| Author | Message | ||
| Jim02 Registered user Username: Jim02 Post Number: 916 Registered: 5-2007 |
I have been listening to Pastor David Jermiah's series on Heaven. He brought up his belief that it is not a question as to whether we will be saved , but what our rewards will be. I have no dispute regarding the concept of awards in heaven. I am confused as to how to balance the idea of being assured of salvation even in the light of known sin or sins not overcome in this life. Yes, I know the SDA major in a focus on works through the sanctifaction process. Cleaning up our behaviour, improving service to God and so on. But the problem I have is that there are many scriptures that point to being lost as a result of failure on our part. What exactly is our access to eternal life? I know the Bible teaches that salvation is based upon faith in Christ and not of works, it is a gift. As the teaching goes, it appears that the works shall be consumed or rewarded, but that our souls will be saved regardless. That we cannot be lost once we have accepted or believed upon Christ. Is this an unqualified statement or all inclusive? What then is the judgement all about? Is it a secondary event to assign us our duty stations in heaven and or our level of suffering in hell? Or is it a question of our assessed condition whether we are able to be saved at all? Jim | ||
| Skeeter Registered user Username: Skeeter Post Number: 508 Registered: 12-2007 |
I still have questions about that as well. I guess some SDA lessons are just harder to unlearn than others. I keep hearing that ALL we need to be saved is to believe that Jesus is the Son of God (God the Son)and that He came to this earth in human form and died and was resurrected for our sins. I do believe that... and I am assuming that with that teaching it is assuming that because of our love and gratitude to Jesus that we will never again (intentionally) sin if we are TRULY saved. Since there are passages in the Bible such as 'show me your faith without works, and I will show you my faith BY my works'(not sure of the exact wording) and 'faith without works is dead being alone' etc. I know the SDA idea of reaching a state of perfection is totally wrong,, but a question that keeps popping up in my head is even though we have Faith and believe that Jesus is our Lord and Savior, what if someone who does "believe" makes a conscious decision and does something bad ? Will they then loose their salvation ? Doesnt the Bible say somewhere that even the Devil believes and trembles ? The Devil knows full well who Jesus is, he believes, but he is lost. So doesnt our Faith and belief have to be combined with a certain amount of works in order for our faith to be acceptable to God ? If not, why not ? Francie | ||
| Skeeter Registered user Username: Skeeter Post Number: 509 Registered: 12-2007 |
I know we can never be totally without sin while we are here on this earth.. and I do NOT want to do anything to hurt God... and I believe if I make a stupid mistake and I am truly sorry and I ask Him to forgive me and to help me not to make stupid decisions that He will forgive me, BUT what about the person who believes,,, and yet CONTINUES in sinning deliberately ? I just find it hard to believe that God would wink at that kind of sin and just keep forgiving every time He is asked to forgive,,, because if the person were TRULY sorry they would not continue to sin thinking they could get away with it.. Like a man my husband used to work with years ago told him.. that he liked being Catholic, because he could go and get drunk and do anything he wanted and then just go to confession. That is deliberately sinning. And for that kind of deliberate sinning I think God would be very justified in smacking someone upside the head with a lightning bolt or something to get their attention. | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 3140 Registered: 10-2004  |
No, that is not what Bible-believing Christians teach. If someone is saved they will never again sin? What? Where are you getting this from? We all sin continually, both "intentionally" and "unintentionally." James 2 says that the demons believe that "God is one," but tremble. "You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder." (James 2:19 NIV.) But they don't (and don't have the option to) trust in Jesus Christ for salvation. That is saving faith and it produces fruit/good works. The works are the result of salvation, not a requirement in order to obtain it.
