| Author |
Message |
Jrt
Registered user
Username: Jrt
Post Number: 1028
Registered: 10-2008
| | Posted on Thursday, March 18, 2010 - 8:14 pm: |     |
Dennis,
Forgive me for not being clear - I was meaning to imply that it is foolish for this topic to divide the body of Christ. Topic meaning speaking in tongues being a gift of the Spirit that has ceased/not ceased. And I have outlined above why I choose to believe this spiritual gift has not ceased - scripturally. As I have stated we do need to be discerning about other things.
And I certainly didn't mean to imply that speaking in tongues was foolish.
Speaking in tongues was the topic that I was posting about - but I see you put it in a category with many other things.
Again, we agree to disagree about speaking in tongues being a gift of the Spirit that has ceased/not ceased. This was what I was posting about as outlined in 1 Cor. 12-14 in my post above.
I see that this really is a conversation that is going nowhere and therefore, with Christian care, I choose to bow out of it, knowing that we agree to disagree about speaking in tongues being a gift of the Spirit that has ceased/not ceased.
Keri
P.S. I shared the movie, "Faith like Potatoes", because there are things in the movie that pertained to what you posted - though not on speaking in tongues. |
River
Registered user
Username: River
Post Number: 6129
Registered: 9-2006
| | Posted on Friday, March 19, 2010 - 7:03 am: | |
Keri,
Your post number 1023 was very good, further more, Concerning 1Cor. 13:8-13 gifts, in contrast to love are partial and temporal, not eternal.
they communicate imperfect, rather than perfect knowledge, everything in this age is as a child, including all gifts.
Rather than suggesting the demise of such gifts during this age or at some point in church history, the passage proves just the opposite.
While the inspired word of God was completed at the end of the first century, its completion didn't signal and end to the very powers it describes.
Rather it instructs us to welcome the Holy Spirit gifts and ministries in our lives to round out our sufficiency for ministry to a needy world through the word preached and the word confirmed.
You can't ride the fence on sessation-ism, sessation-ism is a niche that is dangerous to people desiring to come out of Adventism and beginning to rightly divide the Bible.
To a person coming out of a cult such as Adventism, sessation-ism offers a way to transfer the same methods used in Adventism over to a different set of dogmas that requires no faith, and has no teeth.
As in Adventism, sessation is a passive thing which requires no belief other than what is seen in the physical world.
Its an easy out for an Adventist to latch on to sessation-ism, thank God most do not choose the easy way out. They begin reading the Bible in context and accept the Bible for how it reads and so grow eventually into some semblance of spiritual maturity.
Hebrews 11:1 goes like this, :Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
I know three former Adventist so far that have received the baptism in the Holy Spirit, and all three say they speak in tongues in prayer, and praise. But this is not about tongues, tongues are just the cessation-ist favorite whipping boy. No more, no less.
One of these former Adventists used to be my biggist critic.  I used to just bug the former no end with the things I said about this.
I wrote the former a letter and ask, what about now? And the former wrote back and more or less said, "Wow." Thats the answer I always get is just "Wow!"
As I said, tongues is the favorite whipping boy, because the very idea is so outrageous, Ha!
It is, and its glorious! All Gods gifts are glorious, it is glorious when God uses his children to minister through the gifts he chooses at the time, it is glorious to see a sinner come home. It is glorius to see someone standing with their arms raised in abject worship of a deserving savior.
If any of you read my story called 'God, Are You Up There?' It is about 98 % a factual account of my own journey in the early years. I just told it in story form as fiction, but most of it is fact.
If tongues were the only whipping boy, we might all have a problems, but what about the other gifts? What do you do with gifts of healing?
My youngest son is mentioned in the story,it had the doctors at Kern Medical center scratching there heads, amazed that their services were no longer need for that baby with a busted head. X-rays don't lie.
When you sit under a minister who is being anointed by the Holy Spirit, one can see a big difference between that, and an old passive sessation-ist droning on like a dead man.
I just about as soon to hear a dog bark myself.
