| Author | Message | ||
| Loneviking Registered user Username: Loneviking Post Number: 703 Registered: 7-2000 |
Well, you just about had the Lutheran formula. 'which we bless' being the operative phrase. The grape juice and the cracker remain that without the words of institution to bless them and bring the presence of the Lord. And even then, the elements don't change, but the presence of the Lord is there. | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 5969 Registered: 9-2006  |
Well...now we are getting somewhere!  Question, if God chose to dwell in his subjects, then why do we look for God in a cracker? Of course said question coming from a southern cracker. I wouldn't go blessing a cracker though, since a cracker cannot have communion except maybe with other crackers. Unless of course you are referring to one salty southern cracker, who will be glad to communion with certain Lutherans of questionable wisdom, but overflowing beauty, which makes up for the lack thereof. | ||
| Loneviking Registered user Username: Loneviking Post Number: 704 Registered: 7-2000 |
Oh, I don't think we can confine Gods' presence to just you and me, or one spot somewhere beyond the blue, do you? Salty crackers----hah! I like that. | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 5974 Registered: 9-2006 |
No | ||
| Bobj Registered user Username: Bobj Post Number: 442 Registered: 1-2006  |
Yes, but . . . I need help on this! John 6:52 The Jews were asking the obvious question, based on the plain statement of Jesus. They understood the metaphor of the Door and the Vine, but this one made the disciples grumble (v 60) and (v 64,66) Jesus knew that some wouldn't believe, many withdrew, and (v 67) will you leave, too? Monergists like this verse (v 65) because it implies Calvinism, but I don't think this was really the issue of the day. Did ancient believers think that the bread and blood were really another sacrifice--a repeat? I guess the next question would be to ask if they viewed the church as literal or symbolic, visible or invisible. I know this gets pretty far away from most of our interests, and I don't want to start much of a discussion here because I really need to do some reading on these things first. Looking forward to this weekend at FAF! | ||
| Bobj Registered user Username: Bobj Post Number: 443 Registered: 1-2006 |
River, what kind of dog in the photo? Is it a Lab? | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 5975 Registered: 9-2006 |
I didn't mean bless the cracker neither, I meant bless God and each other in communion. Unless of course you want to bless a cracker, in which I accept. Bless you for blessing a cracker. | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 5976 Registered: 9-2006 |
Lab. | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 5977 Registered: 9-2006 |
Sorry for the banter Bob, I got to go on a court case now. Its a good question which covers a whole lot of theological territory. Maybe someone has time to answer. | ||
| Bobj Registered user Username: Bobj Post Number: 445 Registered: 1-2006 |
River No need to apologize! Thanks to all of you. As I mentioned, I'm studying a bit. Dr. Hans Larondelle wrote an article The Reformation and the Roman Catholic Schisms! The title itself is arresting! I found it online. I'd like to tell a quick story: I was out walking one day (years ago) and by chance found myself in the company of Dr. Richard Hammill (former president of Andrews) who had written part of the SDA Bible Commentary set. I knew that his "journey" as he put it, had taken him out of the adventist church. So I asked him what he was up to. He said he was studying to write a paper trying to determine the identity of the beast. Fascinating, I thought, assuming he would implicate Rome in some way, but he wasn't kidding. I miss him, and would like to ask him some more questions. I need time to get my questions together, and it could take awhile! Bob | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 5978 Registered: 9-2006 |
No fun sitting with attorneys all afternoon while they go over every discrepancies in your file, then tell you its better to back off a court case that you have put a weeks worth of work into. It reminds me of transubstantiation! In the verses you mentioned I think there are two key scriptures here that we need to keep in mind as we approach this problem. Key one: John 6:47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life. John 6:48 I am that bread of life. Then reading down through the scriptures you mentioned we come to this one: John 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life. Two key scriptures that explain the difference between the Catholic view of transubstantiation (I think I have the right word, correct me if I’m wrong) anyway, the bread and the wine actually becoming Jesus flesh and blood. What the transubstantiation people have missed is the spiritual context of what Jesus is saying. Their eyes are not opened to the Holy Spirit at all, yet they go ahead and read Jesus words I just quoted from the Bible. So they think they can leave the bars and honky tonks, run down to mass and get another dose of Jesus and walla! I’m good to go back to the honky tonk till next time mass comes round. So these people come down there and kneel while the old priest, who is probably worse shape spiritually than they are, pops a cracker in their smacker. The Jews didn’t understand Jesus spiritual words, neither do the Catholics. Earlier in John 4:23 Jesus makes this startling statement, But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. John 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth. A premium saltine cracker in the smacker cannot, in