| Author | Message | ||
| Jim02 Registered user Username: Jim02 Post Number: 919 Registered: 5-2007 |
I attempted to explore the question of salvation in a general sense in my previous inquiry and I realize it is a very broad field of theology. So I am attempting to narrow the focus if possible. I find it difficult to juggle to many parameters at one time. Romans 7: 14We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. 15I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. 16And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. 17As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. J: Is he saying this is his ungoing and continuing existance while he remains in the flesh, in this life? 18I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature.[c] For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. J: He seems to be saying in his continuing sate as a mortal. (Ongoing status) 19For what I do is not the good I want to do; no, the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing. J: Ongoing? 20Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it. J: I division of a soul trapped in the flesh. Two people in one? A merged state of fallen man and a renewed Spirit trapped together. 21So I find this law at work: When I want to do good, evil is right there with me. 22For in my inner being I delight in God's law; J: He desires better than he can offer? His humanity makes this impossible? 23but I see another law at work in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within my members. J: Is he trapped? Are we trapped in this condition? Does the grace of God allow for this? 24What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? 25Thanks be to God—through Jesus Christ our Lord! J: This is our hope. Christ. But following below is where I see this as conditional. These will be where the confusion is. ...25So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God's law, but in the sinful nature a slave to the law of sin. J: A Statement after the fact of the preceding statement in Christ. So is he saying the above realities are a constant with him? Romans 8: 1Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus,[a] 2because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death. J: Confusion point here: Is he claiming now, that the above is superceded by the the fact of being set free through the "law of the Spirit of life" ? Is he saying his condition has now changed? 3For what the law was powerless to do in that it was weakened by the sinful nature,[b] God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful man to be a sin offering.[c] And so he condemned sin in sinful man,[d] 4in order that the righteous requirements of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the sinful nature but according to the Spirit. J: Confusion again: At first it sounds as though he is saying that Christ met the requirements of the law in our place, but in the latter part of the same verse 4 he says "who do not live according to the sinful nature but according to the Spirit". the latter part sounds like works. Is it an assignment or a result of accepting Christ, or is he saying this is now the next step or works/choice/effort on our part? 5Those who live according to the sinful nature have their minds set on what that nature desires; J: Again, it appears he is going full circle and putting the onus right back on us. If this is true. . ...5 but those who live in accordance with the Spirit have their minds set on what the Spirit desires. J: Is this a decision works status. Something we must work at to maintain? 6The mind of sinful man[e] is death, but the mind controlled by the Spirit is life and peace; J: So it appears that we are being told to make every effort to be in the right state of mind. It makes us responsible for the outcome? 7the sinful mind[f] is hostile to God. It does not submit to God's law, nor can it do so. 8Those controlled by the sinful nature cannot please God. j: Seems obvious, but this does not sound like assurance to me. 9You, however, are controlled not by the sinful nature but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you. J: There is the "if" here. It is not a tangible measureable concept. It appears to be a subjective intersection. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ. J: If, measured by what? How we feel? Our works? 10But if Christ is in you, your body is dead because of sin, yet your spirit is alive because of righteousness. J: Again, what is he defining here as his scope? If, see the if? Alive because of whose righteousness, Christ's then ours? Christ's alone? Christ's in spite of our condition, works, progress, fruits? If????????? 11And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit, who lives in you. J: The if's derails everything because it is intangible to me. I can't work with if's. I want a solid foundation, not if's. How do I get past the if's. It is the if's that the SDA mentality focuses upon. It is where their argument comes from. Then there are these statements. How do they interlock with the above? The Apostle Paul is the same person writing these. 