| Author | Message | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 10978 Registered: 12-2003  |
I was reading today in the children's books Forever Stories by Carolyn Byers, published by Review and Herald. Tell me what you think a child would grow up believing about God if he were taught these things—and more that I can't quote all at once. For example, in book 1, the story of pre-creation says this:
Do you see separate "gods" here?? In Book four is the story of the crucifixion. Near the end is the account of Judas returning the money to the temple after betraying Jesus. Here's the end of this story:
I hardly know where to start. There is no mention in any of the entire five books of "atonement" or propitiation or paying for sin or dying to give us life. Moreover, did you catch the conclusion above? Jesus died so everyone everywhere could see what Satan is really like. Oh yeah--and by the way--'And what God is really like." He died so people could choose to follow Him. (Next sentence—or fragment...) And be saved. Not so we could be made right with God, justified, made righteous, become children of God... There's so much more, but I've got to do some other things right now.. Reactions? Colleen | ||
| Cordurb Registered user Username: Cordurb Post Number: 64 Registered: 4-2009 |
Colleen, amazing you write about these today. I just noticed these exact new books under our coffee table and began to read. They made me want to vomit. I was getting ready to post and there was your post. These are so far off base and filled with conjecture and blasphemy, I am beside myself. My wife says she is lead by the bible, yet will read these books to our girls. I am trying to figure out how to handle it. These things are from the pit of hell and remind me of The Clear Word bible for kids. | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 7963 Registered: 3-2004  |
I am so glad I could not afford to get those blue books for my son. They are not Byers books, but they tell the same story. The Jesus they talk about is not the Jesus I learned about 5 1/2 years ago. I read my son the Bible stories right out of the Bible. He learned enough about adventism in the 3 years he was in sda school and some still clings to him. Thank you awesome God for not letting me buy those books for my son. Diana L | ||
| Nowisee Registered user Username: Nowisee Post Number: 282 Registered: 5-2009 |
Quick thoughts-- Example #1--Oops! No Holy Spirit mentioned. God & Jesus 'planning a surprise"? Huh? They were surprising angels? Very weird. And I puzzle at the thought that these creations of God "would think up new ideas"--wow--I bet that was a real surprise for God! Example # 2--here is the reason most of us grew up without knowing why Jesus really died for us! The false gospel indoctrination (with sometimes just a hint of the true, to make it a more confusing & subtle deception) starts very, very early. | ||
| Freeatlast Registered user Username: Freeatlast Post Number: 628 Registered: 5-2002 |
Scratches for itching ears... cunningly devised fables...another gospel (which is no Gospel at all)... | ||
| Loneviking Registered user Username: Loneviking Post Number: 720 Registered: 7-2000 |
There's another book out there like that--maybe even worse. I wish I could remember the exact title but it's '(blank, Margie?) asks why?' This is the book that has the stories so far stretched from Biblical truth that I don't know how even SDA's can stand it. | ||
| Philharris Registered user Username: Philharris Post Number: 2006 Registered: 5-2007  |
I am really working this through my mind:
When God created the our physical universe, there was no sin. By this, I conclude that none of the angels, including Satan, had yet sinned. So, I find the statement that all the angels "loved Him" hard to fit into the "big picture". After all, God's plan for our salvation was in place before creation or when sin entered into the equation. So, why would God have such a conversation with his angels knowing some would soon rebel and be cast out of heaven? When we make up stories about God and what God thinks or is doing we really need the mind of God to keep it within the bigger picture. Ellen and Adventist 'story time' simply misses the mark. Fearless Phil | ||
| Martinc Registered user Username: Martinc Post Number: 121 Registered: 9-2006 |
This is a sweet sounding fairy tale that portrays God as two parents telling their 4-year-old about the birds and the bees. "One day, Mummy and Daddy were happy but lonely, and because we had so much extra love to give, we just decided to bring you into the world...and this decision made us even more happy!" So human and touchable and protective of the delicate, inquisitive mind. We often have to tell our children about God in ways they will understand, and I think that being Mommy is what Byers is trying to do. The problem here is that she has injected strange theology into the story, like you have all mentioned. There is no sense of the majesty of the eternal Creator God who had foreordained our creation and salvation from all eternity, not as an after-thought. The two gods are portrayed as very human, who make their decisions in time after deliberating to make sure they agree. The Holy Spirit had no vote on this committee, it appears; three-way marriages are a little too complex for innocent minds. "These things you have done, and I have been silent; you thought that I was one like yourself." Ps. 50:21 The godhead benefits from all this new creation, for these humans would "think up new ideas" that would enrich (the godhead's) lives and add to their pleasure. Perhaps we are nitpicking here, but I don't think so. The bi-theism is strongly implied, and not limited to just this passage. God's unity, eternal nature, and purposes are avoided. | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 3153 Registered: 10-2004  |
I think the author got the basic narrative from EGW (and not from the Bible, of course). In fact, the Bible does not have a narrative for "pre-creation"! At Creation is when God created time and angels--there was nothing "before" that. God is outside of time (eternal). EGW, in her "pre-creation" narrative, also has two gods planning it all, and has no "Holy Spirit" at all. So that may be why this author presents it that way--just following Ellen. Then later in her life, EGW added in a third god to her theology. Jeremy (Message edited by Jeremy on February 26, 2010) | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 3154 Registered: 10-2004 |