no way shape or form, enable one to worship God in Spirit. That is where the Holy Spirit comes in, he, living in us, enables us to worship him in Spirit and truth. Without Holy Spirit, we are unable. You can’t just do it on Saturday neither, no matter how much you do to prepare for it on Friday. The Adventist, not having the Spirit, try to do it in the flesh, can’t be done though, no more than a cracker in the smacker. From the git go of the earliest days until now people have ate crackers, went down to Podunk Junction to see how many they can dunk, and all manner of fleshly works that don’t work, all because of the failure to understand Jesus words of Spirit and life. So what good does it do to chase the history of unchanged men who through the centuries who didn’t understand what Jesus said in the first place? What does it matter what big sounding words we spurt out, we have to feed on him 24/7, and we drink that cup, and eat that bread in remembrance of his death, his one and final sacrifice for us. His atonement is set before us every minute of every day. This doesn’t answer your particular question, but it does address the problem the Jews had, and still have today. I praise God for his salvation and his redeeming blood. Hallelujah! Now this is just my own opinion. Everybody and his dog also have an opinion. River | ||
| Bobj Registered user Username: Bobj Post Number: 446 Registered: 1-2006 |
Thank you (again!) to each of you in this friendly discussion. I wish I could ask a dozen more questions, and then another dozen would probably follow. I'm just not tuned into the Bible texts the Catholic authors I'm reading are using, so I am seeing things that make me say "what??" but the reading is great and I am not doing it for a game. Believe me, for all I've been through coming out of adventism, my quest for truth certainly isn't about preserving my pride or reputation. I think we could all give similar testimony! So I'd like to ask your prayers. I'm deeply impressed with much of what I read about Catholicism and the Ordhodox church. There was an SDA pastor who left, pastored a series of Protestant churches, then became Eastern Orthodox. He writes about the ancient faith in a way that we formers can really understand--he speaks our language. His name is Matthew Gallatin and the book he wrote about his spiritual journey is entitled Thirsting for God in a Land of Shallow Wells. Even if you never study much about the ancient faith, this one certainly filled in some blanks for me. I also read Upon thie Rock by Stephen Ray, and Surprised by Truth (1 and 2) edited by Patric Madrid, giving the conversion stories of Protestants and others into Catholicism. Many of them parked for a time in Calvinism, just as I did. I'm reading several more, trying to find the best of the best and give the ancient faith an honest look. We're attending a Baptist church right now, very close to our house, with about 25 members and a wonderful view (Grandview Baptist in Grand Terrace) but we are not members. Typical, I guess, for former adventists! Thanks again, everyone. Bob | ||
| Cathy2 Registered user Username: Cathy2 Post Number: 362 Registered: 2-2006 |
Hi Bob, Jeremiah and I (On FAF) have both converted to the Eastern Orthodox church in the past few years and found the spritual home, at last. Jeremiah initially led the way for myself with his gentle witness about Christ on FAF. If you would like to discuss any questions about it, please, feel free to email me. There are many Protestant misconceptions about it. (And insults) Jeremiah will have to speak for himself about questions. choosier1@msn.com God bless you and you family in your reading and seeking. Cathy | ||
| Bobj Registered user Username: Bobj Post Number: 448 Registered: 1-2006 |
Thank you, Cathy. I've been surprised at the misconceptions and caricatures of the ancient faith. It's a serious thing to tear down the body of Christ. I feel like we've come so far, and it was no small thing to come out of adventism, yet it's like we were fighting off a "negative." The question of "what's next" has been asked by some very thoughtful formers. I'd really like to have no theological doubts, for God to move and me to follow, and if God really has a true church out there, I'd love to be part of it. The church weathered astonishing heresies under the guidance of the Holy Spirit. Did Christ leave behind a fallible church capable of teaching error? Thanks for your email address! | ||
| Cathy2 Registered user Username: Cathy2 Post Number: 363 Registered: 2-2006 |
Hi Bob, Yes, it is no small act and choice to come out of Adventism...It is the Holy Spirit and much courage and integrity to do so for all of you. I have been out for 30 years and gone through all the phases, which I see here on FAF, with compassion (and gone through the denominations, including "no organized religion" spurts. Do we desire disorganized religion and faith? Been there, done that, got over it) You are correct--it is an extremely serious thing to witness against the Body of Christ. He is the Head of it, after all... God and what is of Him needs to be taken very, very seriously, reverantly and holy. Christ, himself, said that Hell could not prevail against his Church (Body). Either that was a lie or true down through the centuries to date. His Church/Body has prevailed over every corruption and deception which tried to destroy it. The 7 Church Councils were all about that; Solidyfying Christ's truth in the Church and exactly whom Christ is. (God/man and the Trinity) We will have doubts and questions, but the Holy Spirit will answer with what we need to know, when we need to know it. Not before. But God is never late about it. We will not have it all wrapped up (like Adventism thinks it does), at all times, in our minds and hearts. There are many mysteries of God which we humans will never wrap up in our human understanding and we must accept that with humility. God is God; we are limited creatures (Often, I must pray what the man did to Christ; "Lord, I believe; help my unbelief" I do not understand everything) We are continously seeking our Lord, while he runs to us (The Father towards the Prodical Son for the best example) He runs to us... ...while we are still far off... No matter where we are. You all are Beloved. In Christ, Cathy | ||
