| Author | Message | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 11006 Registered: 12-2003  |
My point, Jim, is not to parse words to make a point. I didn't explain myself well. Annihilationists use that text, as Leigh Anne mentioned, to say God destroys the wicked. This conclusion however, does not mesh with the texts that say the wicked go into eternal punishment where they will be tormented day and night forever and ever, etc. Whenever there appears to be a contradiction, we must assume there is a way these apparently opposing statements make sense. Sometimes we simply have to conclude that we don't understand but it is all true, nevertheless, because the Bible states it. In my own study of this about 11 years ago, as I prayed for God to show me what was true, I began to realize that I had automatic assumptions about what words meant. As I read the passages from the Bible, I began to see that my assumptions did not mesh with the words of the Bible. I had to conclude that my assumptions, not the biblical words, were wrong. "Death" was the first word I had to look at. If we have immaterial spirits, "death" cannot be what I thought it was as an Adventist, because the Bible clearly states that to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord if we are believers (2 Cor 5:1-10). That would mean that "death" could not be "ceasing to exist". It had to mean something I hadn't considered while shaped by my Adventist worldview. I began to realize that "death" had to mean a separation of body and spirit, not a ceasing to exist. Likewise, "destroy" in the passage above does not automatically mean "cease to exist". The laws of physics alone (if they mean anything in eternity!) say that one cannot lose any mass or energy. If mass is destroyed, it translates into energy, and vice versa. We don't lose "matter" or "energy". Therefore, it is not a stretch or an arbitrary play on words to say that "destroy" doesn't mean "cease to exist". When we destroy a car or a building, that thing itself may no longer be there, but there is material that still exists, even though it's "state" is different. Similarly, a person destroyed in hell is clearly no longer alive...but "LIFE" is defined in the Bible as being connected to God, the Sole Source of Life. For someone to be unable to be in relationship with God—and therefore unable to relate to anyone else either—is not LIVING. It is not human. Such a person's humanity is destroyed eternally. I'm not trying to say I know what people look like or experience in hell. I'm only saying that we can't assume the words mean what our Adventist worldview taught us they mean. After all, we learned a lot of words wrong: atonement, Sabbath, "fulfilled", death, etc. And I appreciate both Chris's and Leigh Anne's points: we are to understand God as He has revealed Himself in the Bible, not as we are taught a loving god "would be". A loving God is exactly who He is—and He is what He has said He is in Scripture. The point of these difficult passages is not to prove theology; they are to teach us to fear God, not men. Colleen | ||
| Jim02 Registered user Username: Jim02 Post Number: 943 Registered: 5-2007 |
I lost sleep last night over this , and I have to get ready for work. Words must have definite meaning or communication is not possible. If you go to Bible Gateway .com And search on key words such as destroy, eternal and so on, you will get loads of examples of where each word is used. When I looked up destroy. It is evident what it meant. To tear apart, to cease existing in it's former manner, a rapid moving away of parts from where they once were, to cease function, to end assembly or organization. I am not concerned that the matter on the molecular level may continue to exist or that the energy force continues to exist. If you are destroyed, you cease to be coherrent, you become randomized, having no organized construct, you no longer exist. Another observation: Words have multiple usages in languages. This alone can create endless debates. In the final analysis, I am left to attempt to recieve a teaching based upon the contrasting references throughout the scriptures and plain common sense. This is one of my main issues with theology and religon to begin with. You cannot trust the data becuase the data (words) have different values or meanings. The scriptures are not exhaustive. They contain only partial information on just about any topic raised. Then when we are forced to reason within the closed circle of scripture alone, we cannot even agree on the words meanings, applications, usage, translations and so on. We are forced to best guess. Theology becomes a game of wits on one side and random blind faith on the other because ultimately in the human mind it is subjective (subject to personal view and beliefs) if for no other reason the data given is inconclusive or with multiple values or meanings for the same words. Where does that leave me personally? The preponderance of the whole. Common sense. Plain communication. Dissonance ,If it does not fit, then something has gone wrong in the application, usage or translation. We all aspire to claim the insight of God's Holy Spirit. My Spiritual insight tells me that Hell is not eternal in the literal sense. Other's Spirit tells them another position. Whose Spirit is correct.? Then we set about convincing each other they do not have the Spirit or they possess a false Spirit. This then becomes it's own mobious strip. Jim | ||
