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| Asetechrail Registered user Username: Asetechrail Post Number: 15 Registered: 1-2010 |
I feel that we must allow the Holy Spirit to lead us into all truth. Once saved always saved? Here is an argument the other way. 26 Once Saved -- Always Saved Is this a true statement in all circumstances? Is it a contract that is irreversible? Can it be defended from Scripture alone? What does the Bible say about them? Scriptural presentation by Jack Gent NIV If unlisted. Emphasis Supplied. 1998 -- All rights reserved. Feel free to download this booklet to print copies to share with others. (Do give proper credit, though, to the author.) Once Saved -- Always Saved "Once saved, always saved." Is this a true saying under all circumstances? Is it a contract that is irreversible? To anyone who places complete assurance in this slogan I would like to present a few bothersome passages of Scripture as to why it may not be trustworthy. Eze. 33:12-19 -- Therefore, son of man, say to your countrymen, The righteousness of the righteous man will not save him when he disobeys, and the wickedness of the wicked man will not cause him to fall when he turns from it. The righteous man, if he sins, will not be allowed to live because of his former righteousness. If I tell the righteous man that he will surely live, but then he trusts in his righteousness and does evil, none of the righteous things he has done will be remembered; he will die for the evil he has done. And if I say to the wicked man, You will surely die, but he then turns away from his sins and does what is just and right -- if he gives back what he took in pledge for a loan, returns what he has stolen, follows the decrees that give life, and does no evil, he will surely live; he will not die. None of the sins he has committed will be remembered against him; he will surely live. Yet your countrymen say, "The way of the Lord is not just." But it is their way that is not just. If a righteous man turns from his righteousness and does evil, he will die for it. And if a wicked man turns away from his wickedness and does what is just and right, he will live by doing so. I believe this is presented so clearly that no one can fail to understand how God views this question. Even in that Old Testament time there was an apparent controversy with the Israelites concerning God's justice in this matter. Let us turn to the New Testament era to see if God now views this matter in an entirely different way. I believe Peter is speaking of those who have become born again, but reverted back to their previous practices on much the same basis as our slogan under consideration might allow. 2 Peter 2:17-21 -- These men are springs without water and mists driven by a storm. Black darkness is reserved for them. For they mouth empty, boastful words and, by appealing to the lustful desires of sinful human nature, they entice people who are just escaping from those who live in error. They promise them freedom while they themselves are slaves of depravity -- for a man is a slave to whatever has mastered him. If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning. It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to know it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them. These men had previously been born again and have afterward used the Christian's freedom as an excuse to return to their previous sinful habits. Not only that but they are enticing people who are in the process of escaping from their previous sinful practices into believing that they can have the freedom of both worlds. This passage not only denies that this is possible but in fact states they would end up worse off than if they had never accepted Christ in the first place. We need to see what happens to the born again Christian when he accepts Christ as his Savior: Eph. 1: 13,14 -- Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession -- to the praise of his glory. When we are born again we are baptized into Christ. Our sins are all washed away and Christ places the Holy Spirit in us as a deposit guaranteeing our future inheritance. The Holy Spirit takes charge of our lives and leads us in our daily walk with Christ with our permission. Our inheritance comes when Christ returns to this earth and welcomes all born again Christians into the heavenly family. During our pilgrimage on this earth, following our conversion, it is important for us to seek the guidance of the Holy Spirit on a continual basis. While the moral principles of the ten commandments are no longer law that has charge of us, it is still a sin to break these basic principles. If we should break them unintentionally we can ask the Holy Spirit to forgive us and He will do so. This is the sin that does not lead to death because with our lives under the control of the Spirit we are not under the law. If we should sin deliberately and repeatedly, this is evidence that the Holy Spirit is no longer in charge of our life since we have chosen a different master to be a slave to. This willful sinning against the Holy Spirit is the unpardonable sin. Heb. 10:26-29 -- If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God. Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. How much more severely do you think a man deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God under foot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified him, and who has insulted the Spirit of Grace? This is speaking of the born again Christian who has been sanctified by the blood of the covenant (Christ's blood) and has insulted the Spirit of Grace by returning to his previous sinful practices. Matt. 12:31,32 -- And so I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven. Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven either in this age or the age to come. Why is the sinning against the Holy Spirit the unpardonable sin? From the previous text we can see that this can only happen to the born again Christians. When we accept Christ as our Savior we confess our sins and are baptized into Christ. All our sins are washed away and we are given a clean slate. Christ places the Holy Spirit in our lives as His personal representative to guide us in our daily walk with Him. The Holy Spirit replaces the law which had been in charge of God's children prior to the cross. Now those who are led by the Spirit (the born again Christian) are not under the law. It is still a sin to break these moral principles contained in the law. If we break them unintentionally and ask for forgiveness for doing so, we are freely forgiven as this type of sin does not bring condemnation nor lead to death if we remain in Christ. Rom. 8:1 -- Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death. This freedom from the condemnation of the law applies only to the born again Christian (those in Christ). This means that this born again Christian does not come under condemnation when he sins unintentionally. This type of sin does not lead to death but is freely forgiven and the Holy Spirit impresses us to turn from this type of behavior. When we sin deliberately and repeatedly, it is an entirely different matter. This we can only do when we turn our back to the Holy Spirit. This also is turning our back to the finished work of Christ which has secured our salvation. It means we have chosen a different master to become a slave to. We have disowned the Holy Spirit which has brought us righteousness and turned to being slaves of sin which brings us death. The law now is again in charge of us; therefore, we will be judged by the law, and Christ is no longer in our life. Only in Christ are we free of the condemnation of the law. When, by our own choosing, we deliberately return to sinning, we have rejected Christ and He will in turn reject us. 1 John 5:16-20 -- If anyone sees his brother commit a sin that does not lead to death, he should pray to God and God will give him life. I refer to those whose sin does not lead to death (only refers to the born again Christian). There is a sin that leads to death. I am not saying that he should pray about that. (That's because deliberate sinning is the unpardonable sinning against the Holy Spirit) All wrong doing is sin, and there is sin that does not lead to death. We know that anyone born of God does not continue to sin; the one that was born of God (Christ) keeps him safe, and the evil one cannot harm him. We know that we are children of God, and that the whole world is under the control of the evil one. We know also that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding, so that we may know him who is true -- even in his Son Jesus Christ. He is the true God and eternal life. Over 600 years before Christ, God gave through Jeremiah a preview of His covenant that would replace the one He gave at Sinai. Jer. 31:3l-33 -- "The time is coming," declares the Lord, "when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah. It will not be like the covenant I made with their forefathers when I took them by the hand to lead them out of Egypt, because they broke my covenant, though I was a husband to them," declares the Lord. "This is the covenant I will make with the house of Israel after that time," declares the Lord. "I will put my law in their minds and write it on their hearts. I will be their God, and they will be my people." The covenant God gave the Israelites at Sinai was written on two tablets of stone with God's finger. Transgression of any of these commandments was breaking the law and condemned the transgressor to the death penalty. At the cross this covenant came to an end to all who accepted Christ. Only in Christ is there now no condemnation of the law to the one who violates one of its moral precepts unintentionally. These moral precepts of the law are now placed in our minds and written on our hearts as the basic principles of the world. It becomes our conscious and the Holy Spirit sensitizes our conscious to the sin of violating these precepts. We, being human, will continue to sin unintentionally and will immediately realize our sorrow for sinning and will ask the Holy Spirit for forgiveness, which He will freely give. This will help us to avoid making the same mistake again and we will continue to grow in our spiritual walk with Christ -- being led by the Holy Spirit. 1 John 1:5,6 -- But if anyone obeys his word, God's love is truly made complete in him. This is how we know we are in Him: Whoever claims to live in him must walk as Jesus did. As long as we maintain this ongoing relationship with the Holy Spirit we can be fully aware that our salvation is assured. We should also remember that there is an abundance of evidence that a continuing walk in Christ is the essential pillar of that assurance. If, in the face of this evidence, we say we are saved in spite of whatever we may do; we are walking on the broad road of presumption which does not lead to eternal life. 1 John 3:4-10 -- Everyone who sins breaks the law; in fact, sin is lawlessness. But you know he appeared so that he might take away our sins, and in him is no sin. No one who lives in him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him. Dear children, do not let anyone lead you astray. He who does what is right is righteous, just as he is righteous. He who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of Man appeared was to destroy the devil's work. No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God. This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not a child of God; nor is anyone who does not love his brother. I believe from the above we can see that continuing in deliberate sin, after we have been saved, is unacceptable. When we see what Christ went through to purchase our salvation, we should want to do everything we can to please Him. If the Holy Spirit remains in charge of our life, the very thought of sin should be progressively more repulsive to us. Rom. 6:15-22 -- What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? By no means! Don't you know that when you offer yourselves to someone to obey him as slaves, you are slaves to the