| Author | Message | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 10991 Registered: 12-2003  |
A friend of mine just emailed me a link to perhaps the best explanation I've read showing why conditional immortality cannot be reality. I'll quote the Q & A below:
I've long understood that we are saved or lost depending upon whether or not we trust in the Sin Bearer, but this explanation of why no sinful mortal can "get out of" suffering eternally is very insightful. The above quote came from this link. Colleen | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 7982 Registered: 3-2004  |
Thank you Colleen. I understand this better. Have to read it again and again to really understand and digest it well. Diana L | ||
| Doc Registered user Username: Doc Post Number: 526 Registered: 2-2003  |
Hey Colleen, That is a really interesting thought. I am going to have to chew that one over a bit. Conditional immortality being the opposite side to salvation by works. I have never come across that before, but it seems to make sense. And of course, both aspects would fit both the JW and SDA scenarios. Thanks for posting that. Adrian | ||
| Grace_alone Registered user Username: Grace_alone Post Number: 1648 Registered: 6-2006  |
"The so-called conditional view of hell is actually the mirror image of works based salvation in that it supposes the absence of bad works merits lighter punishment." WOW. I really appreciate the way the author articulated that. I've always looked at the conditional view as sort of a warped "insurance policy" for those who believe in it. With no assurance of salvation, then it would make sense that the person would hope there would be some eventual way "out" in case they don't make it to Heaven. Leigh Anne | ||
| Snewbie Registered user Username: Snewbie Post Number: 6 Registered: 2-2010 |
Sorry guys and Gals but the Loving God Ive come to know would not keep us alive to punish us for an eternity. Jesus didnt die to satisfy a wrathful God. He died to show us that God has nothing to gain or lose but simply wants us to be with him again. I cant believe you would decide to believe in a God worse than Hitler. Not me. Not ever. No amount of logic, semantics or proof texting(adventist favorites) will convince me otherwise. The whole eternal Hell thing convinced me to NEVER love God and even as a lax sorta evangelical I never did believe in Eternal torment. Not trying to be rude, but even talking about God and eternal torment will make any thinking person run not walk away from God. Its a huge diservice to the Good News. | ||
| Dennis Registered user Username: Dennis Post Number: 1884 Registered: 4-2000  |
Since salvation is from the Lord alone, no theological view causes us to suffer separation from God (the biblical definition of death), if we are truly His elect from before the world was even created. Our sovereign God NEVER goes on a rescue mission that fails. Importantly, no human being nor view can overturn God's sovereign will for our lives. After all, we are not the captains of our eternal destiny. God does not merely help us to save ourselves as our SDA friends insist. Instead, it's all about Him! Soli Deo Gloria!
Dennis Fischer | ||
| Grace_alone Registered user Username: Grace_alone Post Number: 1649 Registered: 6-2006 |
Hi Snewbie, You don't have to believe in eternal Hell. It's not conditional to your salvation. It is biblical though. Also, many of the cults teach a conditional view (as opposed to most mainstream churches which teach eternal hell) which should raise a red flag. I'm a "never-been", raised in the Lutheran church my whole life. I was taught the view of eternal Hell, but never once decided that God was worse than Hitler for creating it. Never once did I feel that God was unloving for having an eternal Hell. I know that he is sovereign and just, and just as he saves the believers and offers eternal life to those who accept Jesus as their Savior, there is also an eternal place for those who reject Him. Plus, as I know Jesus promised us eternal life, then Hell has never been a factor. You just don't think of it when you know you are saved. Again, you don't have to believe that, but on the other hand those of us who do aren't calling God "Hitler". Here's a study (if you're interested) on eternal Hell with biblical verses to support the doctrine. http://www.carm.org/religious-movements/universalism/hell-eternal This is a very reputable Christian web site.  Leigh Anne (Message edited by grace_alone on February 28, 2010) | ||
| Dennis Registered user Username: Dennis Post Number: 1885 Registered: 4-2000 |