No. God is the one who gives us faith, so of course it is acceptable to Him. "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9not as a result of works, so that no one may boast." (Ephesians 2:8-9 NASB.) The only way to be saved is to trust in Jesus Christ's sacrifice alone for our salvation. Trusting partially in your works to make yourself acceptable to God will do you no good. This was one of the most important points of the Protestant Reformation--that we are saved by grace alone, through faith alone (sola fide). We can't add anything to our faith (which is a gift from God), in order to make it more acceptable to Him! And it's not our faith that saves us, it's God's grace--His unmerited favor which He bestows upon us. Faith is merely the tool (God's tool)--the means--by which He saves us. He saves us by His grace through faith. Jeremy | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 10938 Registered: 12-2003  |
And this saving faith is marked by what Jesus called being "born again (see John 3:3-5). He told Nicodemus that in order to see the kingdom of heaven, we must be born again; flesh gives birth to flesh, but Spirit gives birth to spirit. It is being born again, not the suppression of sin, that marks our transference from the the domain of darkness into the kingdom of God's beloved Son (Col 1:13). This is what guarantees our future and generates our new birth (Ephesians 1:13-14). Colleen | ||
| Skeeter Registered user Username: Skeeter Post Number: 510 Registered: 12-2007 |
Ok, I am overly tired and not getting what I mean put down in the right words.. I went back and read what I wrote and it didnt make sense to me either.... I think you pretty well nailed it with this . "But they don't (and don't have the option to) trust in Jesus Christ for salvation." Maybe that is explanation of the difference I was searching for. "Trusting partially in your works to make yourself acceptable to God will do you no good." I didn't make myslef clear... I didnt mean to say that I thought works would make us in any way acceptable to God,, I know the only way to be saved is through faith in God's grace and NOT by our works,,, and yes, I believe our faith is given to us by God and it is acceptable to Him... Yes, I believe Faith produces good works, that the works are a result of our faith. That is what I meant... IF someone REALLY has FAITH .. how can they still DELIBERATELY make a CHOICE to keep sinning and if they do make that CHOICE to sin, then ARE they REALLY saved ? CAN a person truly have faith that they are saved and yet deliberately still make a choice to continue in what they know is sin ? "He saves us by His grace THROUGH faith." If a person truly has faith, how can they continue to CHOOSE to sin? And if they CHOOSE to sin, will God still allow them to have faith that He will save them no matter what ? Ok, to take an example to an extreme.... What if someone believes in Jesus Christ and believes that they are saved by faith and not by their works and they therefore believe that they will be saved no matter what they do ( even murder) as long as they have FAITH that God will forgive them ? IN a case like that can we still be confident that "once saved always saved" ? I think that IF someone is foolish enough to actually do something like that,,, it would be possible for them to loose their salvation. I went (long drive) to see my Mom yesterday,didnt get but maybe an hour of sleep all night, got back late today and not thinking straight, so still not sure if I am getting across what I am really meaning. Think I better go to bed. Francie | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 5994 Registered: 9-2006  |
We all have questions at one time or another, the wonderful thing about being 'in Christ' is that we can cast our cares on him, because he actively, not passively, cares for us. Even our questioning hearts, and our tired minds. Just give it all to Jesus. When we labor with what we do not yet know, we can take his yoke upon us,come to him, and he will give us rest. Sin in the flesh, is just what it is, sin in the flesh. But when we are hidden away in Christ, it won't be in our heart to go out and get drunk, nor to murder or steal from others. If that starts to try to enter our heart, God guards the doors of our heart. The Bible tells us in John I 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: John I 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world. Jeremy gave very good answers. River | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 5995 Registered: 9-2006 |
Egg on the floor Flour on my face, egg on the floor’ I saw my father as he peeked through the door’ Baking cookies, baking cake’ Pleasing my father, for the fathers sake’ I saw the light of love, as with amusement he replied’ That is good child, I am at your side’ I know you long to produce good food for my table’ Here, let me help you, you I will enable’ As he kissed me on the cheek, got flour on his face’ I was overcome, with his amazing grace’ Copyright February 2010  River | ||