one whom you obey -- whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience which leads to righteousness... When you were slaves to sin, you were free from the control of righteousness. What benefit did you reap at that time from the things you are now ashamed of? Those things result in death! But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves to God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life. If the Holy Spirit is directing our life, which is the case in every born again Christian, then we are slaves to obedience -- obedience to the leading of the Holy Spirit. If we continue to sin deliberately we become slaves to sin which leads to death. This is regardless of our previous born again experience. If we persist in sinning, the Holy Spirit will turn us over to our new master to become his slave -- the devil. Heb. 6:4-6 -- It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God, and the powers of the coming age, if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace. This is another illustration of the unpardonable sin. This is the sin that only the born again Christian can be guilty of because only he has committed his life to Christ and has been cleansed by His blood. The Holy Spirit has been placed in him as Christ's personal representative to guide him in his walk with Christ. If he truly believes that "once saved -- always saved" is true, then he would consider it a small thing for him to drift back into his previous life of sin. He becomes the slave to sin as the Holy Spirit abandons him when he chooses a different master to be a slave to. James 5:19 -- My brothers, if one of you should wander from the truth and someone should bring him back, remember this: whoever turns a sinner from the error of his ways will save him from death and cover over a multitude of sins. This is speaking of a Christian who has wandered from the truth. He is backslidden. The one who brings him back to the truth has saved him from death. If he hadn't been brought back he would have died a sinner. Apparently James didn't understand this concept of once saved -- always saved. Paul, in his second letter to Timothy, made a timely quote for our study: 2 Tim. 2:10-12 -- Therefore I endure everything for the sake of the elect, that they too may obtain salvation that is in Christ Jesus, with eternal glory. Here is a trustworthy saying: If we died with him, we will also live with him; if we endure, we will also reign with him. If we disown him, he will also disown us; if we are faithless, he will remain faithful, for he cannot disown himself. "If we disown him, he will also disown us." Is this validating the words of God to Ezekiel in the first prophecy in our study? God told Ezekiel's countrymen that if the righteous man turns from his righteousness and does evil, he will die for the evil he has done. Here we have the same thing expressed in a different way. Also if we turn from being slaves to obedience to the Holy Spirit -- which leads to righteousness, then we become slaves of sin which leads to death. Heb. 3:12-14 -- See to it, brothers, that none of you has a sinful, unbelieving heart that turns away from the living God. But encourage one another daily as long as it is called Today, so that none of you may be hardened by sins' deceitfulness. We have come to share in Christ if we hold firmly till the end the confidence we had at first. Another condition of maintaining our born again relationship, our salvation is absolutely guaranteed if we maintain our relationship with the Holy Spirit in His leading. We continue to share in Christ if we hold firmly till the end the confidence we had at first. Notice Paul's explanation to a group of Gentile Christians how through unbelief many of literal Israel have been removed from the cultivated olive tree and Gentile branches have been grafted in to take their place: Rom. 11:17-22 -- If some of the branches have been broken off and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root, do not boast over those branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you. You will say then, "Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in." Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid. For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either. Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness, otherwise, you also will be cut off. I believe we can see from this the importance of maintaining this vital relationship with the Holy Spirit to maintain our standing with Christ. And why would we not want it to be this way anyway? Col. 1:22,23 -- But now he has reconciled you by Christ's physical body through death, without blemish and free from accusation -- if you continue in your faith, established and firm, not moved from the hope held out in the gospel. This is the gospel that has been proclaimed to every creature under heaven, and of which I, Paul, have become a servant. Paul probably wrote more about our relationship to the gospel than any of the Bible writers. It is obvious that he took his relationship seriously and stresses the importance for us to do the same. 1 Cor. 9:24-27 (Revised English Bible) -- At the games, as you know, all the runners take part, though only one wins the prize. You also must run to win. Every athlete goes into strict training. They do it to win a fading garland; we, to win a garland that never fades. For my part, I am no aimless runner. I am not a boxer who beats the air. I do not spare my body, but I bring it under strict control for fear that after preaching to others, I should find myself disqualified. Paul likened his preparation for his spiritual activities like an Olympic athlete. The difference was that only one could win the prize at the athletic games, whereas all may win the prize offered by the gospel. He brought his body under strict control so that it was not used to promote sin. Wouldn't that go a long way toward solving most of our problems? This was for fear that otherwise, after preaching to others, he might find himself disqualified. Paul knew he had no intention of letting that happen to him, but he knew it could happen if he should become careless and drift back into the sinful life he had prior to his conversion. It shows he was completely unacquainted with once saved -- always saved. We know that, as he approached the end of his life's work, he had full confidence in his eternal reward -- and the reasons for this confidence. 2 Tim. 4:7,8 -- I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith. Now there is in store for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will award to me on that day -- and not only to me, but also to all who have longed for his appearing. He knew that he had kept the faith, he had followed faithfully the leading of the Holy Spirit in his life. He wanted us to know that anyone who would do the same would be assured of the same reward. | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 6003 Registered: 9-2006  |