What kind of God would have Adolf Hitler die in the arms of his mistress one moment, and then not long thereafter be merely exterminated in a moment? Truly, the unconfessed and unforgiven sins of the ungodly are forever before the Father. Divine justice requires eternal punishment for sin. Sin is cosmic treason against an infinite, holy God. Dennis Fischer | ||
| Snewbie Registered user Username: Snewbie Post Number: 7 Registered: 2-2010 |
Thanks but no thanks. I wont serve or love a God who creates people only to keep them alive eternally burning in Hell. He knows the end from the begginning. You do realize it isnt just about you, right? There will be numerous people you have known in your life that will not find the Lord in this life. It says every knee will bow and every tongue will confess, so they will, but probably too late(Im not a universal restorationist). It also says that God will wipe away every tear in Heaven. Either, he is gonna have to wipe away a lot of your memory and awareness, or you are gonna have to be a special kind of sadistic, selfish person to sit in Heaven and love God while the people(that God "commanded" you to love while on earth) are suffering an eternal torment because they were decieved by Satan in this life. Think it through. Im only telling you this because you are a "never-been" and therefore possibly have not heard this reasoning. The ex-SDAs who hold this eternal torment view, I am even more worried about since they should already have thought this through. You are right about God's justice though, which is presicly why I believe this way. Its one of the main things that attracted me to Adventism. 1Th 5:21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good. While I certainly havent proven it either way, God knows my position on the subject, and I beleive he still wants me, so I'll just have to let it go for now. Unless someone really wants me to respond, I will leave this subject since I didnt come here to be devisive. God Bless. | ||
| Hec Registered user Username: Hec Post Number: 874 Registered: 3-2009 |
Acts 17:28 'For in him we live and move and have our being.' To have our being (or to be) we need to be in him. Does it makes sense that we will be in him being punished for eternity? If we are not in him, them we can't be or have our being, or move, or live eternally being punished. The Bible only promises eternal life in heaven. It never promises eternal life in hell. Some want to say that we will have eternal life either in heaven or in hell. But the Bible teaching is that we will have eternal life in heaven or eternal death in hell. Death being separation from God. When one separates a branch from the trunk, since it cannot receive the life anymore it dies, eventually disappearing. Hec | ||
| Philharris Registered user Username: Philharris Post Number: 2021 Registered: 5-2007  |
Snewbie, Since it is isn't part of the gospel message I guess we can drop it. However, there is the issue of what 'eternal' means when the Bible mentions the "Lake of Fire". After all, the same Greek word is used when we are promised eternal life. Also, what God is really like is far beyond any of use to understand with our finite minds. Some things I just accept on faith. Fearless Phil | ||
| Grace_alone Registered user Username: Grace_alone Post Number: 1650 Registered: 6-2006 |
Snewbie, I think it's interesting that you say "I wont serve or love a God who creates people only to keep them alive eternally burning in Hell" and turn right around and ask me "You do realize it isnt just about you, right?" I can see by your words that you are really angry. I never meant to cause strife. Again, and I say this in all love and humility, believing or not believing in eternal Hell is not conditional to your salvation. And it certainly doesn't matter to me personally if you believe it or not. I'm just offering up facts. There really and truly are verses in both the old and new testament regarding Hell being eternal. God even has the ability to hate. (Romans 9:13) It doesn't mean He is Hitler. Either way He is sovereign. God bless you too ~ Leigh Anne (Message edited by grace_alone on February 28, 2010) | ||
| Snewbie Registered user Username: Snewbie Post Number: 9 Registered: 2-2010 |
Sorry about the hang-up. I was disturbed because I obviously dont really know either way. God will show me the truth in his own time. | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 3157 Registered: 10-2004  |
Hi Snewbie, You wrote:
Are you saying that God does not have wrath? Jeremy | ||
| Dennis Registered user Username: Dennis Post Number: 1886 Registered: 4-2000 |