| Loneviking Registered user Username: Loneviking Post Number: 711 Registered: 7-2000 |
Skeeter: CAN a person truly have faith that they are saved and yet deliberately still make a choice to continue in what they know is sin ? "He saves us by His grace THROUGH faith." If a person truly has faith, how can they continue to CHOOSE to sin? And if they CHOOSE to sin, will God still allow them to have faith that He will save them no matter what ? ------------------------- Well, we still have free will, even after we are saved. And because of that, we can choose to reject Gods' free gift of salvation. He's not going to save you against your will. On the other hand, Christians should be assured of their eternal salvation. This quote sums it up well: Christians can and should be assured of their eternal election. This is evident from the fact that Scripture addresses them as the chosen ones and comforts them with their election, Eph. 1:4; 2 Thess. 2:13. This assurance of one's personal election, however, springs only from faith in the Gospel, from the assurance that God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not His Son into the world to condemn the world; on the contrary, through the life, suffering, and death of His Son He fully reconciled the whole world of sinners unto Himself. Faith in this truth leaves no room for the fear that God might still harbor thoughts of wrath and damnation concerning us. Scripture inculcates that in Rom. 8:32, 33: "He that spared not His own Son, but gave Him up for us all, how shall He not with Him also freely give us all things? Who shall lay anything to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth." (From the doctrine section of the Lutheran church, Missouri Synod site) Now, here's a question to think about. If there is no 'once saved,always saved', then how do we continue in the one,true faith? | ||
| Dennis Registered user Username: Dennis Post Number: 1873 Registered: 4-2000  |
"Fallen man is still free to choose what he desires, but because his desires are only wicked he lacks the moral ability to come to Christ. As long as he remains in the flesh, unregenerate, he will NEVER choose Christ. He cannot choose Christ precisely because he cannot act against his own will. He has no desire for Christ. He cannot choose what he does not desire. His fall is great. It is so great that only the effectual grace of God working in his heart can bring him to faith." (Excerpt from Chosen by God by Dr. R. C. Sproul, p. 75; Emphasis supplied) Dennis Fischer | ||
| Bb Registered user Username: Bb Post Number: 636 Registered: 7-2004 |
I think it boils down to the invitation of the Holy Spirit to live in you, not whether you sin or not. If you let the Holy Spirit live in you and guide you then you will naturally be led in the direction of Jesus. The book of John is the best explanation of Jesus in my mind....Just read the simplicity of a part of John 10... John 10 The Shepherd and His Flock 1"I tell you the truth, the man who does not enter the sheep pen by the gate, but climbs in by some other way, is a thief and a robber. 2The man who enters by the gate is the shepherd of his sheep. 3The watchman opens the gate for him, and the sheep listen to his voice. He calls his own sheep by name and leads them out. 4When he has brought out all his own, he goes on ahead of them, and his sheep follow him because they know his voice. 5But they will never follow a stranger; in fact, they will run away from him because they do not recognize a stranger's voice." 6Jesus used this figure of speech, but they did not understand what he was telling them. 7Therefore Jesus said again, "I tell you the truth, I am the gate for the sheep. 8All who ever came before me were thieves and robbers, but the sheep did not listen to them. 9I am the gate; whoever enters through me will be saved.[a] He will come in and go out, and find pasture. 10The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy; I have come that they may have life, and have it to the full. 11"I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep. 12The hired hand is not the shepherd who owns the sheep. So when he sees the wolf coming, he abandons the sheep and runs away. Then the wolf attacks the flock and scatters it. 13The man runs away because he is a hired hand and cares nothing for the sheep. 14"I am the good shepherd; I know my sheep and my sheep know me— 15just as the Father knows me and I know the Father—and I lay down my life for the sheep. 16I have other sheep that are not of this sheep pen. I must bring them also. They too will listen to my voice, and there shall be one flock and one shepherd. 17The reason my Father loves me is that I lay down my life—only to take it up again. 18No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down and authority to take it up again. This command I received from my Father." | ||