1Cor6:9-10 9Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders 10nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. J: Is this unconditional? A state of being at time of death? "if" then "will not inherit" Gal 5: 19The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God. J: "I warn you" "live like this" "Will not" Is this another "if" ? J: Don't misunderstand, I am not advocating any of these sins or lifestyles. I am addressing the state of the human condition. We sin to a lesser or greater degree. If you touch a power line even a little, it is damaging. Christ said our righteousness is rags. Eph 5: 5For of this you can be sure: No immoral, impure or greedy person—such a man is an idolater—has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.[a] 6Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of such things God's wrath comes on those who are disobedient. J: Measure this one. Are we cleaned up yet? Philp 3: 13Brothers, I do not consider myself yet to have taken hold of it. But one thing I do: Forgetting what is behind and straining toward what is ahead, J: This pretty much has to put the "if" off the table. He is going forward from where he is. 14I press on toward the goal to win the prize for which God has called me heavenward in Christ Jesus. J: Goal/win , This is works, ongoing continued effort. Is this the prerequiste if? How much effort is enough? 15All of us who are mature should take such a view of things. And if on some point you think differently, that too God will make clear to you. 16Only let us live up to what we have already attained. J: "live up to" Building upon our works I guess. A state of being? Living willfully and by choice in the aid of God's Spirit? You see , thsi is where the question of conditional salavtion is coming from. It appears to me claiming Christ's merits on our behalf is the beggining and continuing foundation. If our works is dead, we are dead and it appears we would also be lost. Jim | ||
| Loneviking Registered user Username: Loneviking Post Number: 713 Registered: 7-2000 |
Jim wrote: J: "live up to" Building upon our works I guess. A state of being? Living willfully and by choice in the aid of God's Spirit? You see , thsi is where the question of conditional salavtion is coming from. It appears to me claiming Christ's merits on our behalf is the beggining and continuing foundation. If our works is dead, we are dead and it appears we would also be lost. ------------------------------------ Hi Jim, and this is what I see as a pretty good summary of things. Claiming Christs' merits is the beginning, and the continuing foundation for a Christian. This is the touchstone for their existence and the point from which all else proceeds. Our 'works' don't merit us anything, but they do serve as indicators of our spiritual health. And no, I do not believe in 'once saved, always saved'. I believe that one has to continue abiding in Christ. That means time in the Word on a daily basis, time in prayer and yes, time at church. Lutherans believe that the church service is a divine encounter with Christ. Through the Eucharist, one is forgiven, strengthened, spiritually nourished and preserved in the one, true faith. We receive grace through the Eucharist and faith through hearing the word read and proclaimed at church. The reason I mention this is that some Christians feel that church is an option. But, as Colleens' pastor, Gary Inrig, is fond of saying 'there are no Lone Ranger christians'. ------------------------------------------------ Jim also wrote: J: I division of a soul trapped in the flesh. Two people in one? A merged state of fallen man and a renewed Spirit trapped together. ----Exactly. But don't worry, Hebrews 4:12 has a cure: 'for the word of God is quick and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart'. The word of God can reach and work within you in that condition. The idea, the teaching, that Gods' word is alive and actually has power is very different from what is taught in Adventism. Adventist do not believe that the words in the Bible are literally words from God. They say that God as an author is not represented in the Bible. Adventists say that as they view the Bible as thoughts from God that came to fallen man, and then fallen man put them into human language as best they could. By contrast, the orthodox Christian teaching is that of 'verbal, plenary, inerrent' inspiration. The words in the Bible are exactly what God intended to be there, all of them, and are without error'. So, it is vitally important to spend time daily with the word as 'faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of the Lord'; and 'the word of God that effectually worketh also in you that believe (1Thess. 2:13) | ||
| Loneviking Registered user Username: Loneviking Post Number: 714 Registered: 7-2000 |