And what do you do with the witnesses like Grace, call her a Lier? What about it Grace, are you just getting on here and telling us whoppers?
Better be careful when you think you wouldn't be caught speaking in tongues, God is liable to Baptize you in his Holy Spirit, then give you the gift of tongues. Then you'll have to choose between obeying God in some service or being a coward! The gift of tongues as Paul was preaching about in the twelfth chapter of Cor. is only half of the gift, it also takes an interpreter, which you may not have the gift of interpretation,s just tongues. Thats what he gave me, and I had the choice, either get up the guts to use it, or sit like a coward in my seat, at one time before more than a thousand. You better not be praying for something you know nothing about, he might give it you, and I gar-on-tee you, you will be praying mighty heavy that there is an interpreter in the house!
So what do you do with the three witnesses?
What do you do with me? I'm telling you it real and it's here. And I got just about the guts of a gnat.
I'm telling you all, its real and its here. Accept the testimony or reject it, ain't no skin off my nose, bet you it ain't no skin of Graces nose either.
It is a great blessing to be used of God in ANY of the gifts, even though its only a temporal thing, if temporal things like the gifts are a great blessing, think of what the future holds, it will be indescribable, when all these things are laid aside.
No, you can't duck out and ride the fence on this.
Either it is real just as Paul spoke it, or its not.
River |
Jrt
Registered user
Username: Jrt
Post Number: 1031
Registered: 10-2008
| | Posted on Saturday, March 20, 2010 - 6:50 pm: | |
River,
I'm afraid I will probably sound redundant - so I'm going to respond in brief. Your post seems to be addressed to everyone in general - yet, you do address it to me. At least that is how I'm reading it.
You are very right concerning the power of the Holy Spirit in the life of the believer.
I think of all the texts that talk about having ALL we need for life - because of the life of Jesus Christ that was given for us. Yes, the Holy Spirit in us is real today for the building of the church, and for power to proclaim and worship Christ. I do believe as already stated by Colleen that those who receive Jesus Christ live in the Spirit (Rom. 8). As both Grace and Colleen mentioned we also live the life in the Spirit according to His word --- the Word/scripture that was given to us - both Old and New Testament - I believe it is the Living Word (scripture). We have the Word and the Holy Spirit and yes, I do believe miraculous things happen yet today through spiritual gifts as outlined in the New Testament. Probably the most miraculous are the fruits of the Spirit (Gal. 5:22-23) - though they are not directly seen as a physical manifestation - they do manifest themselves in how we live in this world.
As has been stated we need discernment. We are to test (1 John 4:1-4) and through His Word and the Holy Spirit - be discerning.
So without being redundant - I have resonated with both Colleen and Grace's posts above, and also with words of caution regarding deceptive manifestations. For me, I was addressing more specifically the gift of tongues. As scripture states there is, indeed, one Spirit and one baptism and one body (Eph. 4:3-6).
Again, I think I would be redundant from what has already been posted in the discussion above.
I really have nothing more to add that has not already been shared.
I'm not sure if you were looking for a response from me concerning something specific - or was stating what you did to those reading.
Keri |
River
Registered user
Username: River
Post Number: 6135
Registered: 9-2006
| | Posted on Saturday, March 20, 2010 - 10:53 pm: | |
Keri,
This part of the post was meant for you: "Your post number 1023 was very good,"
The rest was meant for whoever, no, I wasn't looking for a response since I think you post was pretty well inclusive.
I stated what I did to anyone who might be interested, or might get some good out of it, or to provoke those reading to thought.
Sorry about the confusion. We each have a message, a song or a thought, that is the way the body of Christ works.