| Skeeter Registered user Username: Skeeter Post Number: 511 Registered: 12-2007 |
So if someone who says or thinks they are saved but then they at some point in their lives for some reason gives up their faith in God if it is through feelings of being rejected by God (I know He will not reject us, just saying someone could at some point FEEL that way, and yes I know.. our "feelings" are not a safe guide) but IF they turned from God,, kinda like for example, I know there are those who upon leaving the SDA denomination who feel completely lost, they often blame both the "church" and God for their feelings of failure, rejection, etc. etc.... sometimes giving up on religion of any kind completely.. is that person in danger of losing their salvation ? or can we be confident that at some point in their lives God will somehow get through to them and they will once again seek a relationship with Him ? OR is it POSSIBLE for that person who has made a conscious decision to reject God to loose their salvation ? I dont know why I am even wondering about this except that I have often heard the phrase "once saved always saved" and sometimes I think... "unless" because since we are made with freedom of choice (might it be) POSSIBLE to choose to be lost ? Maybe it comes to mind partially because I recently listened again to Mark Martins series "The Gospel and the Covenants" and he shows that whenever God would make a "covenant promise" to people it was a combination of a "Promise, a condition, and a sign" So even though Salvation is indeed a GIFT that we are promised because of FAITH, and there is no way we can ever DO anything to EARN that gift... yet is there not a "condition" to our KEEPING that gift ? Is the ONLY "CONDITION" that we continue to have faith ? and what if we somehow loose our faith ? do we then forfeit the gift ? I apologize for my confusing manner or writing things out... just dont know quite how to explain it clearly. I guess just basically I wondered,, IS it POSSIBLE under ANY circumstances to loose the gift of salvation .. or is it REALLY .. "Once saved always saved... no matter what" ? | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 3141 Registered: 10-2004 |
I would say that that person was most likely never saved. But, no, once you are saved, you cannot lose your salvation. John 6 and John 10 make this absolutely clear, among many other passages. And a believer cannot "lose" their faith. They did not originate it (it is a gift from God) and they do not maintain it. It is all God's doing. "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4to obtain an inheritance which is imperishable and undefiled and will not fade away, reserved in heaven for you, 5who are protected by the power of God through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time." (1 Peter 1:3-5 NASB.) So no, there is no "condition" to keeping the gift. God keeps it for us. Jeremy P.S. Mark Martin does believe in "once saved, always saved" and has some good sermons on this subject also. (Message edited by Jeremy on February 12, 2010) | ||
| Skeeter Registered user Username: Skeeter Post Number: 512 Registered: 12-2007 |
Thank you. I guess I just tend to be a worrier.... I worry about all those who have left false religions and instead of seeking truth, just give up. I have a few inlaws that I just continue to worry about... they are no longer SDA,, but the SDA religion still has a hold on them, almost like if the SDA religion is not true when they completely believed with all their hearts that it was true.. then maybe nothing is true. It is sad,,, and what is sadder still is that they will not actively (or at least openly) seek another church family as long as their SDA mom is still alive... it is as though she would rather they not be in any church at all than to join a church that is non SDA. I guess she feels as long as they dont "join" another church that there is still hope they will someday go back to the SDA "truth". I struggled with that for a while myself... I kept sharing with my MIL things I was learning about the errors of SDA and at first she seemed sincerely interested... but when it got to the point when she realized that I was no longer just questioning doctrines, but was actually convinced that it was WRONG and I gave them no excuse.... well, I am dissappointed to find that our relationship is just not the same. I still love her dearly, but I know she is dissappointed in me for leaving what she still thinks is "truth". But I know in my heart that it is more important to not dissappoint GOD than it is to not dissappoint my MIL no matter how much I love her. She just is not interested in listening anymore as she says "I know how God led me into this message ". so she is convinced she is correct in staying even though she admits there are things wrong... she feels there is no other church that would be any better. I guess I cant do any more but to continue to love her and leave her in Gods hands to somehow reveal to her what He wants her to know in His time. Skeeter | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 5996 Registered: 9-2006 |