| Lori Registered user Username: Lori Post Number: 103 Registered: 11-1999 |
I find this discussion very interesting and in reading all the posts it brought to mind a paragraph from the "The Shack" which says...."many folks try to grasp some sense of who (God is) by taking the best version of themselves, projecting that to the nth degree, factoring in all the goodness they can perceive...and then call that God." God created beings with volition. He created beings that could make decisions independent from his own thinking. We can act independently of God's will. This is evident in Lucifer, the highest angel...the arrogance of his five "I wills" are documented in Ezek 28: 12-15: I will ascend in heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God, I will sit upon the mount of the congregation, I will ascend above the heights of the clouds, I will be like the Most High. These "I wills" were placed before all the angels of heaven in opposition to the will of God. Each angel made their own decision. A loving God allowed them to use the volition He created in them and then that same loving God did not annihilate them when they did not chose His will. What kind of loving God would give you the ability to decide and then annihilate you because you didn't chose HIS way? So it is with humanity...we have been given the right to chose. Furthermore, just as with the angels, everything has been made clear, so we are without an excuse. No one will stand before the judgment of God and be able to say, "Oh, I didn't know...I never heard that." Romans 1 "For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities-his eternal power and divine nature-have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that man are without excuse.....they exchanged the truth of God for a lie and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator who is forever praised." The angels who chose to follow Satan did so knowing the Truth of God. And, humanity who chose to follow Satan (and yes, that is the only other choice...those who chose to reject God...reject Christ...they make a choice based on the same arrogant "I wills" of Lucifer) do so also knowing the Truth of God. They have made their decision...they have chosen their Master. And, God in all His Essence (Righteousness, Justice, Love, Sovereignty, Omniscience, Omnipotence, Omnipresence Immutability Veracity, Eternal Life and Love) is a Gentleman above and beyond any gentleman we can ever imagine and therefore does not impose His will on any of us. What more can you ask of God?? In His integrity he reaches out to us repeatedly and then when our decision is made (AFTER we are given all the information...AFTER it has been made perspicious to us....AFTER all that)....that is when God allows us to HAVE IT OUR WAY! Personally, I believe that these issues are between a person and God. Yes, I believe there is a right answer and I feel very confident in my understanding of hell, the lake of fire, the destiny of unbelievers. It's really hard to accept something that goes against your frame of reference. It's really hard to accept that God would do something that the best person we can think of wouldn't do. What's really easy is to search the Scriptures for things that support what you want to believe. So, no matter what position we take, we need use this challenge to earnestly search the word of God. We need to study to show ourselves approved unto God, workman that need not be ashamed, rightly dividing the Word of Truth. | ||
| Grace_alone Registered user Username: Grace_alone Post Number: 1658 Registered: 6-2006  |
Here are some verses regarding an eternal hell: Matthew 3:12 (NASB) 12 “His winnowing fork is in His hand, and He will thoroughly clear His threshing floor; and He will gather His wheat into the barn, but He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.” Matthew 18:8 (NASB) 8 “If your hand or your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it from you; it is better for you to enter life crippled or lame, than to have two hands or two feet and be cast into the eternal fire. Matthew 25:46 (NASB) 46 “These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.” Mark 9:43 (NASB) 43 “If your hand causes you to stumble, cut it off; it is better for you to enter life crippled, than, having your two hands, to go into hell, into the unquenchable fire 2 Thessalonians 1:9 (NASB) 9 These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power Jude 7 (NASB) 7 just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, since they in the same way as these indulged in gross immorality and went after strange flesh, are exhibited as an example in undergoing the punishment of eternal fire. Revelation 20:10 (NASB) 10 And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.” I looked up the meaning of the word "destroy". There are a couple of meanings, Destroy 1 : to ruin the structure, organic existence, or condition of <destroyed>; also : to ruin as if by tearing to shreds <their> 2 a : to put out of existence : kill <destroy> b : neutralize <the> c : annihilate, vanquish intransitive verb : to cause destruction I found another definition which was "to render useless". Here