(:River
River |
Jackob
Registered user
Username: Jackob
Post Number: 542
Registered: 7-2005
| | Posted on Sunday, March 21, 2010 - 2:35 am: | |
Hello friends, do you remember Mwh (Martin Willemoes Hansen)? He was never a SDA, had a friend who was adventist and he organized a Former Adventist Summit in Europe. At this summit he presented a book which in my estimation is one of the best books on tongues, "Tongues Revisited: A Third Way". You'll find on his site some other articles on the same subject if you don't have the time to read the entire book. Check the resources under the heading "Tongues" from the following page
http://jesufrelse.dk/en/content/view/19/11/
For those who want to read more, the book "Tongues Revisited" can be downloaded for free from this site:
http://www.tonguesrevisited.com/
Enjoy
Gabriel
(Message edited by Jackob on March 21, 2010) |
River
Registered user
Username: River
Post Number: 6140
Registered: 9-2006
| | Posted on Sunday, March 21, 2010 - 8:08 am: | |
My issue is not whether tongues are real or not, or whether there is a third way, or a fourth way, or a 100th way.
Tongues are merely the whipping boy that is drug out every single time the gifts are mentioned,or every single time the 12th, 13th, and 14th chapter of first Corinthians is mentioned.
I myself have prayed much about what tongues are, the reason for them, and was led to an answer to what I believe they are, and their purpose. When I got done with the article and as it developed my answer to God was, 'Lord, they will never believe this, I am not sure that I believe what I think you are leading me to believe here.’
So to be honest, outside of the explanation that I came up with, I don't know what they are.
And I sure ain’t going to show the article to this crowd.
All I do know for sure is that the charismatics line up on one side, the non-charismatics line up on the other and there results a free for all.
I am reading the book referred to, but right away, at the outset the author uses words like 'charismatics steam rolling the church' and it says right at the beginning the he is strongly anti-charismatic, which puts me on the alert to examine, not only every word, but his motives.
There cannot be a discussion on first Corinthians 12, 13, and 14, without it degrades into a free for all over whether or not tongues is real, and so tongues becomes the whipping boy, we drag him out to the whipping post and just flail the daylights out of him.
People like Fischer come in and claim that charismatics are involved in non-nonsensical babbeling, and that we as charismatics do not have the ability to trust the word of God, or that we have a terrible inner conflict, and by the time he gets through, he has beat his favorite whipping boy to a bloody pulp. No wonder wars break out. What would we do without tongues for a whipping boy? Revert to M-16's?
Come early, be sure to get a seat around the whipping post. Hear the crowds go wild as tongues is drug out before the crowd and the giant theologian picks up his cat-o-thirty tails with sharp bits of lead tied into each one.
The crowd goes wild as the first pleasurable strike brings blood! Waaaaaaa…! Goes the audience as tongues slumps under the onslaught! Then the lions of great theological and studied wisdom are released in the arena, and the crowd goes absolutely bonkers!
My issue is not tongues, my issue is whether or not God works the same today as he did when first Corinthians 12, 13, and 14 were written, because the way I interpret the Bible to read, I get the stupid notion that God is the same today, yesterday and forever. Now why would I get that out of the bible? Here tongues, let’s drag your tired butt out here, and just change the subject, while we whip on you, we can forget about this other stuff!
Then when we get through each taking a turn on tongues we can drag 'division' out for a grand finally. We can all go home, happy and satisfied that we have evaded the issues.
While there is a very real need for reconciliation in the body of Christ and not division, cessation denies whole sections of the word and renders it useless for teaching, for correction, and for comfort.
Cessation is a false teaching, therefore how can we be reconciled with a false teaching?
It would be the same thing to go back into the Adventist church and say 'brothers let us be reconciled; I will accept your false teachings and teach them to my grand children for the sake of reconciliation.'
Adventism is a false assumption.
Cessation is a false assumption.
Sensible Christians who are grounded in the word of God will know this.
How can we take a fire to our hands and not be burnt?
Cessation, as in Adventism, while having a form of Godliness, yet denying the power of God, brings sure truth to IITimothy 3:5 and we are instructed to turn away, not reconcile.
Where does the idea come from whereby we must surrender and deliver up our faith in God, his power, and his word in order to bring reconciliation?
Reconciliation is where love grows, and love cannot grow in false teachings, it cannot flourish, while love can grow in reconciliation in peoples that do seek truth in Gods unadulterated word.
