| Author |
Message |
Raven
Registered user
Username: Raven
Post Number: 1107
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, February 18, 2010 - 3:29 pm: |     |
Thanks for the explanation, Loneviking - glad to know Jesus and Lucifer do not have identical names! |
Asurprise
Registered user
Username: Asurprise
Post Number: 1191
Registered: 7-2007
| | Posted on Friday, February 19, 2010 - 1:56 pm: | |
Helovesme2; I've heard that anyone can put information into Wikipedia. If that's the case, then it wouldn't be accurate at all... |
Nowisee
Registered user
Username: Nowisee
Post Number: 277
Registered: 5-2009
| | Posted on Friday, February 19, 2010 - 3:24 pm: | |
I was angered and saddened (but not surprised, either) to see in print William J. denying the name of Christ (he prefers not to be called 'Christian'). Also in this article he says Allah is the same God as the God of the Bible. I'm no expert on 'Allah', but that's not true, is it?
As JRT says, this is not going to stop God's redemption--He is sovereign and all powerful!
Yoo hoo! Any SDAs out there that are still asleep after reading this article? Wake up!!!! |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 10956
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Friday, February 19, 2010 - 4:02 pm: | |
Nowisee, you are so right. From the perspective of having been Adventist, Johnsson's article is shocking. Of course, it appears that Adventism has been slowly introducing a sympathy for Islam into the "environment" over the past few years, but this article clearly articulates some changes in the way Adventists were taught to think.
For one thing, we were clearly taught that we were Christians, carrying on the tradition of the Reformation begun (but not completed) by Martin Luther. Johnsson is actually telling the world church that being known as Christian is a disadvantage in some sectors. "Own your Adventism" seems to be the underlying message...and Adventism has more in common with non-Christians than Christians...
From the outside looking in, Johnsson's article might not seem quite as shocking because the "outsider" may never have known how rigorously the laypeople have been taught that they are True Christians.
Colleen |
Cordurb
Registered user
Username: Cordurb
Post Number: 63
Registered: 4-2009
| | Posted on Saturday, February 20, 2010 - 4:00 am: | |
Nowisee,
no, Allah and God are not the same. Allah has many names. Two of which are The Great Deceiver and Beelezebub. Those aren't my name, but rather names Muslims give Allah. I think we know who those titles belong to. |
Jackob
Registered user
Username: Jackob
Post Number: 532
Registered: 7-2005
| | Posted on Saturday, February 20, 2010 - 4:22 am: | |
Colleen, you said
quote:For one thing, we were clearly taught that we were Christians, carrying on the tradition of the Reformation begun (but not completed) by Martin Luther. Johnsson is actually telling the world church that being known as Christian is a disadvantage in some sectors. "Own your Adventism" seems to be the underlying message...and Adventism has more in common with non-Christians than Christians...
Johnsson is building on the assumption that adventists are completing the reformation. He explicitly mentions this in the article:
quote:We understand our message to be not a new one but a return to the teachings of the Bible. We are completing the partially realized reformation begun by Luther, Calvin, and the other stalwarts of yesteryear. Muslims also consider themselves to be part of a work of reformation.
There is a common image of being reformers, of going back in the history to the very roots of faith, eventually to Abraham who's claimed by both muslims and christians (and jews) as their spiritual father. This common assumption of being b{the true believers} in contrast with Christianity as a whole which is seen by {both} muslims and adventists as apostate is reinforced by these interactions.
What adventists gain from these conversation is a reinforcement of their basic and loved belief that they are the true believers, not only christians, but the only true christians, who hold to the purity of faith. And this is a confirmation from a vision, another element that strikes at the heart of adventist image: a direct pipeline to God who confirms what even christians aren't able to come with grips -- adventists are not only christians, they are the remnant.
Notice the high importance Johnsson gives to the visions. He says
quote:Then came the moment I had been waiting for. Sir,I asked,;is it true that you received a vision about Seventh-day Adventists?
Not one, but three, he replied. All three had the same message: Seventh-day Adventists are the true People of the Book [a term from the Koran, designating followers of Allah who are not Muslims]. Adventists already are God's people, so do not try to convert them. Instead, work with them.
What many people miss in this account is the fact that the death of their living prophet, Ellen White, brought a crisis that can't be resolved without a new manifestation of the prophetic gift. And these visions coming from a muslim leader are exactly what they are looking for: they bring them back, at least partially, in the good old days, when a true living prophet gave them messages that confirmed their unique status.