is the definition of Eternal: 1 a : having infinite duration : everlasting <eternal> b : of or relating to eternity c : characterized by abiding fellowship with God 2 a : continued without intermission : perpetual <an> b : seemingly endless The common Greek definition is "forever and ever" as well as "ages of the ages". If eternal does NOT mean eternal in the literal sense, then what's the point of eternal life? Why are we bothering with that? Since there are a couple of definitions of the word destroy, then we would have to find the definition which best matches up with Jesus's words as a whole (That's common sense, right?). It's also important to look at the doctrines themselves. What did the early church believe? What did Jesus and the disciples say about it? At what time in history did the doctrine change and under what circumstance? Who is teaching it now? And of course, does it line up with what the early church taught? These are facts through Biblical texts I'm presenting on the subject of eternal Hell. If you believe you are an annihilationist, please present biblical evidence that after a period of time God will annihilate the wicked. Please also present the evidence of "the loving god who would never punish a person eternally" (mainly because I don't believe I've ever seen a text like that in the Bible). Let's get a dialog going. Leigh Anne | ||
| Sharon3 Registered user Username: Sharon3 Post Number: 18 Registered: 2-2010 |
The last pillar is falling. I have been ping ponging back and forth with these discussions. Leigh Anne your scriptures were very helpful and then Colleen, I listened to Gary's sermon this morning on Luke 16. Where was that text when I grew up and where is it in Adventism today? It so clearly speaks of Jesus commands and links so many things together. Gary really cleared it up for me. Now as I read the Bible I will be looking for this truth. Thank you everyone for this dialogue. Sharon | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 3163 Registered: 10-2004  |
Here are some Bible verses (hundreds actually) that I compiled awhile back on what the Bible teaches about spirits, death, and hell, which perhaps some might find helpful: http://www.formeradventist.com/discus/messages/11/9534.html?1258824123 Jeremy | ||
| Hec Registered user Username: Hec Post Number: 893 Registered: 3-2009 |
Leigh Anne Gives examples of several verses which can be used to support a forever burning hell. But they don't necessarily need to be understood that way. Let's see:
The word unquenchable was underlined, but the word "burned up" was not. It seems to me that burned up means exactly that. Once it's burned up there is nothing more to burn. So unquenchable must mean that it cannot be put out until all is burn up.
Eternal fire= unquenchable fire.
Eternal punishment, not eternal punishing. The punishment (death, destruction, etc.) will be eternal. There will be no coming back from there. The life will also be eternal. There will be no loosing one's life. Eternal death = cannot live for ever. Eternal life = cannot die for ever.
Here is the word unquenchable again. No body can put it off.
Eternal destruction not eternal destroying. The destruction will be for ever, eternal. No hope of rebuilding or resurrecting, or coming back. There will be nothing left to come back.
Biblical example of eternal fire. Sodom and Gomorrah are not burning today. When the fire "burned up" the cities, it went off and the cities are no more. The fire lasted until there was nothing else to burn. It was unquenchable.
Lake of fire = eternal fire = unquenchable fire. Hec | ||
| Sharon3 Registered user Username: Sharon3 Post Number: 19 Registered: 2-2010 |
Jeremy, Thanks for the texts. It took 88 pages to print them off, but I will take a look. I'm still seeing the ping pong ball go back and forth. So glad my salvation doesn't depend on understanding this. | ||
| Animal Registered user Username: Animal Post Number: 727 Registered: 7-2008  |
If one truly loves the Lord and accepts Jesus as their savior...God will save you. The Gospel really is that clear and simple. ,,,Animal | ||
| Dennis Registered user Username: Dennis Post Number: 1888 Registered: 4-2000  |
Hec, Were Sodom and Gomorrah annihilated as an example to us? If they were truly annihilated, as conditionalists insist, then those people will not need to face the final judgment being that they were made nonexistent already. Truly, not even God can resurrect someone who doesn't exist. Soul extinction/re-creation, together with Adventism's investigative judgment alibi, affects the nature of Christ, the nature of man, and the nature of salvation (soteriology). Indeed, the SDA view of death is a very serious aberration of the Christian faith. Sodom and Gomorrah illustrate God's fire of earthly judgment, and that His judgments upon the ungodly are sure and certain--a preview of the fire that can never be quenched in eternal hell. The heresy of conditionalism (extinction/re-creation) first became known through Arnobius in the fourth century. Moreover, as early as the Second Council of Constantinople in A. D. 533, the heresy of conditionalism was formally condemned. Centuries later, the great Reformer, John Calvin, devoted his first literary work, the Psychopannychia, to debunk this divergence from the Christian faith.