How can this not be an issue for debate? It not only deserves debate, it deserves open rebuke.
It shouldn't be a question for debate, because it shouldn't be here at all.
We, as Christians should not have to wade through a minefield of false teachings, and false assumption on the plain word of God to bring reconciliation.
Cessation is passive in that it requires no faith, no commitment, and no teeth.
In John 5:16 the Jews persecuted Jesus and in John 5:39 he told them, Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.
What is the difference between sessationist who constantly search the scriptures in order to persecute other Christians for speaking tongues, when in reality they are not persecuting the Christian in question, but Jesus himself?
Just as before, this man began to deride, sneer at, and hold in open contempt those that do partake of Gods gifts, and he continues to do it now. Where can there be fellowship and reconciliation? On what grounds?
People who cry Soli Deo Gloria while at the same time rendering large slices of Gods word to none effect, by claiming it has ceased today, cannot be trusted as a brother or sister in Christ.
This man is a true child of Ellen G. White, he simply transferred the same mindset over to what he has now. Afraid of faith the same as Adventism, so he wants nothing accept what he can see with his own eyes. Its nothing more than a form of works, he wants to get into heaven by his brain.
Lets avoid the whole issues presented in 1 Cor. Chapter 12, verses 8 thru 11, and bring out our whipping boy.
Would be theologians say if Paul just had not used the word tongues in there…here, lets change it to something else! There now, don’t that sound better and more educated?
Oh…and if Paul had just not inserted that word ‘unknown’ in there…here lets change that too, and lets get to work on that whipping boy out there in the middle of the arena…isn’t it just delicious the way he slumps over? All bloody from the last round? Makes my mouth water with anticipation of my turn at the whip…Bring out your dead to see the sight, maybe they will come to life. If not, surely when we bring out division, that will do the trick, after all, division works like alka-selser to calm our stomachs after we have gorged on tongues. Makes me feel all justified for riding the fence, and not taking any side.
Right away the guy that wrote yet ‘A Third Way’ goes into steam rolling, and charismatic putting fear into hearts by saying a critic might be near attributing what the other critic says to the unforgivable sin, then he proceeds to say that a person might be speaking in tongues thinking he is praising God, when in reality he might be cursing him to his face. Now that is a new twist! I guess he forgot about all those scriptures that describes how those who put their trust in God will not be disappointed!
He has so far, with just a little way in, instilled real confidence in his book and hearing what he has to say. Yep…can’t wait to read on about how there might be a third way to say ‘tongues’.
$Tell Saint Peter at the golden gate…. that I hate to make him wait! $ but I just gotta have another go at tongues……..$
Here…gimme another book, and while you’re at it give me a turn at the whip.
Uh… Uh…I do have a question? Uh…sirs…I do have a question? Uh…oh sir…
Yes, what is it River?
Well…uh…uh…sir, I was just wondering if these things spoken of in the 12th, 13th, and 14th…uh… chapter of Corinthians…well…uh…you know…them tongues, healings, words of them knowledges, and stuff like that and all…uh…has ceased…uh…how do I know what all hasn’t ceased…uh…or what has? (swallow) (whew!)
River.. you turnip! How many times have I told you not to interrupt me while I am holding forth here. Guard… oh GUARD… escort that idiot out of here!
Oh please sir…before you drag me out…please tell me…how is god going to confirm the parts of the word that has ceased?
Get that sinning scoundrel out of here, before I drop kick him into the middle of next weak!! And while you’re at it…take old Hec with you, they both ask entirely to many questions. (clatter clatter) (doors banging) (yelling, kicking and screaming coming from outside)
(: |
River
Registered user
Username: River
Post Number: 6142
Registered: 9-2006
| | Posted on Sunday, March 21, 2010 - 9:07 am: | |
(Muffled yelling coming from outside the building)
Ohhhhhh Sir...uh... oh sir! Where do we come up with the term 'sign gifts?' when the gifts are for the use of the body, and the tongues are for a sign only to the unbeliever, are all the rest of them thar' gifts a sign too? An a sign O what?