In conclusion, the most profound and sensible belief of adventism is touched. I wonder if God is working through these situations and accomplish what many formers adventists strive to succeed: to persuade the christian church that the SDA church belongs in another category, it's not a christian church. As Jeremy said on another forum, if they don't want to be called christians, fine. Why should we not rejoice because of this turn?
Nevertheless I'm afraid that this is just a temporary situation and after some fireworks all these things will be forgotten and the leaders will be back in working hard for their image as true christians.
Gabriel |
River
Registered user
Username: River
Post Number: 6029
Registered: 9-2006
| | Posted on Saturday, February 20, 2010 - 6:01 am: | |
ASurprise says: I wouldn't be surprised if Satan in the last days, brings together ALL the false religions under one "roof" - Islam, Roman Catholic, Mormon, SDA, J.Witness, etc. etc. etc. (end quote)
Asurprise, now you are getting the bigger picture I think.
I think the anti-Christ, which of course is false religions and anti-Christ in nature, very religious, and very dangerous, will be identified by the world as true Christians,while the true Christians will be identified as rebels,and anti-social psychopaths who would stop at nothing to break the peace.
1John 5:6-11 teaches us about the three witnesses, the Spirit, the water, and the blood and in 19 he says John I 5:19 We know that we are of God, and the whole world lies under the sway of the wicked one.
How do we know we are of God? By the three witnesses in out heart, the Spirit, the water and the blood applied.
The false will align with the world and appear to be great humanitarians, welcoming all beliefs as brothers, and the true Cristian, the ones who cling to the Bible as it is written will be outcasts as rebels.It is simple, they'll proof text and quote the Bible back to us just as Satan did Jesus.
Frankly Asurprise, I don't think you are in for much of a surprise at the sound of you.
Maybe we ought to change your name from Asurprise to Igotyournumber. 
River |
Asurprise
Registered user
Username: Asurprise
Post Number: 1194
Registered: 7-2007
| | Posted on Saturday, February 20, 2010 - 1:02 pm: | |
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Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 10960
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, February 20, 2010 - 6:37 pm: | |
Gabriel, great post. Very good points. I actually do think, though, that Adventism is intentionally chipping away at the members' automatic sense that Muslims are part of the "apostates". There really does seem to be an intentional effort to "normalize" Islam to the laity.
Has anyone seen Jon Paulien's talk on the "remnant" which he gave at the 2008 "Love Of The Ages" convocation in the Ohio Conference? It was a celebration of the 150th anniversary of The Great Controversy vision; several well-known SDAs spoke at it: Jan Paulsen, Smuts VanRooyen, Jon Paulien, etc.
I don't know that these talks are online, but the videos are available through the Ohio Conference.
There's more to this whole "thing" than just this Johnsson article...
Colleen
(Message edited by Colleentinker on February 20, 2010) |
Nowisee
Registered user
Username: Nowisee
Post Number: 280
Registered: 5-2009
| | Posted on Saturday, February 20, 2010 - 7:34 pm: | |
Thanks, Cordurb--I was quite sure Allah is not the Biblical God, but hadn't researched it yet. This whole trend is pretty disturbing--the guy that wrote the 'worshiping the Sabbath' thing--it would be nice if he knew about the ideas stated in this article--wonder if it would shake him up a little. I would think Christians would find the article upsetting... |
Philharris
Registered user
Username: Philharris
Post Number: 2000
Registered: 5-2007
| | Posted on Saturday, February 20, 2010 - 8:04 pm: | |
Since Adventist leaders appear to be admitting their god and Islam's god are one and the same, we must conclude that their god is not our God of the Bible.
May we have enough spiritual insight to reach the logical conclusion(s).
Fearless Phil |
Flyinglady
Registered user
Username: Flyinglady
Post Number: 7952
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, February 20, 2010 - 8:58 pm: | |
This reminds me of the sermon I heard at my church this summer - A Fan or a Follower. I wrote on here some where that as an sda I never learned enough about God, as an sda, to be a fan, much less a follower. The God I learned about when I read the NT, in 2004, is a much different God then the one I learned of as an sda. That tells me that their god could be anything/one else. Even the same as Allah. That is sad. Our awesome God loves all of them. This in no way means He is saving all of them.
Diana L |
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