The question is, what are you saved from? The word 'saved' in the context, intention and meaning for the Christian, is that we have been brought from death into life. You take the people who say they believe the scriptures teach that one can lose his salvation. Every time I try to pin any one of them down, they end up back pedaling on the issue of their own salvation. It's really funny! You say to them, "Well... so you don't have confidence in Jesus that you're saved?' They say, "Oh yes, I know, I'm saved for eternity!" But I thought you just said that you could be lost.""How could you be saved for eternity, if you are lost at any time?." About that time their brain gets clogged up and they can't speak. Its hilarious! If you got nothing better to do, go find one and kind of lead him along. Apparently, when it comes to them, they cannot be lost, it seems to always boil down to someone else. Haaaa! Tell you what, it must be the neighbor down the street who used to go to church, but now watches the ball game on Sunday. Yep, that must be it! Of course you all know I would never do such a thing, you all know how I never upset anyone ain't that right Jeremy? River | ||
| Skeeter Registered user Username: Skeeter Post Number: 513 Registered: 12-2007 |
Wondering... I know SDA's do NOT believe "once saved always saved" with them it is a constant battle of trying to be "good enough".. But,what do other religions believe ? Methodist , Lutheran, Baptist, Episcopalian, Pentecostals, Churches of Christ, etc. etc. the organized religions that are "Protestant" I know it will vary somewhat between each church body and each individual in those churches, but what do the basic beliefs of their organizations "believe" as far as their written codes, etc. ? How can there be so many different religions and each saying they go by th "Bible ONLY" and still have so many differences in how they worship and what they teach as "truth"? Are there really so many different ways to interpret the Bible ? We are told to take the Bible for what it says,,, and yet so many think it says such different things than what others think it says. Very confusing.... | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 5997 Registered: 9-2006 |
They think everybody's all wrong but them! Of course! | ||
| Skeeter Registered user Username: Skeeter Post Number: 514 Registered: 12-2007 |
Yes River, I know my MIL is confident SHE will be in Heaven someday "after the ressurrection". But she isnt so sure about her children and others who do not share her belief in the SDA church. It is like she is depending on the church to save her instead of Jesus. :-< I told her a while back that I am learning not to believe everything that I think. Just because I may THINK something is true does not make it true. We always have to keep our minds as well as our hearts open to learn,, even though it means taking the chance that we will find some things we were very SURE were true are not.. we need to be willing to let go of the errors and let in REAL truth as it is revealed to us. Sometimes not easy to let go of dearly held beliefs,, but we have to be willing to do that. (IMO) | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 3142 Registered: 10-2004 |
Here is a quote from Martin Luther which has been much misunderstood but contains some important truths:
Jeremy (Message edited by Jeremy on February 12, 2010) | ||
| Grace_alone Registered user Username: Grace_alone Post Number: 1634 Registered: 6-2006  |
If I might add, Last week in BSF (Bible Study Fellowship) we read from John 13. I loved this - Jesus began to wash the disciples feet and Peter started in... John 13:6 "He came to Simon Peter, who said to him, "Lord, are you going to wash my feet?" 7Jesus replied, "You do not realize now what I am doing, but later you will understand." 8"No," said Peter, "you shall never wash my feet." Jesus answered, "Unless I wash you, you have no part with me." 9"Then, Lord," Simon Peter replied, "not just my feet but my hands and my head as well!" 10Jesus answered, "A person who has had a bath needs only to wash his feet; his whole body is clean. And you are clean, though not every one of you." 11For he knew who was going to betray him, and that was why he said not every one was clean." The BSF leader pointed out that Jesus was telling Peter that he was clean, as opposed to Judas who was not clean. Peter, as well as the other 10 had put their complete faith in Jesus and accepted that he was the Messiah, while at the same time Judas did not and was making his own selfish plans. The BSF leader went on to compare how true believers are clean (or saved), but continue to have "parts" which need to be washed or in a spiritual sense, forgiven. I'd never seen the verse in that light but it really stood out to me. Leigh Anne |
