternal hell". The Bible clearly says God will punish people in hell. The Bible also says God gives people the gift of tongues according to His own will; who are we to say He no longer does that? The Scriptures do not say that with the final assembling of the canon of Scripture, the gifts of the Spirit ceased. To attempt to fortify this argument with Scripture is to interpret Scripture in a way that the context does not clearly support. God is God, and He actually indwells His people. We cannot safely declare that God won't do what the Bible says He does. At the same time, we cannot claim biblical authority for manifestations that deviate from Scriptural models. People who claim gifts of the Spirit but behave as unbelievers are clearly double-minded, and James says they are unstable. We cannot trust them. We can trust God, however; His word is very clear about His own interactions with His people! And Jesus was direct with the Pharisees about the danger of blaspheming the Holy Spirit. Interestingly, the context of Jesus' "unforgivable sin" talk (Matthew 12) was that the Pharisees accused Jesus of the "controversial" activity of casting out demons by the power of Beelzebub. His response was stating that one dare not call the work of God, the work of Satan. We dare not make the Pharisees' error! Colleen | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 3185 Registered: 10-2004 |
The other day I heard Chuck Smith say something interesting on one of his radio programs. He was talking about how tongues is speaking to God, even when it is done in a congregation (which is what 1 Corinthians 14 says), and that therefore a genuine "interpretation" must also be a prayer to God, and not something directed toward the congregation. He said that he thinks that sometimes when the latter happens instead, it is actually the gift of prophecy at work instead of interpretation. My point is that speaking in tongues is not extra-Biblical "revelation"--it is simply talking to God (prayer/praise/worship). It is not "revelation." The clearest explanation of tongues is the chapter of 1 Corinthians 14. All one should need to do is read that whole chapter, and it's about as clear as can be. Jeremy | ||
| Dennis Registered user Username: Dennis Post Number: 1914 Registered: 4-2000 |
Jeremy, According to Webster's New Universal Unabridged Dictionary, the terms "extrabiblical" or "noncanonical" refer to anything not included in the canon of Holy Scripture. Dennis Fischer | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 3187 Registered: 10-2004 |
Dennis, What I said is that tongues is not new "revelation." It's simply praying in the Spirit to God. Jeremy | ||
| Dennis Registered user Username: Dennis Post Number: 1915 Registered: 4-2000 |
Actually, Jeremy, tongues speaking really is new revelation--that is why interpreters are utilized in public settings. The charismatic congregation awaits the latest word from God. The idea that God still is revealing truth beyond Scripture and the teaching that Spirit baptism is subsequent to and separate from salvation creates two classes of believers--the HAVES and the HAVE-NOTS. Moreover, the mysticism that is innate in charismatic teaching, which encourages people to denigrate reason, elevate feeling, and open their mind and spirits to powers they cannot understand. As long as those ideas lie at the core of charismatic belief, error and extremism will continue to overgrow the movement. Dennis Fischer | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 11061 Registered: 12-2003 |
Dennis, it looks to me as if you're confusing "a movement" with normal life in the Spirit as described in Romans 8. I believe that Jeremy is saying what I am trying to say also. When I say God gives His gifts to the church, I am not referring to any movement's teaching. The "teachings" of so-called charismatic "movements" may differ from one another, and at any rate, I have not studied them nor do I endorse them. I am referring only to what I read in Scripture. God is God--and what a charismatic church may say defines the Holy Spirit's work may be vastly different from what the Bible says. We cannot negate the plain words of Scripture by internally referencing a movement's "theology". They may bear almost no resemblance to each other! To equate the biblical gifts of the Spirit with a movement is as disjunct as equating all Californians with the Democratic party. Colleen | ||
| Dennis Registered user Username: Dennis Post Number: 1916 Registered: 4-2000 |
Colleen, Any "movement" or group involves actual individuals--such as the Millerite Movement did. I am convinced by history, theology, and the Bible that tongues ceased in the apostolic age. And when it happened, they terminated together. The contemporary charismatic movement does not represent a revival of biblical tongues. It is an aberration similar to the practice of counterfeit tongues at Corinth. Tongues were a transition between the Old and New Covenants. History records that tongues did cease as Scripture indicates. It is interesting that tongues are mentioned only in the earliest books of the New Testament. Paul wrote at least twelve epistles after 1 Corinthians and never mentioned tongues again. Peter never mentioned tongues; James never mentioned tongues; John never mentioned tongues; neither did Jude. Tongues appeared only briefly in Acts and 1 Corinthians as the new message of the gospel was being spread. But once the church was established, tongues were gone. They stopped. The Greek verb used in 1 Corinthians 13:8 (pauo) means "to cease permanently." The later books of the NT do not mention tongues again. Nor did anyone in the post-apostolic age. Significantly, the gift of tongues are nowhere alluded to, hinted at, or even found in the Apostolic Fathers. Another erroneous belief of charismatics is the early and latter rain of the Holy Spirit--akin to SDA dogma. Such teachings are a denial of Pentecost. Dennis Fischer | ||
| Jrt Registered user Username: Jrt Post Number: 1023 Registered: 10-2008 |
Keep in mind the first part of 1 Cor. 13.