Basically its a teaching of fear and set up to keep a Christian in fearful torment all his days. It is nowhere near a picture of trust and belief, because it puts the burden on us to be saved. A person who come out of Adventism and ends up with that kind of teaching might as well just stayed where he was. I am very familiar with this teaching, because I am a Pentecostal, and have been for 38 years. It leaves out much of the gospel and Gods precious promises. I assures hell for the weak and fear for the strong. If all I have to offer is that, I pray God takes me off of this forum today without waiting a second. I know its not mine to offer these people, but I can encourage them in the Lord. I know I mess up at times, say things I shouldn't but I pray I never mess up that bad, and if I do I pray they excommunicate me immediately. I may be wrong in what I have just said, but I cannot stand by and just let it go. But I thank you for having me look into the face of fear one more time, but if you ever do it again, I might just hang you from a lamp post some where. River | ||
| Jonvil Registered user Username: Jonvil Post Number: 338 Registered: 4-2007 |
HORRIBLE!! It's that nasty "if it's going to be, it's ALL up to me" I hear the Devil whispering: 'Did God really mean it when He promised that the Holy Spirit would regenerate our heart?', and 'Did God really mean it when He said that NOTHING could take us from His hand?'. John | ||
| Jim02 Registered user Username: Jim02 Post Number: 917 Registered: 5-2007 |
Asetechrail I read the preceding presentation by Jack Gent. I I agree with River that this places us in a fear position and back to placing our hope upon or grit and determination to hold onto God' Holy Spirit no matter what. Inference being that grieving God's Spirit is how we are lost among other points. Paul said, "who will rescue me from this body of death"? Paul saw his own utter frustration. I look not at only my own life , but others I know and have known. Some of the most foolsih acting people, mean at times , hateful, nonsensical or whatever the flaw. They have that fear and that bewilderment. They know they are sinning and they are lost in it, as not seeing a way out, not seeing a way to stay out of constant conflict or turmmoil and so very often, people give up altogether because they come to belive, tehy are not chosen, tehy cannot qualify and they have no strength of their own to mortify the flesh in a vain attempt to change the heart. They are undone and fear does not show them the way. Fear can point out a need or a danger. Other than a intuitive reaction that burns out as strength wains, fear does not give us a way up or a way out. If not for hope and mercy I would have given up long ago. If not for acceptance of who I am and where I am, I have no path to better days or a renewed heart. Look at people who suffer from addictive substances, entrenched fears, inferiority issues, illness, lack of family stability, fatherless, enviromental hell, lonliness or rejection. These people are so deep in hell, they cannot see any light at all. So this is the condition of mankind in general. So the question is , and yes , I have seen all the references that were given. I do not ignore them. I cannot ignore them, they are part of the whole picture of scripture. I wish I had teh balnce formatted in my own mind. My SDA instincts tell me that I cannot let go of the one and ignore the other. Nor do I propose to censure what you presented. It is in fact the other side of the coin on this question. The question continues. How are these merged? How safe are we? I have myself fought with despair and discouragements and I understand how circumstances can set us up for sin failures, backsliding and just plain emotional sabotage. Our walk in Christ must have traction and it must be a gift from God. Because frankly, I find I have only filthy rags. Jim | ||
| Skeeter Registered user Username: Skeeter Post Number: 515 Registered: 12-2007 |
Hmmmmmm. I dont know what to think... I have great admiration and respect for both of you River and Jonvil, Having said that, I must say that I didnt get those feelings that you did from reading that post at all. I dont know ... maybe the problem is me, but I thought the post made a lot of sense. He used passages from the Bible, and the parts explaining the Bible texts,, to me they seemed to explain without twisting the words of the Bible out of context. If I am wrong in this, please let me know where and how. Reading it did not make me feel angry or fearful, instead it gave me a sense of peace. God is loving and kind and He is NOT willing to loose any of us. And from the above post I personally did not get the feeling that "it is all up to me" not at all. Instead I think it shows very clearly that Jesus DOES have us firmly in His hand... But as a loving and just God, He will not FORCE us to stay in His care if we make the conscious choice to sin. I am not saying that sin can remove us from God, I know we are constantly sinning in one way or other, but I do think that if someone is making a conscious choice to sin and sinning diliberately and without feeling remourse