Jim wrote: Romans 7: 14We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. 15I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. 16And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. 17As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. J: Is he saying this is his ungoing and continuing existance while he remains in the flesh, in this life? 18I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature.[c] For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. J: He seems to be saying in his continuing sate as a mortal. (Ongoing status) 19For what I do is not the good I want to do; no, the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing. J: Ongoing? ----------------------------------- Have you ever heard the term 'Law and Gospel'? It's the Lutheran approach to the whole issue. The law is spiritual, and impossible for us to attain too. The gospel, that forgiveness for not meeting the requirements of the law is freely available, is the good news. Jim wrote: Romans 8: 1Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus,[a] 2because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death. J: Confusion point here: Is he claiming now, that the above is superceded by the the fact of being set free through the "law of the Spirit of life" ? Is he saying his condition has now changed? ------------------------------ Yes, his condition has changed in that he is no longer condemned. Christ has paid the penalty that he owed, and he has passed from death to life; from judgement to sonship. Paul still struggles with the old man of sin; Paul can still fail to meet the requirements of the law; but as long as he continues to abide in Christ, he is not condemned. ----------------------------- Jim wrote: 3For what the law was powerless to do in that it was weakened by the sinful nature,[b] God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful man to be a sin offering.[c] And so he condemned sin in sinful man,[d] 4in order that the righteous requirements of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the sinful nature but according to the Spirit. J: Confusion again: At first it sounds as though he is saying that Christ met the requirements of the law in our place, but in the latter part of the same verse 4 he says "who do not live according to the sinful nature but according to the Spirit". the latter part sounds like works. Is it an assignment or a result of accepting Christ, or is he saying this is now the next step or works/choice/effort on our part? --------------- Remember, Jim, the law is like a mirror. It can show us what we should do, but there is no power there to help us to reach that point. Only the indwelling Holy Spirit has the power to transform. This 'dynamos'/Holy Spirit is able to prod us, show us when things are wrong, and be a faithful guide to us in our Christian walk. Walking by the Spirit is something you learn to do, a bit at a time, a day at a time. It is both an assignment and a result of accepting Christ. And don't get hung up on the whole issue of works. Stick to the basics commanded by God--time in the word; prayer; confession of sins; fellowship with fellow believers and the specifics of the Christian walk will fall into place. | ||
| Loneviking Registered user Username: Loneviking Post Number: 715 Registered: 7-2000 |
Jim wrote: And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ. J: If, measured by what? How we feel? Our works? -------------------------- 'For by their fruits ye shall know them'... Jim wrote: 10But if Christ is in you, your body is dead because of sin, yet your spirit is alive because of righteousness. J: Again, what is he defining here as his scope? If, see the if? Alive because of whose righteousness, Christ's then ours? Christ's alone? Christ's in spite of our condition, works, progress, fruits? If????????? -------------------------------- Alive because of Christs' righteousness alone--there is no other righteousness available to us! Jim wrote: J: The if's derails everything because it is intangible to me. I can't work with if's. I want a solid foundation, not if's. How do I get past the if's. -------------------------- How? Time, and experience walking with the Spirit. Remember also, that the 'ifs' are in the text as Paul is building an argument toward a logical conclusion. He is using an age old construct called the 'if/then'. 'If' this is true 'then' this is also true. But yes, learning to say 'we don't know' is important. There are so many paradoxes in the Bible---things that seem to be contradictory, but both are true. How can we have free will, and still have assurance of salvation? How can there be predestination and free will? How can God be fully human and fully God? Gods' peace to you Jim! Bill | ||
| Asurprise Registered user Username: Asurprise Post Number: 1175 Registered: 7-2007 |