If I look at 1 Cor. 13:8 it says,"will cease". I don't think we should leave out a very important word like will - if we believe every word of scripture is inerrant. Especially when "will" indicates future tense. Now if we look at the whole of 1 Cor. 13 we can't miss the following verses ... vs. 10 ... "When the perfect comes the partial will be done away." Perfect indicates when Christ comes again ... because perfect certainly hasn't arrived yet! Then vs. 12 says, "For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face; now I know in part, but then I shall know fully just as I also have been fully known." Wayne Grudem (who is probably the foremost scholar today - versed in Greek and Hebrew) writes about this topic in Bible Doctrine: Essential Teachings of the Christian Faith. He points out the things I have underlined and bolded above. That these gifts do not cease until we see Christ face to face at his second coming as interpreted by the texts above.
Furthermore, Grudem carefully shows that speaking in tongues does include utterances of praise (pg. 421). This is also implied in 1 Cor. 13:1 - tongues of men and of angels - praise. 1 Cor. 14:2 says, "One who speaks in a tongue speaks not to men but to God. Acts 2:11 is another indication of praise ... "We hear them telling in our own tongues the mighty works of God". ... There is "no indication that the disciples themselves were speaking to the crowd until Acts 2:14, when Peter then stands and addresses the crowd directly ..." Keri P.S. I agree with what Colleen has said above concerning a need to be discerning ... | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 11063 Registered: 12-2003 |
The issue of spiritual gifts is not one over which Christians should divide. To be sure, adding to the gospel in any way is a line in the sand one must not cross...but saying that "sign gifts" ceased forever is not Scripturally "provable". While there are many explications of 1 Corinthians 13:8 based on various understandings of verse 10: "but when the perfect comes, the partial will be done away," the context of this passage includes verses 12-13 where Paul concludes his thought with this: "For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face; now I know in part, but then I will know fully just as I also have been fully known. But now faith, hope, love, abide these three; but the greatest of these is love." Given the context of the whole passage, it seems Paul is referring to the return of Jesus. Without some external interpretation, I would never understand "the perfect" in verse 10 to refer to the completion of the canon, as I know some people say. I do not see how a person can arrive biblically at a cessationist viewpoint unless they interpret 1 Cor 13:8-10 as meaning these gifts will cease permanently when Scripture has all been compiled. Yet the plain, normal meaning of the text would not lead one to understand this passage to mean Scripture. Context supports the return of Jesus. (Even John Piper is not a cessationist!) Even so, this question should never divide the body of Christ. The timing and means of the Spirit's gifts are not what determine who is born again and who is not. Faith in the Lord Jesus is what coincides with being born again. His gifts to us result from that new birth. We can have differing beliefs about this question and still have fellowship in Christ! It's not an issue for debate and figurative sword-drawing! Colleen | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 11064 Registered: 12-2003 |
Oops--I just now saw your post, Keri! I agree. Colleen | ||
| Animal Registered user Username: Animal Post Number: 744 Registered: 7-2008  |
Jesus loves me, this I know,for the Bible tells me so.....so simple , so encompassing. Why the debate?...I dont know why.,,,sigh ...Animal | ||
| Dennis Registered user Username: Dennis Post Number: 1917 Registered: 4-2000 |
Speaking of "sign" gifts having permanently ceased, I don't know any persons being raised from the dead at funerals these days. Yet, in apostolic times, the apostles raised people from the dead and instantly healed people of serious diseases. In fact, very routinely, the presiding clergyman at a funeral doesn't even pray to bring a deceased person back to life. He knows better than to make himself a laughingstock in front of the bereaved. How about you? Have you witnessed someone being raised from the dead? No casket resurrections in my city. Since I am now a senior citizen, I read the local obituary column more faithfully than before. Yup, believe me, no sign of "sign" gifts at local mortuaries here in Lincoln, Nebraska (just as Scripture foretold). Dennis Fischer | ||