for those sins, sinning over and over without feeling sorrow and without repentance...then we apparently dont have the Holy Spirit indwelling in us and that could lead to us loosing our salvation. (I think that's where the part comes in where he talks about us praying for those who are continuing living in sin,,, maybe they because of a lack of the HS in their lives are not even aware that they are in danger ?) If we sin and we are sorry for that sin and ask forgiveness then the Holy Spirit is working in our hearts and He will surely forgive us,,, but God did not make us robots, He made us with free will, with the ability to choose if we will follow Him or not. He will NOT let us go...and NOTHING CAN take us from His hand (as long as we are willing to stay.) But if we are to accept what the Bible says,,, then can we really pick and choose what we want to believe ? Can we only choose those passages that make us feel good and back up our own ideas of what we WANT "truth" to be ? That is the mistake that SDA's make. That is why they have the "proof texting". They pick and choose those things from the Bible that they feel support what they ALREADY believe. I have had enough of "proof texting" I want to know "TRUTH" as presented in the Bible. I am just speaking personally here, so please don't take offense or think I am in any way saying anyone on here who disagrees with me is wrong because I am NOT,, these are just my own thoughts and I may very well be wrong,,, but I feel that just because parts of the Bible may say things that I am uncomfortable with does not make it any less the truth. I feel I have so much to learn from Gods word and I want to keep my mind and heart open to learn those things I need to know and not just the things that make me feel all warm and fuzzy. I want to learn . I want to learn TRUTH! I believe the Bible is truth! So, please, if the person who wrote this article, booklet or whatever this came from... was wrong.. if he misquoted any of the Bible passages that he gave or twisted those passages out of context.. please let me know. Skeeter | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 3143 Registered: 10-2004  |
Skeeter, you can't just add that last clause to Jesus' own words. Don't you realize what the Bible says about adding to God's words? It is a serious offense. The passage does not say that. It says what it says. Period. You can't add an "except..." to Jesus words when He puts a period there and does not say that. Here is what the passage in John 10 actually says in the original Greek:
Jeremy | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 3144 Registered: 10-2004 |
I'm not going to read through all his garbage, but yes he is twisting those passages. Most of us on here have seen them all before, and dealt with them. We aren't ignoring them. But they must be read in context. We have discussed a lot of those passages on here before. You can probably find some of those discussions by using the "Search" link. Jeremy | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 3145 Registered: 10-2004 |
Just to give a quick example of how he is twisting those passages, take for example his usage of Hebrews 6 and Hebrews 10. Skeeter (and Asetechrail), I challenge you to read both of those chapters from start to finish, and you will see that they are actually saying the opposite (that you can't lose your salvation, not that you can). The problem is that most people don't keep reading after those verses to the end of the chapter. They are simply ripped out of context. These two examples should be enough to show you that Mr. Gent cannot be trusted to present passages in context, and accurately represent what they are actually teaching. Jeremy (Message edited by Jeremy on February 13, 2010) | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 3146 Registered: 10-2004 |
Also, the 1 Corinthians 9 passage cannot be talking about salvation. Salvation is not a "prize" or "reward"--it is a "free gift" (Romans 6:23)! (By the way, I notice that he quotes up to verse 22 of Romans 6, but not verse 23!!!) The passage in 1 Corinthians 9 is talking about the rewards we receive a the Bema seat (used in the Olympics) judgment. Being "disqualified" is equal to losing out on a reward/prize. But those who were disqualified for the prize in the Olympic games were still citizens of Rome! Likewise, Paul would still be a citizen of the kingdom of Heaven. He was only speaking of losing rewards. Jeremy (Message edited by Jeremy on February 13, 2010) | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 3147 Registered: 10-2004 |
By the way, these are all standard SDA "proof texts" that Mr. Gent is using. He simply did not move beyond this SDA heresy. Jeremy | ||
| Dennis Registered user Username: Dennis Post Number: 1874 Registered: 4-2000  |
An analogy of God's work in preservation may be seen in the image of a father holding onto his small child's hand as they walk together. In the Arminian and/or semi-Pelagian view the safety of the child rests in the strength of the child's grip on the father's hand. If the child lets go he will perish. In the Calvinist view the safety of the child rests in the strength of the father's grip on the child. If the child's grip fails, the father's grip holds firm. The arm of the Lord does not wax short. The assurance of our salvation, here and now, is vital to our spiritual lives. Without it our growth is retarded and we are assailed with crippling doubts. God calls us to make our election sure, to find the comfort and strength that God offers in assurance. No true believer ever loses his salvation. To be sure, Christians fall at times seriously and radically, but never fully and finally. We persevere, not because of our strength but because of God's grace that preserves us. Dennis Fischer | ||
| Asetechrail Registered user Username: Asetechrail Post Number: 16 Registered: 1-2010 |