Over and over again, the apostle Paul said that salvation is a "free gift" (one place is Romans 5:15). Jim; like Seventh-day Adventists, the Jewish people of Paul's day who hadn't accepted the Messiah, were zealous about "keeping" the law. They kept the Sabbath better than most any Seventh-day Adventist, even putting extra rules about it to make sure they kept it! Paul mentions them and their "righteousness" in Romans 10:3,4. verse 3: "For they being ignorant of GOD'S RIGHTEOUSNESS, and seeking to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted to the righteousness of God." verse 4: "For Christ IS THE END OF THE LAW for righteousness to everyone who believes." So Jim; based on these verses, are we as Christians evaluated on what WE DO or WHAT CHRIST HAS DONE? (I'd also like to point out 2nd Corinthians 3:7,8: "But if the ministry of death, written and engraved on stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of the glory of his countenance, which glory was passing away, how will the ministry of the Spirit not be more glorious?") It's not that we live by "the aid of Christ's Spirit." It's whether we HAVE Christ's Spirit or not. Because as Isaiah 64:6 says, "our righteousnesses are like filthy rags." The Bible wouldn't say that if there wasn't any way of knowing whether or not we have Christ's Spirit. All "religions" have to-do and to-don't lists. Islam teaches that if your "good" works outweigh your "bad" ones, [or if you kill yourself blowing up an infidel], you'll go to Heaven. SDAism teaches that if you're making progress toward Heaven (that's the way I've understood it), then you'll make it. I think Ellen White said something about "the trend of the life." Mormonism teaches: "...that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do." 2 Nephi 25:23 in "The Book of Mormon". (I keep a copy to point out errors to a Mormon relative of mine. The trouble is; she's as entrenched in Mormonism as most of my other relatives are in SDAism.  ) | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 3150 Registered: 10-2004  |
Jim, you wrote:
If you keep reading, verses 15-16 say: "For you did not receive a spirit that makes you a slave again to fear, but you received the Spirit of sonship. And by him we cry, 'Abba, Father.' The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God's children." (Romans 8:15-16 NIV.) Jeremy | ||
| Jim02 Registered user Username: Jim02 Post Number: 920 Registered: 5-2007 |
The focus on the if's is not my intention. It is simply that , in order to lay down the if's and move towards the acceptance (faith in) of the if's being in place, I worry that it may be presumption on my part if after the fact I find that I ignored any accountable condition of if=then. EGW would write things that would strike deep into my decision process of never making asumptions when it comes to ignoring God's instructions. So then I find myself trying to understand the parameters of all the in between warnings and conditions that lay between the good news passages. Making them contrast with each other. Perhaps it is a mistake on my part, what I attempt to do in the effort to understand scripture is to establish rules of understanding on any given topic. That premise of , if this is true, then this is also true. If this rule applies here, then the same argument elsewhere must also be true, and if not why not? The problem with most theology is that the underlying premise (rule of logic) does not always carry true to other passages. An argument point used in one place which by it's precedent should apply equally elesewhere. Then there is the re-termed (spin) definitions, reinterpreted passages, this does not mean what it says etc... So I try to go to ground. Go to the base, starting all over. Foundational. Example Rule : All Scripture is profitable for ...... All scripture was not yet written. All scripture was not preserved. All Scripture was not defined or specified as to OT or not yet canonized NT. All scripture was not qualified as authentic. Thus to establish a premise of truth based upon this passage, then it must have been talking about OT scriptures. Yet to make this statement, then it too would have to be included for true to be true. The outsider will argue that this passage is circular reference. A closed loop. There are all kinds of global statements in the NT and OT. Yet the in between statements all over the Bible are qualifiers. Thus, to lay hold of a global statement means to accept it as undefined, assumed and to essentialy not regard the qualifiers in the practical sense. To live by The Spirit is undefinable. That is what I keep coming back to. This fact does not surprise me. I never purposed to define God. I simply attempted to understand what God wants me to know. In 6000 years, and hundreds of religious sects. WE collectively cannot figure it out. Spirituality is relational. I get that. Faith is subjective. Jim | ||
| Asurprise Registered user Username: Asurprise Post Number: 1180 Registered: 7-2007 |
Jim, you said that only the Old Testament was called scripture in that verse. The apostle Peter called the apostle Paul's writings scripture. Check this out: "...as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the scriptures." 2 Peter 3:16 Here Peter is definitely including Paul writings in with "the rest of the scriptures." Jim, you're trying to understand Christianity with your mind. It's impossible for anyone to understand scripture that way. You need to submit your mind to God and accept Jesus sacrifice in your behalf. Accept Him with your heart!!! God made salvation easy enough to understand so that a little child could be saved. Remember Phil Harris' testimony, where he said he was saved when he was six? | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 10941 Registered: 12-2003  |