It is important to remember that the unconfessed and unforgiven sins of the ungodly are FOREVER before the Father. Even in our earthly justice system today, a crime committed against an official, king, or government employee has a higher consequence than a crime against someone else. Sin is nothing less than cosmic treason against a holy God. We can only appreciate God's grace to the extent that we understand the depth of His divine wrath. Dennis Fischer | ||
| Hec Registered user Username: Hec Post Number: 894 Registered: 3-2009 |
Denis, Sodom and Gomorrah annihilated are not an example to us. They are an example of eternal fire. Yes, the people are in hades waiting for their judgment, but the cities were burned with eternal fire which is not burning today. So in this case eternal fire cannot be a fire that last for ever, but a fire that last as long as there is material to burn. Remember that many words have more than one meaning. Hec | ||
| Grace_alone Registered user Username: Grace_alone Post Number: 1659 Registered: 6-2006 |
I guess I could see a possibility of that argument if the spirit world and the earthly world were the same. However I don't believe that's the case. Especially in the comparison with Matt 25:46. Not sure why Matthew would compare the two if the "eternals" if one of the eternals had an end to it. With all due respect Hec, I can see an assumption that there is eventually an end to the non-believers, or that they would be completely extinguished. I still don't see that there, or in any of the other verses. Does anyone have any verses which specifically state that wicked will be annihilated? Thanks, Leigh Anne | ||
| Animal Registered user Username: Animal Post Number: 728 Registered: 7-2008 |
I find no such verses Leigh Anne. But I do pose a question for all.... What would be the purpose of having the wicked burn for all eternity? ....Animal, the Curious One. | ||
| Skeeter Registered user Username: Skeeter Post Number: 555 Registered: 12-2007 |
I wonder that also.... "what would be the purpose of having the wicked burn for all eternity?" Once in Heaven, surely we would not need them kept burning as a constant reminder to us of the consequences of sin.... would that be Heaven ? If God is to wipe every tear from our eyes, if there is to be a NEW Heaven and a NEW earth.. I keep thinking of the earth made over again as it was in Eden before the fall... and how can Heaven be a "perfect" place with no more sorrow, pain or tears if we being there know that there is a place that co exists of "everlasting torment" ? I know God is God and He will do things His way and not the way that any of us think we would prefer... and however He chooses to deal with sinners is up to Him and whatever that way is I KNOW will be the RIGHT choice,,, it cannot be anything but the right way because He is GOD. It is just hard for me to imagine that God would choose to keep sinners alive and burning in torment throughout all eternity. Punished for their sins, yes, of course,perhaps some longer than others dependent on the severity of their sins... It is hard to think of someone who through ignorance or having been deceived, etc being punished on the same level as someone like Hitler and other mass murderers, child molesters, etc. I am not saying I am right.. because I certainly may not be. I guess it is just easier for me to deal with the issue feeling that God will punish those who need to be punished and with the punishment that they deserve for the length of time they deserve with each being judged and punished individually dependent on the severity of their sins. I guess we can keep this discussion going till the cows come home and still not know for sure because different Bible texts say one thing to one person who reads them and something else to another.... I guess I will take it kinda like the verse that talks about the day of worship,, one person observs one day and another sees every day alike,,, let each be convinced in his own mind. We seem to each be convinced in our own minds which way this matter is correct and yet maybe it is one of those things we will just have to wait and see. (at least for me) We will all find out someday, and until then, I am just SO thankful that our Salvation does not depend on our understanding such matters. It is best left in the hands of God who I have complete assurance will handle it the best way whatever that way is. Francie | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 7997 Registered: 3-2004  |
AMEN, AMEN, AMEN!!!!! Diana L | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 3164 Registered: 10-2004 |
Hec, In the Matthew 3 and Mark 9 passages, the Greek word for "unquenchable" is asbestos and literally means inextinguishable. But in Mark 9, the Greek word sbennymi is also used, when it says "where their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched." The word for "is not quenched" is also in the passive voice in the Greek. This means that it is saying that the fire does not even go out on its own, contradicting the SDA interpretation that the fire can't be put out but that it goes out on its own after its work is done. This text can also be compared with Matthew 25:8 where the Greek word sbennymi is again used in the passive voice: "our lamps are going out." Also, according to Strong's, the word "eternal" literally means "perpetual." Thus, "eternal punishment" means perpetual, continual punishment forever and ever. And "eternal destruction" means perpetual, continual destruction forever and ever. This means that the wicked will be tormented day and night forever and ever, as Revelation 20:10 explicitly says. I notice that you completely ignored Revelation 20:10 where it says, "they will be tormented day and night forever and ever." Jeremy (Message edited by Jeremy on March 04, 2010) | ||