GUARD! Go out there an muffle that Marmot! That River has got to go! Tie that Pole Cat to the side of the Catholic Church down there, they got good thick walls!
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Skeeter
Registered user
Username: Skeeter
Post Number: 594
Registered: 12-2007
| | Posted on Sunday, March 21, 2010 - 10:01 am: | |
River,
I have to admit that when it comes to "tongues" I am one of those "fence sitters" I have not as of yet gained enough knowledge about the subject to have a definite opinion one way or other.
The Bible is so full of so many things to learn about and I am trying to be a "sponge" to soak it all up and understand, but this old sponge of a brain of mine just doesnt soak knowledge up like a brand new sponge,,, so its kinda slow going. I gotta soak up some knowledge, then double and triple check Gods word and then sometimes wring that sponge out to get rid of the things I didnt get right and start soaking up stuff again :-/
Since I have so many other issues I need to get clarified, what I personally think about tongues is not important right now. But it is clearly VERY important to you.
Right now MY personal opinion is that if God has given you and others a "gift" and that gift brings you into a closer relationship with the Lord, then I have NO right to tell you that you should not have that gift.
I believe God gives "gifts" to everyone. I dont believe EVERY gift is given to EVERYONE, but just because I do not understand and have not been given a certain "gift" does not make that "gift" any less real to those who have received it.
I believe that ANY gift that is given from God that brings us into a closer relationship with Him cannot be anything but good.
So since you have it in your heart that "tongues" is a gift that God has bestowed upon you to bring you into a closer relationship with Him, then how can I be anything but happy for you :-)
I still have a LOT of issues to deal with myself....As soon as I read this statement:
"Tongues are merely the whipping boy that is drug out every single time the gifts are mentioned,or every single time the 12th, 13th, and 14th chapter of first Corinthians is mentioned."
It just popped into my head that as an Adventist I felt the same way about the Sabbath.
I felt the 4th commandment was "the whipping boy" out of the Ten. I just could not understand WHY other churches would uphold the other nine and yet want to throw out #4. It was not until I started to understand the difference between the old and new covenants and that the 4th commandment was the "sign" of being under the old covenant that I could begin to understand.
I still do not believe there is anything "wrong" with worshiping God on the Saturday "Sabbath" as long as it was not made mandatory. Neither would I go to a "Sunday" church that insisted that Sunday is THE right day. I believe "TODAY" is the right day to worship God. (oops today is Sunday) LOL But you know what I mean... The problem as I see it, is that those churches that DO hold services on "Sabbath" are so wrong on so many other issues so that I feel I cannot (as you say) "go back and pet the snake".
But yesterday I did send a dose of "anti-venom" if you will... into the snake pit.
Hope it gets used. :-)
Skeeter/ Francie |
River
Registered user
Username: River
Post Number: 6143
Registered: 9-2006
| | Posted on Sunday, March 21, 2010 - 12:45 pm: | |
Skeeter, what have you done now? Went and got yourself into trouble?
I'm going to have to name you Skeeter River!
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Jackob
Registered user
Username: Jackob
Post Number: 543
Registered: 7-2005
| | Posted on Sunday, March 21, 2010 - 3:51 pm: | |
"Tongues Revisited" was not written for charismatic readers, rather for those non-charismatics that are somehow on the fence regarding this issue, those who are dissatisfied with the approaches found in i{both} camps who argued either pro or against the modern tongues as being God's supernatural gifts. Of course, logically it must fall in one camp, it falls in the non-charismatic camp, which indeed will not recommend it in the eyes of the charismatics.
Nevertheless this book, while taking its particular position in the theological battle, it reflects his author's pastoral concern for not offending charismatics as much as it is possible. Chapter 11 is entitled "Grace in times of Conflict" and it contains seventeen suggestions for conduct in a theological civil war, as the author put it. They reflect his experience with the divisions and painful experiences his own church went and you'll find his pastoral heart throughout the book.