Asurprise, you are right; we must submit our minds to the Lord Jesus and His word. There is no other way to "know" Him! He asks for all of us. We can't hold our minds at a distance, intellectually accepting a concept but refusing to be totally vulnerable to the promises of God and the tangible evidences of His faithfulness in history. Colleen | ||
| Philharris Registered user Username: Philharris Post Number: 1993 Registered: 5-2007  |
In reference to what Asurprise mentioned about my story: I was at the gravesite of my brother this afternoon in the St Helena Cemetery. There was a couple there that I had never met before and I had a chance to share how my brother is with Jesus and soon someday I will see him again. They were there to visit their son's grave site and thanked me for sharing. We were strangers to eachother but they seemed 'lifted' by hearing my story. Fearless Phil | ||
| Asurprise Registered user Username: Asurprise Post Number: 1183 Registered: 7-2007 |
Your brother was four years old when he accepted Jesus, isn't that right, Phil? | ||
| Jim02 Registered user Username: Jim02 Post Number: 921 Registered: 5-2007 |
It is not a matter of intentional resistance, (emotionally , intellectually or otherwise). It is in realizing the best I can do is to make educated guesses knowing that no matter which way I go, I will have doubts as to whether I am in error and walking into another mistake. If I was in error for over 30 years, will it take me another 30 years to discover I am in yet another error? A little child may be able to accept Jesus in faith , and I believe it to be genuine and salvational. But when we put away our childhood and grow up from Spiritual milk, we become responsible for discernment truth and understanding God's instructions. I trust in God for my salvation, but I remain tossed about in confusion at times because I cannot as yet lock onto key elements that continue to be in suspension between points of view. I won't go into tangents here on this string. I learn more by the day. Perhaps that is enough. Jim | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 10948 Registered: 12-2003 |
Once a person has repented of his sin and has trusted the Lord Jesus for salvation, Jim, it becomes that person's responsibility to believe God's word and His promises. Our rationalizing will kick in, because that's our natural response, but we have to submit our minds to the truth in God's word and choose to believe in and live by the words of Scripture, asking Jesus to give us peace in the place where we have a habit of compulsively doubting and rationalizing. We have to decide to stop mulling and instead live by God's word. We won't have all our questions answered; we have to choose to walk by faith and submit ourselves to His discipline and instruction. We choose to live by His word; we don't first understand it. Understanding becomes more complete after we risk ourselves for His sake. Colleen | ||
| Jim02 Registered user Username: Jim02 Post Number: 922 Registered: 5-2007 |
Are you saying one church is as good as another? (I know you are not, but that is what I am left with) Jim | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 6018 Registered: 9-2006  |
WoW! _______________________________________________________________________ So many former Adevntist has so embraced intellect and reason that they "think that in that they have eternal life." Ellen White set them up to reject the Holy Spirit. She warns in dire tones of the dangers of being deceived "by emotionalism." They are trained from infancy not to trust "feeling" and so they turn to reason as the only safe harbor. They have no idea that their intellect is no match for the mysteries of God. It is only by personal revelation thru Holy Spirit as we read the Word that we can comprehend ANY of His Word. After I received the baptism of the Holy Spirit I realized that I had never read the Bible before (even though I had been thru it cover to cover at least 5 times by then and could quote much of it). All of a sudden it came alive and was a new book. I'm aware that what we experience in the Spirit is not about emotionalism, however, I have never cried so much in my life as I have since He fills me. When my being is exploding with His presence, my capacity to express is overwhelmed and all I can do is weep. How I love that presence. But it scares and offends the Adventist's heart. They are afraid that it is Satan deceiving them. It's quite serious since that is what constitutes the sin that make them impossible to reach - calling the work of the Holy Spirit the work of the devil. Their fear of deception IS the deception. He is what