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Colleentinker
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Posted on Tuesday, March 09, 2010 - 11:50 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I just posted this quote under "BibleStudiesforAdventists.com Now Online", but I wanted to be sure everyone saw it. If this quote were true, Jesus couldn't be God:


quote:

Jesus' ministry began with a special anointing in which the Father gave Him the Holy Spirit and His gifts without measure. It was this constant presence of the Holy Spirit and His fruit that empowered and enabled Jesus to overcome sin.

Jesus is our best Example of how to live a Spirit-led life. His close communion with the Father shone through all aspects of His life. Tempted by Satan himself, Jesus showed self-control and remained strong (Matt. 4:1-11). Falsely accused and beaten, He was calm and gentle (John 18:1-11). Pleading with God in despair, He remained faithful (Mark 14:35, 36). Put to death by His own people, He forgave (Luke 23:33, 34).

Jesus manifested what it means to bear the fruit of the Spirit. He was so in tune with God that all these things became a natural part of His character (emphasis mine).




This quote is on page 153 and 155 of the Teacher's Edition of the quarterly for the present quarter. You can read it online here: http://absg.adventist.org/2010/1Q/TE/PDFs/ETQ110_13.pdf

Colleen
River
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Posted on Wednesday, March 10, 2010 - 5:06 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

As I read those quotes, so many scriptures ran through my mind, who was and is Jesus, and what was his and is his purpose?

Probably the most predominate, if there is a predominate scripture is contained in these few verses.

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
John 1:2 He was in the beginning with God.
John 1:3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made.
John 1:4 In Him was life, and the life was the light of men.
John 1:5 And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.

The darkness of this false cult, does not comprehend him it seems.

River
8thday
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Posted on Wednesday, March 10, 2010 - 7:26 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

You know - you can deny stuff all day long pointing to your doctrinal statement - but stuff like this is very revealing!

You simply can't be IN TUNE with God - and have His character BECOME a part of your nature - if you ARE God. You are so right. This reveals a very faulty underlying view of who Jesus is. Thanks for posting that! Printing!! :D
Sondra
Believer247
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Posted on Wednesday, March 10, 2010 - 7:27 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

All I can say is Wow.... the longer I am out that cult, the more horrifying the beliefs are. Just a few short years ago I would have been reading that quote and teaching it in the class, never comprehending what it is saying about Jesus.
John 1 : 1-5 also came to mind River, as I read the quarterly quote.Adventists do not understand those verses at all. I thank God everyday that I am out of that darkness.
Hec
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Posted on Wednesday, March 10, 2010 - 1:05 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Isn't this because SDA separate Jesus as God, and Jesus as man? They say that Jesus put his "Godness" aside when he came to the earth as a man. So as a man he had to receive his power, will, etc from the father, as any other man would have.

Hec
Animal
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Posted on Wednesday, March 10, 2010 - 2:15 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Jesus didnt cease to be 100 percent God when He came down to earth as a babe in a manger.How can God "set aside" God ??? Cant happen. How I wish this had been clearer to me when I was a SDA. Now I understand the foolishness of such theology.

Doesnt the Bible teach that God does not change?

Animal
Colleentinker
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Posted on Wednesday, March 10, 2010 - 2:35 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Yes, Animal--and moreover, Colossians 1:19 says, "For it was the Father's good pleasure for all the fullness to dwell in Him…"

In other words, ALL the power of God was in the incarnate Jesus—even the power of omnipresence. ALL means ALL.

Colleen
River
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Posted on Wednesday, March 10, 2010 - 2:35 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

quote: Isn't this because SDA separate Jesus as God, and Jesus as man? They say that Jesus put his "Godness" aside when he came to the earth as a man.
________________________________________________

No, its not as innocent as that Hec, they are saying that Jesus came to earth to set an example on how to live and honor God, thereby denying his glory as God.
Jesus came to save man, he came as the sacrificial lamb, as in John 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

River
Hec
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Posted on Wednesday, March 10, 2010 - 3:46 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

There are so many nuances that the SDA puts on concepts that when one is immerse into the organization, one doesn't even thing about it. It just came to my mind that for SDA, Jesus cannot be Immanuel (God with us) because He really was not God, but a man giving us an example of how to obey the law. According to SDA Jesus was God, but God was hiding, dormant, and Jesus had to live like any other ordinary man. No wonder some say that the Adventist Jesus is no Jesus at all.

Hec
River
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Posted on Wednesday, March 10, 2010 - 4:39 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Yes Hec, so many nuances that puts the true and biblical concept off track and askew.