So I come here and try to learn. Perhaps my mind is not made up. I present something I have read and and need to know what others think. Then this is what I get back. "But I thank you for having me look into the face of fear one more time, but if you ever do it again, I might just hang you from a lamp post some where." Well thank you River for that! You people here are not really trying to help anybody that way! Thanks again for nothing. Kent (asetechrail) The presentation was not mine. I really just wanted some clarification, one way or the other, about what was written in it. | ||
| Skeeter Registered user Username: Skeeter Post Number: 516 Registered: 12-2007 |
Jeremy, I did not add to Jesus words. They were MY words, I did not put them in quotes and was careful to put MY thoughts in ()and did not put certain things in "" marks because I knew they were not exact quotes. He will not let us go.. and nothing can take us from His hand was NOT a "quote" from Jesus. Please look carefully at the Biblical wording and at my wording and you will see that I was expressing my own thoughts and not attempting to add anything to what Jesus said. I apologize to you and to anyone else who may have thought that was my intent, because it was not. I agree fully with the passages you put down from John 10 .. but that still leaves the question... what do we do about all the quotes given from Eze. 33:12-19, 2 Peter 2:17-21, Heb 10:26-29, 1 John 1:5,6 , Rom. 6:15-22, 2 Tim 2:10-12, Rom 11:17-22, 1 Col 22,23 ? What do we do with those passages ? Toss them out because they may say things we dont want to hear ? Please notice while reading through those passages, there are several "if's" scattered in there... do we ignore those ? I am not saying your understanding is wrong,, I am just trying to figure it all out for myself. I do not feel safe in accepting some Bible passages and ignoring those that do not suit me. (and I am NOT saying any of YOU are doing that,, please dont misunderstand me on that) I am just saying as for MYSELF.. I feel the need to learn the truth. If that truth is something I feel comfortable with fine, if not, then that is MY problem and I need to pray for God to reveal to me HIS truth even if it is something I do not fully understand. I know that what ever way He has things planned for us is the best way, the most loving way and also will be the most just way. I trust Him COMPLETELY to see what is in my heart and to help me to (in His time) understand those things that I do not as of yet understand. If He leads you to help me in understanding, then please do so. But please do not accuse or condemn me because I am still questioning certain things that I do not understand. I am not trying to be critical of anyone on here. I truly love everyone here and I respesct each of your opinions and have learned so much from all of you. I guess if we all understood everything exactly the same way there wouldnt be much to discuss on here, would there ? I thought the purpose of this forum was to learn,, that is what I am trying to do, to learn and to give worship and Praise to our God and Savior Jesus Christ alongside fellow Christians of all faiths I have found here. I have never heard of the man whose atricle was posted here. I do not know what denomination (if any ) he is from and I really dont care. What I do care about is that he listed several Bible passages that I think should make us sit up and think and not toss them aside because they make us uncomfortable. Please dont condemn me if my understanding is different than yours. I am still learning and growing in my faith. As the saying goes "Please be patient, God isnt finished with me yet." (see, I do know when to put "" marks.) :-) Skeeter | ||
| Skeeter Registered user Username: Skeeter Post Number: 517 Registered: 12-2007 |
Jeremy, once I hit the post button I saw your other posts. Thank you for that. I will print it out and I will read those entire passages. Like I said, I have no idea who this man is or his intent. I just want to learn the truth and not just automatically accept those things that make me feel good and reject those things that make me uncomfortable. That is why I asked IF the man misquopted, or twisted things out of context to please let me know. Because I do want to know the truth. I just want to understand, to learn and to know the truth. Thank you Skeeter | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 3148 Registered: 10-2004 |
Skeeter, I understood that you were paraphrasing--I wasn't trying to say that you were adding words in quotes. What I meant was that we can't add an "exception clause"--with our own thoughts--to what Jesus said, when He didn't put an "unless..." or an "as long as..." in there. Adding our own thoughts in that way, actually changes what Jesus said. I am not trying to condemn you, I am just trying to point out some things as I see them. Jeremy | ||
| Jim02 Registered user Username: Jim02 Post Number: 918 Registered: 5-2007 |
Kent, I hope you did not take my comments as a rejection or censure. What you presented shows one side of the issue. I maintain that it is valid and has meaning in context. As a SDA, the focus tended to be upon works, ever increasing performance levels and no assurance of salvation. Certainly no practical sense of being at rest. I was a SDA for over 30 years and though in many ways I felt I was growing in Christ, I also felt undone so many times that I realized I was not growing in ways that changed my heart beyond a status quo. Most of my efforts were from fear, threats , a sense of responsiblility,and being lost. Love was not growing in a deep and nurturing way. It becomes all about checklist performace and works as a reaction to "making our calling and election sure." I too am here to learn. I accept that my own toes will get stepped on here. Emotions run high sometimes. Jim | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 6004 Registered: 9-2006 |