they are lacking, but they are SO fearful of deception that they can't surrender. They still have not cast off the long, dark shadow of Ellen White, though they would vehemently deny that. Still, her words rule their relationships (really, lack thereof) with Holy Spirit. _________________________________________________ Now if you think this is just another River harangue, you have another think coming. Those are not my words. Those are the words of another former Adventist who has been Baptized by the Holy Spirit. (Meaning in former Adventist vernacular that the person has received the gift of speaking in tongues) not that that is the meaning of receiving the baptism, but that is as close as I have ever heard a former speak of it. Theologically incorrect and theologically misunderstood, but if that’s what we got too go on…. It is quite amazing how the vernacular of any and every one of the formers I know who are baptized in the Holy Spirit with the evidence of speaking in tongues changes with a giant leap into spiritual insight. The change is just amazing and they sound profoundly different that they did before they experienced this. The change is immediate and complete and upholds the scripture about receiving power after that the Holy Spirit has come upon you. Instantly the person begins speak the truth in power. Another thing that a former Adventist said is this: I understand that the charismatic world has a lot of mixture in it and that we have to have Spirit-given discernment - but you don't throw the baby out with the bath water. So discern already! It's not about the people. Because they used to be in the "remnant church" but were deceived, they are still looking for the "remnant church" and are vigilant about not being deceived again. _________________________________________________ The truth is that the former no longer need be isolated in the body in any church, having become part of the body. If they are isolated, they have isolated themselves from the Holy Spirit since God is impartial. Wow! I am continually amazed how 'former Adventist' sound more like warmed up leftover Adventist, than the new creatures God has made them into. River | ||
| Jrt Registered user Username: Jrt Post Number: 989 Registered: 10-2008 |
I am so thankful that when we accept Jesus Christ into our hearts He seals us with His Holy Spirit.
When we accept Christ - as above mentioned - hear the word of truth, the gospel of our salvation and believe - we are sealed with the promise of the Holy Spirit. Then look what happens ...
I am thankful that when I accepted Jesus and repented of my sin - the Holy Spirit came to reside in my heart. The Bible is a new book to me. I do disagree, brother though with these two statements. "It is quite amazing how the vernacular of any and every one of the formers I know who are baptized in the Holy Spirit with the evidence of speaking in tongues changes with a giant leap into spiritual insight." If you are inferring that one must speak in tongues for "greater" spiritual insight or that a person must speak in tongues as evidence of the baptism of the Holy Spirit to speak the truth with power - then I disagree. I do believe that there is a gift of tongues - mind you I do not deny that - and value that spiritual gift in the body of Christ. But I have seen the power of God and know people discern scripture by the work of the Holy Spirit without having to speak in tongues. This concept that one must speak in tongues to have "more" spiritual discernment or "more" spiritual "power" divides the body of Christ rather than drawing each other together for edification. I have seen the power of the Holy Spirit and Christ in those who do not speak in tongues - and I would hate to have any formers out there thinking that if they don't speak in tongues they can't discern the truth of scripture. Keri | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 6019 Registered: 9-2006 |
It is my own observation as too what happens to them, and the difference I see in them. Perhaps I shouldn't have given an observation, but at this point I don't know what I should keep to myself or share. So if you want to make a big deal, twist my words around to sound like crap and make me feel like a fool, I assure you, it will not work. 1. How do you know what it appears to me like unless I tell you. 2. How do you know what amazes me unless I tell you, are you a mind reader? You would hate to have formers out there thinking? I got news for you Keri, you don't control what goes on "out there" and neither do I. I think God is big enough to have thinking control. Now you go twisting my words all you want, just have at it, have a hayday with it. I will tell you head on that I resent that "If I am inferring,this or that. River | ||
| Jrt Registered user Username: Jrt Post Number: 991 Registered: 10-2008 |
Dear River, You are exactly right. You, nor I control what others think. And yes, God is big enough to have "thinking control". Maybe it is best that we both go to God in prayer at this point ... I am willing to work this out with you after we have both been in prayer ... Keri | ||