I'm not just saying this to rail on Adventist, railing on Adventist is not a national past time here, its too help correct the errors people have been stuck with for a life time.

It takes time to adjust to a different way of thinking, and a different way of life, and everybody coming out has about the same roe to hoe.

It is because of the nuances of Adventism that takes the gospel off track that it takes so long to adjust.

But Hec,one day you will look back on this and smile, because God will teach you as you go.


:-) River
Jrt
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Posted on Wednesday, March 10, 2010 - 5:35 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Exactly, Hec. That IS why some of us say the Adventist Jesus is no Jesus at all. You can't have both. It is an impossibility when it comes to "God". You can't have God ever lose His "godness" otherwise He would cease to be God. And Jesus was fully God AND fully man while on earth. Here is what my Greek/Hebrew NASB Bible says in the notes regarding Phil. 2:6-8.

quote:

The entire passage in Phil. 2:6-8 deals with the humiliation of Christ for the purpose of dying. It is brought forth as an illustration of humility (v.3). This humility is expressed in thoughtfulness of others (v.4). And then comes the illustration of how Christ humbled Himself and in His death He thought of nothing else but others. Although He was God incarnate and He could avoid death, He did not do it for the sake of man. He allowed Himself to die in His manhood. A translation more expressive of the true meaning of the Greek text of this passage would be, "Who, Christ, being in the form of God." The word translated "existed" is the Greek huparchon, which means that He was in continuation of what He had been before. It is not the participle on, from emi (1510), but the verb huparchon from huparcho (5225), which in this context means "being what He was before." Being in His essential form as God (Jn. 1:1), He continued to be that when He became and continued to be man. And then the second statement is "... did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped." He did not consider being equal with God as something to be forceably grasped frm God. His essence of deity was not something that He took at any time, but it was something that He always had and never lost.

Then in v. 7 we are actually told what He voluntarily did in order to make possible His humiliation unto death: "But emptied Himself." The verb "emptied Himself" in Greek is ekenose, from the verb kenoo (2758) in the active form. Nobody took away from Him what He was, but being Himself God, He voluntarily emptied Himself. It does not tell us of what He emptied Himself. Jn. 17:5 provides the meaning in the very words of Christ Himself. Prior to His death, He was asking the Father to glorify Him in a position next to Him (that is the exact meaning of the Greek), with the glory which He had (imperfect tense eichon, which means from all the way back in the past, before the world was). The glory (doxa,1391)comes from the verb dokeo(1380), which means to think, to recognize. Doxa, glory, is the recognition which the Lord Jesus had with the Father before the world was even created and before He came to this world. The Lord Jesus lacked this full recognition by men on earth while He was the incarnate God, but He had never lost this recognition insofar as the Father was concerned and it was His to enjoy again after the resurrection. That is the meaning of Jesus emptying Himself. .... [[[There is more, but this is what the Bible ways this passage can be literally translated, "Who (Jesus Christ) being - having always been - in the form of God, He did not think it robbery to be equal with God, but Himself He emptied, when He took the form of a servant, when He became in the likeness of men and when He found Himself in shape as a man, He humbled Himself when He became obedient unto death or until death, the death of the cross." ... Christ was not half man and half God. He was wholly man and wholly God. We meet with incidents in His life which compel us o say categorically, "This is God; and we also meet with incidents which force us to say as emphatically, "This is man." Jesus prayed because He was a man. Human nature, even in Him, was a feeble, tender thing. He had to fall back upon the strength found in prayer. It is the uniform teaching of the N.T. that Christ, with regard to the Godhead, is equal to the Father, but with regard to His manhood, is inferior. Hence, when Christ says, "But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven nor the Son" (Mt. 24:36), He meant that He knew it not in the sense of making it known, as it formed no part of that revelation which He was commissioned to disclose to the world. As the Messiah, He was the delegate of the Father and only delivered such doctrines and instructions as were in keeping with that mission. See Col. 1:15.




Adventists attribute to Jesus a sinful "nature" - that He was able to overcome "sinning" with the help of the Holy Spirit - something that we can do too. NO, Jesus never had a sinful nature [find me a Biblical text, please] (yes, Jesus was tempted in a human body - but body and sinful nature are not the same. This is where our Adventist definitions did us wrong, I'm thinking.) If Jesus had a sinful nature while on earth - He could not be our Savior (for sin would have been in Him and scripture says Jesus was without sin), - Jesus' only purpose on earth was to be our Savior (not our example as Adventists would teach).