Cordurb, You are the spiritual leader of your family. You can't let your children be deceived by these horrible books. The only thing I can tell you is that you're going to have to do whatever it takes to protect them from Adventism. Jeremy | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 7968 Registered: 3-2004 |
Cordurb, make special time with your kids and read them stories right from the Bible. I did that with my son, as an SDA b/c I could not afford those books. Thank our awesome God I could not. When you kids notice the difference, show them what the Bible says. Praying for you. Diana L | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 10981 Registered: 12-2003 |
Cordurb, I've also been thinking about your situation. I asked Richard what he would do if he had a situation like this...and his response was the same I had thought of. Here's what he said, "I'd say, 'You have to respect my wishes in the rearing of the children as well. Since your stated goal is to teach only the Bible, let's just do that. Let's get rid of the books and just read the Bible to them." Of course, this sort of response could trigger a reaction, but since she claims the Bible is her only guide, I'd hold her to that. You know the truth. You might try pointing out the fact that these books say things the Bible doesn't even hint of...such as the "pre-creation" conversations and decisions...and don't allow the rationalizing that says, "We have to make this understandable to children" to overcome "Just go by the Bible." The "humanness" of the Adventist "gods" Byers portrays is what struck me, also. But as Jeremy says, these narratives are derived straight from EGW. These are her ideas. People argue that Adventism is fully trinitarian. I say, these stories demonstrate that the way Adventist children are taught about God builds a mental framework inside them that is false. They are not taught a sovereign God who paid for their sin. They are taught a warm, fuzzy "god" who is just like them. Unless he/she is "converted" from a Christian church and has met Jesus before becoming Adventist, there's no way for an Adventist who grows up in the church to have any way to perceive God as the sovereign, all-powerful Being He really is. Adventists learn God is made up of three people with the same concerns--but not the same "essence". They are taught to "see" God the Father and God the Son as having physical bodies. They are taught to understand God as needing them, not as themselves needing God. They think of "needing God" as a requirement for knowing what He is like and as a helper in their own obedience. They are not taught that God is a God of justice who has wrath against evil. God is, like Martinc said so insightfully, "Mommy". Colleen | ||
| Cordurb Registered user Username: Cordurb Post Number: 65 Registered: 4-2009 |
Jeremy, I agree totally, yet it is a delicate balance. Not sure if you are a father, but I believe it is a lot better for me to be around 100% of the time and pray over my kids and read the Word to them than to lay down and iron fist and have my wife leave. Seems my Adventist wife doesn't subscribe to me being the spiritual head of the house since it does not line up with her theology. Diana, every night I read a chapter to my kids before bed. We are in Romans now. My wife listens, and when my kids ask questions, I get to answer them. It is good.... | ||
| Sharon3 Registered user Username: Sharon3 Post Number: 3 Registered: 2-2010 |
I feel sick. I know the book Margie Asks Why so well. It is a Great Controversy story for children. I used to teach it to my Loma Linda Students. I may still have a copy in a stored box. I also have the Bedtime Stories and Bible Stories that I saved for my grandchildren. Such beautiful books the Bible Stories and My Bible Friends. I won't be using them. | ||
| Philharris Registered user Username: Philharris Post Number: 2011 Registered: 5-2007 |
Sharon3, Welcome! Loma Linda Students? Teach? Margie? I don't even know you but you have my attention. Weekend before last I was at the FAF Conference. Friday before things got started I went exploring, got a little lost going down in some canyon, crossed railroad tracks and ended up in an orange grove. I found out later I almost ended up in Loma Linda. When you are ready, tell us more about yourself. Fearless Phil | ||
| Sharon3 Registered user Username: Sharon3 Post Number: 5 Registered: 2-2010 |
Hi Phil, Thanks. I was at the FAF as well. I just posted a new thread. It tells a little about me. I'll tell more as I get into this. | ||
| Philharris Registered user Username: Philharris Post Number: 2014 Registered: 5-2007 |
Wow Sharon3, Did we meet? Fearless Phil | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 7971 Registered: 3-2004 |
Sharon3, I have not welcomed you to FAF. So, Welcome to FAF. When you are ready, please tell us of your journey with Jesus. Diana L | ||
| Gcfrankie Registered user Username: Gcfrankie Post Number: 674 Registered: 1-2007 |
Welcome Sharon 3. Cordurb, Your reading to your children from the bible is great news telling them this is the right way in getting to know their loving new friend Jesus through his own words and not someone elses. I am so happy your wife is sitting in and listening to you not only reading but also to the answers of the questions your children are asking you. I am praying for your wife that she will also meet the real Jesus instead of the phony portrait by EGW. Gail | ||
| Cordurb Registered user Username: Cordurb Post Number: 66 Registered: 4-2009 |
Thanks Gail. | ||
| Loneviking Registered user Username: Loneviking Post Number: 722 Registered: 7-2000 |
Yep, Margie Asks Why. Hi Sharon 3! If anybody wants to cure a non-SDA pastor of ever thinking that SDA theology is orthodox, just give 'em a copy of 'Margie Asks Why'. I'm hunting for one now to give to my pastor. | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 7983 Registered: 3-2004 |
I found two of the books on eBay. Diana L (Message edited by Flyinglady on February 27, 2010) | ||
| Loneviking Registered user Username: Loneviking Post Number: 724 Registered: 7-2000 |
Thanks Diana, I'll have to go look over there. | ||
| Nowisee Registered user Username: Nowisee Post Number: 292 Registered: 5-2009 |
Hi Sharon3!!! Welcome, welcome! You do know what went through my mind as I typed that?! (..ever welcome, blessed Sabbath day-ay..) Sorry, the old music tapes  ! Glad to have you here. | ||
| Sharon3 Registered user Username: Sharon3 Post Number: 15 Registered: 2-2010 |
Nowisee, I laughed. I lead it many times at the University Church 3 year olds SS. |