| Jackob Registered user Username: Jackob Post Number: 530 Registered: 7-2005 |
Jim, you said:
Let's see if what I'm going to say makes sense to you. Feel free to ask any questions for clarifications. You are right that the mentality of sda is focused on the "ifs." These "ifs" are the source of their arguments as you said against any possibility to have assurance of salvation, at least, to have some solid rock assurance, not dependent on man's ability to persevere in sanctification. And such places as Romans 8 are their favorites because the language of "ifs" is indeed present. And as long as those "ifs" are in the Bible, they must be taken into account when somebody is going to trust in Christ for his eternal life. I agree with you that they can't be ignored, like the adventists are doing with the texts speaking about perfect assurance of salvation, like "I'll never cast out" (the sinner), etc. Somehow just ignoring them is to repeat their practice in ignoring the texts that clearly speaks of believer's solid status before God. I was also perplexed by the "ifs" from Romans 8, and I benefited from a book written by John Owen, perhaps the most difficult to read puritan, from his book "Mortification of Sin", in which he starts with a commentary of one of the most important "ifs" from Romans 8, namely verse 13 " For if you live according to the flesh you will die, but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live." Romans 8:13 At the first glance, the impression is that eternal life is uncertain, it depends on man's work of putting to death the deeds of the body, or what is technically called "mortification of indwelling sin." If this condition is met, if the believer succeeds in mortifying his sin, he will live the eternal life, if he fails, he will day. A cloud of uncertainty hangs over any believer's head. But this uncertainty will contradict Romans 8:1, where the believer is put beyond any possibility of death and condemnation, he is justified already once and for all, not temporary: "There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus." Now, today, he may be certain that he will not die, he will live. But, if these things are so, what that "if" means? Rather than uncertainty, "if" refers to the certain relationship between two elements: mortification and life. And this is an approach that doesn't put in jeopardy the certainty of the salvation in which the believer can rejoice. I admit that Owen is hard to read, but it's worth hearing him in his own words. Since you are asking a lot of questions and are working hard your mind in order to understand, I hope you will not mind the arduous style of Owen. Remember that what he said about the "if" of Romans 8:13 applies as strongly to the other "ifs" found in this chapter, because at no moment the apostle Paul is putting in jeopardy the full and perfect assurance of the believer. Here is Owen about Romans 8:13:
Hope it helps. Gabriel | ||
| Asurprise Registered user Username: Asurprise Post Number: 1189 Registered: 7-2007 |
River, it didn't sound like JRT was trying to put you down or anything. I think she was simply trying to gently disagree on a thing or two, so don't go getting your feelings hurt and biting back. Jim, how perfect is perfect?? The Bible says our "righteousness" is like filthy rags, so what can we do to recommend us to God? Jesus died for the sins of the whole world; past, present and future. How many of yours and my sins were future when He died? All of them. There will be only two groups of people in the world - those who have accepted Jesus' atonement and those who have not. It isn't how much we know. It's whether we accept Jesus' sacrifice for ourselves or not. Satan has a lot of religions out there to deceive people into not accepting Jesus' sacrifice. Seventh-day Adventism and Roman Catholicism say "yes it's a free gift, but if you don't do this and that, you won't be saved." (They just undid the "free gift" heart of the gospel.) Islam says, "if your good deeds outweigh your bad deeds, you'll go to Heaven." The trouble with that is: first, nobody has any good deeds and second, one bad deed without Jesus' atonement would be enough to keep a person out of Heaven. A person has to be as good as God to get into Heaven. So it's all or nothing. It's either we depend entirely on Jesus' righteousness and sacrifice on our behalf or we're lost. We can't even partly be good. Jim, you said, quote: "But when we put away our childhood and grow up from Spiritual milk, we become responsible for discernment truth and understanding God's instructions." Jim; how can we be even partially responsible for our spiritual understanding when God is our teacher? Jesus said we would be taught by God. God isn't like a math teacher, who gives a lecture and draws out some mathematical problems on the chalkboard and then expects us to pass the exam. God doesn't work that way. He gives us the answers in the way we can understand them and at the right times. |