Asetechrail, My comment was not meant to bring direct insult to you,your post made me sit here and cry my heart out for about five minutes, I cried over the years of spiritual abuse I suffered because of crap like this. You didn't say you wanted to learn the truth of the matter, you just threw it out there with no explanation of why you did it. Where in your post did you say anything about needing to know what others think? My last phrase meant only that I was thoroughly disgusted with it. You just throw something like that out with no explanation that I could see, and then say, well...thats the thanks it get! What I would like to know is what you expected? Lets just take it for granted that you would have given explanation of what you were doing if you had thought about it, and have a little peace around here huh? River | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 6005 Registered: 9-2006 |
This crap happens EVERY Faf week-end that has ever been held, the devil just gets in here and gets everybody worked up. It does beat all! | ||
| Asetechrail Registered user Username: Asetechrail Post Number: 17 Registered: 1-2010 |
Jim, I did not take your comments as a rejection or censure. Perhaps I opened up a can of worms here but that was not my intent. I did not mean to get my panties in a wad over it all!! I really care very little about what others think of me. 1 Corinthians 4 (New International Version) 1 Corinthians 4 Apostles of Christ 1So then, men ought to regard us as servants of Christ and as those entrusted with the secret things of God. 2Now it is required that those who have been given a trust must prove faithful. 3I care very little if I am judged by you or by any human court; indeed, I do not even judge myself. 4My conscience is clear, but that does not make me innocent. It is the Lord who judges me. 5Therefore judge nothing before the appointed time; wait till the Lord comes. He will bring to light what is hidden in darkness and will expose the motives of men's hearts. At that time each will receive his praise from God. I am only here to find what others believe. I will take it or leave it according to scripture and the Holy Spirit. Some further reading from Romans seems to help clarify some things for me on a personal level. Romans 7 (New International Version) Romans 7 An Illustration From Marriage 1Do you not know, brothers—for I am speaking to men who know the law—that the law has authority over a man only as long as he lives? 2For example, by law a married woman is bound to her husband as long as he is alive, but if her husband dies, she is released from the law of marriage. 3So then, if she marries another man while her husband is still alive, she is called an adulteress. But if her husband dies, she is released from that law and is not an adulteress, even though she marries another man. 4So, my brothers, you also died to the law through the body of Christ, that you might belong to another, to him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit to God. 5For when we were controlled by the sinful nature,[a] the sinful passions aroused by the law were at work in our bodies, so that we bore fruit for death. 6But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code. Struggling With Sin 7What shall we say, then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! Indeed I would not have known what sin was except through the law. For I would not have known what coveting really was if the law had not said, "Do not covet."[b] 8But sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, produced in me every kind of covetous desire. For apart from law, sin is dead. 9Once I was alive apart from law; but when the commandment came, sin sprang to life and I died. 10I found that the very commandment that was intended to bring life actually brought death. 11For sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, deceived me, and through the commandment put me to death. 12So then, the law is holy, and the commandment is holy, righteous and good. 13Did that which is good, then, become death to me? By no means! But in order that sin might be recognized as sin, it produced death in me through what was good, so that through the commandment sin might become utterly sinful. 14We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. 15I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. 16And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. 17As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. 18I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature.[c] For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. 19For what I do is not the good I want to do; no, the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing. 20Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it. 21So I find this law at work: When I want to do good, evil is right there with me. 22For in my inner being I delight in God's law; 23but I see another law at work in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within my members. 24What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? 25Thanks be to God—through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God's law, but in the sinful nature a slave to the law of sin. Footnotes: Romans 7:5 Or the flesh; also in verse 25 Romans 7:7 Exodus 20:17; Deut. 5:21 Romans 7:18 Or my flesh Romans 8 (New International Version) Romans 8 Life Through the Spirit 1Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus,[a] 2because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death. 3For what the law was powerless to do in that it was weakened by the sinful nature,[b] God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful man to be a sin offering.[c] And so he condemned sin in sinful man,[d] 4in order that the righteous requirements of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the sinful nature but according to the Spirit. 5Those who live according to the sinful nature have their minds set on what that nature desires; but those who live in accordance with the Spirit have their minds set on what the Spirit desires. 6The mind of sinful man[e] is death, but the mind controlled by the Spirit is life and peace; 7the sinful mind[f] is hostile to God. It does not submit to God's law, nor can it do so. 8Those controlled by the sinful nature cannot please God. 9You, however, are controlled not by the sinful nature but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ. 