| Jrt Registered user Username: Jrt Post Number: 1026 Registered: 10-2008 |
And so I choose to avoid any more foolishness for the body of Christ need not divide - If I read 1 Cor. 13 - love should rule between those whom He has called to Himself. The Word of God is for His glory - as Colleen said, not a means of sword-drawing between believers. Keri P.S. Dennis ... may I recommend that you watch the true story and documented video called, "Faith Like Potatoes". | ||
| Animal Registered user Username: Animal Post Number: 746 Registered: 7-2008 |
Potatoes have faith?? Guess I missed the office memo huh?...LOL LOL ....Animal | ||
| Jrt Registered user Username: Jrt Post Number: 1027 Registered: 10-2008 |
LOL ... no missing the office memo. Actually, Animal - it is a DVD that I got a while ago (I think you can find it in video stores or places like Walmart, etc.). It is a true story about an European farmer in South Africa (I think that is where) ... one part of the DVD is the "movie" part of his story and then there is a documentary of his story. He is interviewed and there is actual footage of his story ... Enoch (I believe has watched it) and Colleen and Richard have. I just thought it might pertain to some of Dennis' thoughts or at least challenge them ... It isn't about speaking in tongues - but about how a man has lived his faith out through the "Spirit" and some pretty miraculous things that have taken place. Miraculous things - in which it seems Dennis (forgive me for speaking in third person) doesn't believe happen "in this age". Hope I got your curiosity up . The documentary is just as good or better than the the movie. It is not something sensational - but rather a detailed documentary of living with an enormous faith in God to do the miraculous even now. It seems we move this dialogue of spiritual gifts and speaking in tongues from scripture to experience to scripture to experience. Mind you I do see the need for discernment in this area - but as you can tell I choose to "agree to disagree" with Dennis. And I'm going to leave it at that. It really is quite an amazing story - I think there may be a book concerning it - though I haven't read it. Here is a link to the trailer ... http://www.imdb.com/video/screenplay/vi3948741145/ Keri | ||
| Dennis Registered user Username: Dennis Post Number: 1918 Registered: 4-2000 |
Keri, A defense of the Christian faith that the "sign" gifts have permanently ceased is certainly not in the category of foolishness. Moreover, there are numerous aberrant beliefs that are associated and/or surround charismaticism (i.e., spirit-baptism being subsequent to and separate from salvation, God is still revealing truth beyond Scripture (even though the biblical canon is closed), two classes of believers (the HAVES and the HAVE-NOTS), the innate mysticism in charismatic teaching which encourages people to denigrate reason, elevate feeling, and open their mind and spirits to powers they cannot understand, second coming of the Holy Spirit, tricotomy, private prayer language, prayer cloths, etc.). I am not even going to elaborate on the charismatic extremism that has led many to uncontrolled barking, jumping, crawling, climbing, and laughing. Interestingly, some of these same unbiblical beliefs are found in Seventh-day Adventism as well. All in all, any attack against the biblical view of the nature of God, man, and salvation is a very grave matter. Indeed, it is very important to be observant about what we replace Adventism with in our lives. Satan has a complex and sophisticated belief system for every type of human personality and preference. Thus, getting the Gospel right should be our top priority. As you already know, former Adventists have alot to learn and unlearn. It certainly is not fun to admit to one's friends and loved ones that we were dead wrong about many things--even in the most important things in life. May God continue to grant each of us the wisdom to decipher the difference between truth and error. His grace still amazes me, Dennis Fischer |