Here is an excellent exposition of sinful nature on CARM using Biblical texts by both sides.
http://www.carm.org/religious-movements/christadelphianism/did-jesus-have-sin-nature-christadelphians-teach

Keri
Dennis
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Posted on Wednesday, March 10, 2010 - 5:48 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The theological term "homoousios" became an important factor at the Council of Nicea in 325 A. D. This term describes the relationship between the Son of God and the Father. Later it was used to describe the relationship of the Holy Spirit to the Father and the Son and thereby was instrumental in the developing doctrine of the Trinity.

While this use of "homoousios" still leaves some questions unanswered, the term was useful and a necessary one in that it seemed to express better than any other term an essential part of the biblical description of the Father-Son relationship in such a way as to decisively refute the Arian doctrine that the Son was a created being, wholly other from the Father, and having his own beginning.

Dennis Fischer

(Message edited by Dennis on March 10, 2010)
River
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Posted on Wednesday, March 10, 2010 - 6:04 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I think maybe the words Jesus emptied himself might mean that he emptied himself of his glory, by being 100% man, to have God, in his perfect glory to stoop to come in the form of his creation is something I can't quite get over, for his glory in indescribable.

But now I'm just feeling around, trying to understand what I can, so not sure if that's what it means or not.

River
Doc
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Posted on Thursday, March 11, 2010 - 12:54 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Here are some notes I made when I taught a Christology course:

"The self-emptying Christ -

According to Philippians 2: 6-8, Christ emptied himself when he took on the form of man. This is the basis of the theory of kenosis. Various views exist, as to the way in which Christ emptied himself.

1. He emptied himself of his divinity.

According to this, Christ laid down his divinity when he took on humanity. Jesus, however, was always aware of his divinity.

2. He emptied himself of divine attributes

According to this, Jesus laid down certain divine attributes, such as omnipotence, omnipresence and omniscience. He retained the moral attributes, however, such as love, righteousness, holiness and life. If Christ had done this, however, he would not be fully God.

3. Christ only appeared to lay down divine attributes

According to this, Christ did not lay down any of his divine attributes, he just acted as though he had. In such case, however, Jesus would not have been honest.

4. He laid down the use of divine attributes

According to this, Christ retained his divine attributes, but did not use them. We see in the Gospels, however, that Christ did use his divine attributes from time to time.

5. Jesus laid down the independent use of his divine attributes

Christ in becoming a man did not cease to be God, neither did he give up the possession or use of the divine attributes. God was not changed into a man, but rather he assumed the nature of man without ceasing to be God.
According to this, “kenosis” means that Christ added the human nature to his divine nature, and gave up the independent use of the divine attributes. He gave up the privilege of acting as God, and submitted himself to the Father’s will."

I believe number 5 is the generally accepted "Evangelical" view, and it seems to me to be the best too. I got the information from systematic theology books by Kevin J.Connor and John F. Walvoord (one is Pentecostal and the other Evangelical, and they agreed on this).

So, Jesus is God, always was, always will be.
Adrian
River
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Posted on Thursday, March 11, 2010 - 6:48 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Quote: Jesus' ministry began with a special anointing in which the Father gave Him the Holy Spirit and His gifts without measure. It was this constant presence of the Holy Spirit and His fruit that empowered and enabled Jesus to overcome sin.
__________________________________________________

John 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.
________________________________________________
Now I wonder how that works out in their mind? God gave Jesus the Holy Spirit, then Jesus sent him on too us? Sort of like passing the hat? First I wear it, then you wear it, then Joe wears it and so on? Or did they ever think of that? :-)

Or am I being sarcastic again? I just can't figure out, what they figure out, what I figured out that they ain't figured out yet. :-)

River
8thday
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Posted on Thursday, March 11, 2010 - 11:52 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thanks for that summary Adrian! Most helpful!!!!

It wasn't until I was sitting in church with a very wise pastor teaching on John (within the last 3 years) that I finally realized that I STILL had a lesser jesus in my head. I had never gone back to evaluate what I believed about His Divinity, but when I heard the truth, I knew what I had always believed was far short of that. Very vital point to understand!
Sondra
Colleentinker
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Posted on Thursday, March 11, 2010 - 5:35 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Sondra, you're absolutely right. I agree; your summary is very helpful, Adrian!

Unless we understand the truth about Jesus, we relate to Him wrongly. If we have a warped enough view of Him, we can't be saved because we're not exercising saving faith in a Savior. Paul Carden made this point during the Q & A session at the FAF weekend.We're trusting in a false Jesus, and sincerity doesn't save one.