Hec, The truth of the matter is that those in hell also owe their existence to God alone. Heaven would truly be hell for the ungodly. Thus, God provides a "quarantine" status in hell like He has done with Satan and his angels since their fall from heaven. According to 2 Peter 2:4 (ESV), "For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell and committed them to chains of gloomy darkness to be kept until the judgment." Wow!!! They have been there for thousands, if not millions, of years already. Can a conditionalist love a God exhibiting such divine wrath? It is most likely that this fact would force the conditionalist to create his own god. This is precisely what the Adventists and others have done. John tells us that the ungodly "will be tormented day and night forever and ever" (Rev. 20:10 ESV). Remember, one must be alive to be tormented. Moreover, Jesus himself clearly stated that "these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life" (Matt. 25:46 ESV). The same Koine Greek adjective translated as "eternal" describes the fate of the ungodly as well. Truly, as believers, we can fully trust the Bible and the words from the lips of Jesus. By the way, it takes alot of faith to believe that heaven is eternal as well. No created angel or human being has ever been annihilated. Annihilation is totally foreign to Scripture. Christians are not authorized to base a biblical doctrine upon their feelings or human sentiment alone. The ungodly, when seeing Jesus returning from heaven, will be asking for annihilation/suicide ("the rocks and the mountains to fall on them") but God does not grant such a quick fix. If God really wanted to obliterate the crowning jewels of His creation, He would simply allow the "rocks and the mountains" to do the job quickly. Those who question the fairness of God's ways are standing on slippery ground. The real issue is that conditionalists do not believe that unforgiven sin is really that bad to deserve eternal separation from a holy God. Please be fully assured that nobody will end up in hell by mistake. While heaven would be hell for the ungodly, it would also be hell for the saints if the ungodly lived with them. The truthfulness of the traditional view of death and the afterlife is that it coheres well with other biblical teachings. Dennis Fischer | ||
| Hec Registered user Username: Hec Post Number: 877 Registered: 3-2009 |
...to be kept until the judgment. What judgment if they have already being judge and sent to hell? It seems to me that there is a different explanation to this. If they had been sent to hell (as you understand it) there is no need for judgment. If there is a need for judgment, they have not been sent to hell (as you understand it.) Unless we are talking judgment as the SDAs in a judgment to vindicate God's character. Of course I know that you don't believe that either. Hec | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 3158 Registered: 10-2004 |
Hec, There is no contradiction. The Greek word translated "hell" in that verse is Tartarus, which is essentially a synonym for Hades. They are in Hades now, and will be judged and cast into Hell/Gehenna (the Lake of Fire) after the Great White Throne Judgment. In other words, to put it in the vernacular of the American justice system, these angels are now in a "holding cell" awaiting their "trial" when they will then be "judged" and "sentenced" and then receive their (eternal) punishment. The point Dennis made still remains: that these angels have been in (the temporary) Hell, suffering and being punished, for thousands of years already. Jeremy (Message edited by Jeremy on February 28, 2010) | ||
| Hec Registered user Username: Hec Post Number: 880 Registered: 3-2009 |
Thanks, Jeremy, for the explanations on the different words. Hec | ||
| Hec Registered user Username: Hec Post Number: 881 Registered: 3-2009 |
Kind of out of topic, but if the fallen angels are in prison (tartarus)in darkness, who are the demons that roam earth tempting people? Aren't the fallen angels supposed to be helping Satan? Or could it be said that in this case tartarus is the earth where Satan and his angels are restricted until the end? Hec | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 3159 Registered: 10-2004 |
Hec, Peter is specifically referring to the angels (aka "sons of God") which sinned in Genesis 6:4. See the parallel verse in Jude 1:6. I don't think this is all of the fallen angels. However, if one were to believe the apochryphal Book of Enoch, then "demons" are not actually fallen angels but are the spirits of the Nephilim in Genesis 6:4, the offspring of fallen angels and human women. Jeremy (Message edited by Jeremy on February 28, 2010) |