10But if Christ is in you, your body is dead because of sin, yet your spirit is alive because of righteousness. 11And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit, who lives in you. 12Therefore, brothers, we have an obligation—but it is not to the sinful nature, to live according to it. 13For if you live according to the sinful nature, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live, 14because those who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God. 15For you did not receive a spirit that makes you a slave again to fear, but you received the Spirit of sonship.[g] And by him we cry, "Abba,[h] Father." 16The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God's children. 17Now if we are children, then we are heirs—heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ, if indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory. Future Glory 18I consider that our present sufferings are not worth comparing with the glory that will be revealed in us. 19The creation waits in eager expectation for the sons of God to be revealed. 20For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope 21that[i] the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God. 22We know that the whole creation has been groaning as in the pains of childbirth right up to the present time. 23Not only so, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies. 24For in this hope we were saved. But hope that is seen is no hope at all. Who hopes for what he already has? 25But if we hope for what we do not yet have, we wait for it patiently. 26In the same way, the Spirit helps us in our weakness. We do not know what we ought to pray for, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groans that words cannot express. 27And he who searches our hearts knows the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for the saints in accordance with God's will. More Than Conquerors 28And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him,[j] who[k] have been called according to his purpose. 29For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified. 31What, then, shall we say in response to this? If God is for us, who can be against us? 32He who did not spare his own Son, but gave him up for us all—how will he not also, along with him, graciously give us all things? 33Who will bring any charge against those whom God has chosen? It is God who justifies. 34Who is he that condemns? Christ Jesus, who died—more than that, who was raised to life—is at the right hand of God and is also interceding for us. 35Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall trouble or hardship or persecution or famine or nakedness or danger or sword? 36As it is written: "For your sake we face death all day long; we are considered as sheep to be slaughtered."[l] 37No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. 38For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons,[m] neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, 39neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord. Footnotes: Romans 8:1 Some later manuscripts Jesus, who do not live according to the sinful nature but according to the Spirit, Romans 8:3 Or the flesh; also in verses 4, 5, 8, 9, 12 and 13 Romans 8:3 Or man, for sin Romans 8:3 Or in the flesh Romans 8:6 Or mind set on the flesh Romans 8:7 Or the mind set on the flesh Romans 8:15 Or adoption Romans 8:15 Aramaic for Father Romans 8:21 Or subjected it in hope. 21 For Romans 8:28 Some manuscripts And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God Romans 8:28 Or works together with those who love him to bring about what is good—with those who Romans 8:36 Psalm 44:22 Romans 8:38 Or nor heavenly rulers I am not going to come on this forum and argue with anyone about anything. I am looking for truth and will only accept that which comes from scripture and the Holy Spirit. I long for open dialogue and brotherhood with others in Christ. I will not however be hung on anyones lamp post.  The above texts from Romans are in their entirety. I don't think it is even possible to take it out of context. Kent | ||
| Skeeter Registered user Username: Skeeter Post Number: 518 Registered: 12-2007 |
The Devil may get in here and stir things up sometimes ... but we are all brothers and sisters in Christ and he aint gonna win the argument. We just have to hang in here with and for each other and show patience and love. Some of us (me included) are still struggling with getting all the SDA crap driven out of our heads and learning what the Bible really does and does not say. Just when I think I am getting things straightened out in my head and feeling confident that the SDA "veil" has been torn to shreds and safely in the trash can.. something shows up and makes me start wondering about things all over again... I "knew" certain things to be "truth" as a SDA... Now that I know that I know that I know that SDAism is really messed up and totally wrong... it is hard to aknowledge that sometimes I again read something and feel that stupid veil forming and have to rip it off and throw it out over and over again. Even when actively a SDA I never thought Ellen White had much influence on me. I just didnt realize how much of her was ingrained into everything they teach. We were getting spoon fed Ellenisms even when we thought we were getting the pure Gospel. So sad. I apologize for my part in this discussion. I just have this deep yearning to learn truth. REAL truth and I still get pretty mixed up sometimes while trying to sort it all out. Please dont give up on me. Maybe I should go into lurk mode for a while and just keep my thoughts and opinions to myself. I think I learn better when I just shut up and listen instead of taking part in discussion. This forum is my church family. I go into a stick church building once in a while but am afraid to commit myself to the point of actually "joining" one. Maybe someday... maybe not. I will just wait and see how the Lord leads. Skeeter |