At the same time the author is aware that he may encounter objections from charismatics and non-charismatics alike and he pleads with his readers for a little patience, dedicating an entire chapter for answers to objections. In the final instance, if somebody will agree or not with the thesis of the book is irrelevant if he had read the whole book and not just parts of it, and had engaged his arguments and the overall thesis. I think that people who are undecided or unsure about this subject should not miss reading this book. They should at least be aware with the perspectives that are advanced over this subject. What somebody will do with the content of the book is not my direct concern, my concern is for people to know that there are alternatives to the approaches with which they are until this moment familiarized.
Gabriel |
Skeeter
Registered user
Username: Skeeter
Post Number: 597
Registered: 12-2007
| | Posted on Sunday, March 21, 2010 - 4:49 pm: | |
"Skeeter, what have you done now? Went and got yourself into trouble? "
Dont know yet :-/
My (adopted) daughter is married to a SDA from a VERY conservative SDA family,, very into Ellenism, etc. I am just thankful (in this instance) that Priscilla even though married to a SDA and attends SDA church,, she has somewhat of a learning disability and so I know she is not absorbing a whole lot of the crap from the church doctrines. We talk a lot and she does not believe that SDA is the "remnant" church, etc.
She stayed here at our house last Monday- Sat while we were gone to Nevada ( I got to meet Diana) :->
Anyway, her hubby picked her up yesterday (Sat) morning and they went to church at the SDA location where my membership is.. (still havent written that letter to have my name removed,, gotta do that) anyway.... it is a very small church with only 20 or so members, mostly elderly and there is ONE couple there that I think (hope) would listen and possibly do something about the errors... He is active in a prison ministry and was a "regular" Christian before getting sucked into SDA several years ago when he was going through a rough time (divorce, and some other issues) so I wrote them a short letter and sent it with my daughter to give to them along with 5 CD's and asked them to please listen to them and let me know their honest opinion about them. I signed off the letter by telling them that for the past couple of years my favorite saying has become "When a man who is honestly mistaken learns truth, he will either quit being mistaken, or quit being honest".
The Cd's I sent them are the 3 part set by Mark Martin on "The Gospel and the Covenants", also by Mark Martin, his sermon on Romans 14, and Gary Inrigs Valentines Day sermon "Accept no substitutes".
I gave them my phone number, cell number and email address to respond. I hope they will, and if so, Richard is just the one (in this area of 3 churches, one small and 2 quite large) to take the information to heart and share it openly both in and out of church.
There were many more I would have liked to send,, but thought I better not overwhelm them with too much at one time.
Just waiting, hoping and praying it will do some good somehow.
Just a small dose of "anti venom" but sometimes a small amount is all it takes if applied in the right place. Have to just wait and see.
Skeeter |
River
Registered user
Username: River
Post Number: 6144
Registered: 9-2006
| | Posted on Sunday, March 21, 2010 - 5:03 pm: | |
Gabriel,
By all means, have a read at the book, he said something that I agree with already, he said, 'if a thousand books hadn't cleared the air on the subject of tongues, there's room enough for one more.' Can't argue with that much.
I think many people has attempted through writing to clear the air once and for all.
I at least like the fact that you are getting it from a confessed layman's view point.
The layman usually doesn't have an axe to grind, so you get it fresh off the press instead of something thats been repeated a thousand times in a thousand ways which run together in one big glop of shmoo. |
River
Registered user
Username: River
Post Number: 6145
Registered: 9-2006
| | Posted on Sunday, March 21, 2010 - 5:16 pm: | |
Skeeter, I think you probably did well, if it don't happen all at once, don't get down, we just sow, and its the Lord who gives the increase.
Course I know I am preaching to the quire, so forgive that, just trying to encourage you to keep your head up.
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Nowisee
Registered user
Username: Nowisee
Post Number: 324
Registered: 5-2009
| | Posted on Monday, March 22, 2010 - 3:36 pm: | |
Good for you, Skeeter! What an opportunity--I will pray that his heart is receptive. The covenants are SO important to start with--when you understand them, the other stuff makes good sense. And God speaks through Gary's sermons, plain and simple. |
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