| Dennis Registered user Username: Dennis Post Number: 1889 Registered: 4-2000 |
There is already a major precedent of God's divine wrath tormenting fallen angels (created beings) for thousands of years as just a beginning of their woes. Fallen angels never have a good day. Their misery is even worse because they know firsthand about the glories of heaven they have forfeited. Can a conditionalist love and worship a God like that? How can the lump of clay question the Potter about anything? Dennis Fischer | ||
| Hec Registered user Username: Hec Post Number: 896 Registered: 3-2009 |
Jeremy, I did not ignore Rev 20:10. It's just that I though it was covered with the others phrases. "tormented day and night forever and ever" I though as equivalent with eternal fire which I have mentioned. Dennis, I have no problem with God, and I don't question his decisions and acts. I have a problem, and I question the interpretation that some give to some Bible verses, and the dogmatism about it, when there might be more than one way to interpret them. Of course I wouldn't even think of getting into an argument with people who know a whole lot more than I do. I just question and express my understanding as a way to understand better what I might not completely understand. Thanks for putting up with me. Hec | ||
| Dennis Registered user Username: Dennis Post Number: 1890 Registered: 4-2000 |
Revelation 19 and 20 pose an enormous challenge for serious SDA Bible students. Rev. 19:20 describes that the beast and the false prophet are both thrown "into the lake of fire that burns with sulfur." One thousand years later, Rev. 20:10 describes how Satan is thrown into the same lake of fire "where the beast and false prophet are also [present tense]" (NASB). That these two, the beast and false prophet, still appear there 1,000 years later refutes the false doctrine of annihilationism. Notice the plural sequence "they will be tormented day and night forever and ever." Also, Rev. 14:10-11 and Rev. 6:9-11 supports Rev. 20:4 in having the souls of martyrs in heaven. These souls of the martyrs speak with a "loud voice" and even wear robes (Rev. 6:9-11) akin to angels. After all, Jesus said that we will be like the angels in heaven in various ways (i.e., no marriage, etc.). Dennis Fischer | ||
| Jrt Registered user Username: Jrt Post Number: 1002 Registered: 10-2008 |
If I may add a little to what Jeremy has said ... this morning I looked up the passages that you cited above, Hec. I looked them up in my NASB Bible that has Hebrew and Greek words for the texts in a lexicon in the back I know this thread has been discussing the meanings of "eternal" and such - so I thought I'd share from what I saw this morning. The Jude passage vs. 7 uses a different Greek word for eternal than in vs. 6 for eternal ...
Something that strikes me, to my knowledge, is that Jehovah Witnesses and SDA's are the only ones who subscribe to annihilation. This is ofcourse, not an argument of scripture ... but it is interesting that the recognized cult of Jehovah Witnesses would be the only other religious group who subscribes to annihilation as a doctrine. I agree with Skeeter, in that God is totally just and totally grace-filled. As I understand this judgment at the end of time - is not based on "works" of evil or "works" of good, but on whether a person has accepted Jesus as Lord and Messiah (John 5:24; 1 John 5:11-13; John 6:40). Romans 3:10,11 tells us that we all were "doomed" for "hell"; "There is none righteous, not even one; there is none who understands, there is none who seeks for God;". We are all born under Adam's sin (Rom. 5:12) I was doomed for "hell" before I accepted Jesus as Lord of my life and repented of my sin - a sin that Almighty God paid on my behalf - the One True God who calls Himself, Alpha and Omega (in the person of His Son, Jesus, Who came to earth as fully God and fully man;) ... He rose again - indicating that my sins were delt with - because if He didn't rise from the dead I would still be in my sin (1 Cor. 15:16,17). So in actuality hell is what we all deserve. Hitler, me, the neighbor next door .. Yet, Jesus, Who has the same equality as God (In the book of John; Jesus says if know me, you know the Father;), emptied Himself, taking on the form and likeness of men (Phil 2:6,7). Hell, tells me that God is more gracious than I could imagine, because being in the presence of God in the New Jerusalem is something I DON'T deserve. And when we say we could not be happy if ... I wonder if we are looking at our current humanness and not from God's perspective. Guess that is how I see things now. Eternal Hell was the last major doctrine of Adventism to fall for me ... It was very hard to wrestle through annihilation and eternal hell. But the wrestling was worth it. And I think, for me, at some level, I decided to accept it on faith - based on the scriptures I knew spoke of hell as eternal. One last thought; Rev. 20:15 - clearly indicates that after the new Jerusalem comes and after those not written in the book of life are thrown into the lake of fire ...Rev. 20:15 somewhere outside the New Jerusalem (as Jeremy indicated above) are the unbelievers. Keri |