Colleen
Skeeter
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Posted on Thursday, March 11, 2010 - 6:48 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I agree FULLY with the above posts... as a SDA we (or I) had a warped sense of who Jesus really is...
I didnt think of Jesus as "GOD the son" but rather as "the SON of God" it was like He was some sort of a lesser God, not as powerful as God the Father somehow.:-(
Now that I know that He is not ONLY the Son of God, but also GOD the son, it gives Him a whole new significance to me. :-)

Colleen, do you know when the FAF weekend links will be up ? I know everyone is very busy with other things,, and I have been trying to be patient... :-) I have been checking every day hoping there will be a day or two up.

Francie
Colleentinker
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Posted on Thursday, March 11, 2010 - 11:00 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Francie, the audio tracks will be up first--Richard is planning to put them up tonight. Video will follow soon...

Colleen
Sharon3
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Posted on Friday, March 12, 2010 - 4:55 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Our Pastor talked a little about this Sunday. Paul could have used his Roman Citizenship to keep himself out of jail. He didn't consider being Roman Citizen to be used for status. It wasn't until later that he used it and appealed to Rome. That helped me see how Jesus was God, but didn't use it to save himself and yet still be God. Correct me if I have this wrong or if you can clarify it further. I'm still learning.

I've appreciated the dialogue on this thread.
Skeeter
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Posted on Friday, March 12, 2010 - 9:17 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Colleen,
Give Richard a hug ! :-)
I have downloaded all the audio that is available and put them on my ipod and cant wait to listen to them ! :-)
Francie
Animal
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Posted on Saturday, March 13, 2010 - 6:03 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Animals love hugs too...hehehehehe
Flyinglady
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Posted on Saturday, March 13, 2010 - 7:17 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

(((((((((((((((Animal)))))))))))))))
A cyber hug for you Animal.
Diana L
Animal
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Posted on Saturday, March 13, 2010 - 7:49 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Awwwww....

bless you my friend !!!

huggs back at ya (((((((( Diana))))))))
Skeeter
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Posted on Saturday, March 13, 2010 - 12:30 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Didnt mean to leave you out Animal :-)
(((((( Animal)))))) + rootbeer and popcorn . :-)
Skeeter
Animal
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Posted on Sunday, March 14, 2010 - 10:44 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Such emotion...I tink I a gonna cry !!!!!!
Animal
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Posted on Sunday, March 14, 2010 - 10:49 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The Power of Hugging

Hugging accomplishes many things that you may never have thought of. It ...
feels good
dispels loneliness
overcomes fear
opens doors to feelings
builds self-esteem (WOW, SHE actually wants to hug me!)
fosters altruism (I can't believe it but I actually want to hug that old son-of-a-gun)
slows down aging (huggers stay young longer)
helps curb appetite (we eat less when we are nourished by hugs and when our arms are busy wrapped around others)


More Good Things from Hugging

eases tension
fights insomnia
keeps arms and shoulder muscles in condition
provides stretching exercise if you are short
provides stooping exercise if you are tall
offers a wholesome alternative to promiscuity
offers a healthy, safe alternative to alcohol and other drug abuse (better hugs than drugs!)
affirms physical being
is democratic (anyone is eligible for a hug)


Even More Benefits from Hugging

is ecologically sound (it does not upset the environment)
is energy-efficient (saves heat)
is portable
requires no special equipment
demands no special setting (a fine place for a hug is any place from a doorstep to an executive conference room ... from a church parlor to a football field)
makes happy days happier
imparts feelings of belonging
fills up empty places in our lives
keeps on working to dispense benefits even after the hug is released
****************************************************************************************************

So remember...spread the Huggs around and make the world a better place.

...Animal
Philharris
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Posted on Sunday, March 14, 2010 - 11:31 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Benefits of hugs:

Shortly after I mentioned I would be at the FAF Conference, one of the other posters said I would have a hug waiting for me when I showed up. Since I just knew this was a ‘God ordained’ event and I was driving all of thirteen hundred miles to get there, I knew I would arrive safely in spite of my driving skills.

When one of my co-works was recovering from the shock of the sudden death of her brother a couple of weeks ago, I shared the store of my own brother’s death. Turns out we both love the Lord and shared where we were in our Bible studies. We hugged and the pain eased for both of us. Talk about a two-way blessing.

Ah, the power of hugging.

Fearless Phil
Flyinglady
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Posted on Sunday, March 14, 2010 - 12:18 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I have read that to maintain mental health one needs 20 hugs per day. My son's first girl friend had read the same article. When she saw me, she would give me 20 quick hugs. She still does.
Diana L

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