| Cathy2 Registered user Username: Cathy2 Post Number: 364 Registered: 2-2006 |
Bob. You asked: "Did ancient believers think that the bread and blood were really another sacrifice--a repeat?" No, they did not. It is the mystical feeding of our souls, healing in Christ, but he gave the "once for all" sacrifice on the cross. In The Orthodox Church, this repeated sacrifice is not taught. And for most Catholics, it is not seen that way, but there are very many varities of Catholism, teaching many things (My sister is Catholic). Feel free to ask. Cathy | ||
| Cathy2 Registered user Username: Cathy2 Post Number: 365 Registered: 2-2006 |
River, You stated: "So they think they can leave the bars and honky tonks, run down to mass and get another dose of Jesus and walla! I’m good to go back to the honky tonk till next time mass comes round. So these people come down there and kneel while the old priest, who is probably worse shape spiritually than they are, pops a cracker in their smacker. The Jews didn’t understand Jesus spiritual words, neither do the Catholics." This is very much not true and it invaldates and insults every devout Catholic and humble priest whom loves our Lord, deeply. There are hyprocrites in every denomination and religion on this earth. We cannot generalize people's spirituality. It is very offensive. Is mockery of and in Christ? ; a fruit of the Holy Spirit? I do not think so. Please, allow all of us to be where and what we are in Christ. Your path is yours; Our paths are ours. We do not mock your way of faith... Cathy | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 5982 Registered: 9-2006 |
Well...I know one thing, I wish you the best in finding Gods blessing. From what I have read here, it does disturb me greatly. What greatly disturbs me is that I think I see evidence of formers just transferring the quest for works over into the works based religions out here today. They look for the church of the christ invisable, and cannot find it. It saddens me. It makes me feel like I am fighting an uphill battle, and the saddest thing of all is that they settle for less than what God has for them. Many come out and end up in the trappings of ceremony that they find in the "ancient" churches. Then when someone criticizes the stick buildings with all its trapping of ceremony, pomp, robes, of its top down cankered, dry, dusty, dustbins of long dead religion, with its twittering, chirping pompas assed preist in long flowing robes, they cry fowl, just as they did in Adventism when someone pinned their ears to the wall. So many of you are finding your stick buildings, well congradudanglations. Thats just what has been sticking in my craw from day one. You all ask capable questions, but seem incapable seeing finding answers that suit you, so you chase one book after another, placing mans knowledge right out there so you can see it and worship at its alters. You formers remind me so much of the days when my children were young, we would take them to the beach, and put a blanket on the sand. The children would look at the waves of water coming in to be spent on the sand, wash up in inch deep water then silently recede. The children would chase the waves in their bare feet, run out, and as soon as the water touched their feet, they would run back toward us laughing with joy, yet fright with just a wet toe or two. They would do this over and over until we gathered up the blanket, and say, "Children, its time to go home." Gods Spirit is like that huge deep ocean of water, water to swim in, water to bear you up in the salty, keeping, brine of his Spirit. Yet you remain children who never more than wet the bottom of your feet, and there you will remain, until the father gathers up the blankets, and says, "Children, its time to go home." You are Gods little children, and I weep for you, ask him to protect you. He has an ocean for you to swim in, but you can't be forced out into the depths of his Spirit. These stick churches out there that you see, are not the body of Christ, the body of Christ is the children. There are only two types of people, the tares and the wheat, and God cautions us to not pull out the tares lest the wheat be plucked up also, but to let the tares grow with the wheat until the harvest is gathered, when the master will separate the tares from the wheat, and put the wheat into his barn, and burn the tares with everlasting fire. That is the condition of the outward evidence of the stick churches today, the enemy has come in during the night, and sowed tares among the wheat. You look for a stick church, something visible, something that is free of tares, but you will not find it. I am sad tonight, just grieved in my heart for you, for his true children. It is only through the eyes of the Holy Spirit that enables me to see the difference between the tares and the wheat. My wish is that, as Gods love flows in from his vast ocean of love, that we each be touched by it, and share his love and his joy. The tares cannot touch that, Oh, they may brush up against us every once in a while to cause us pain, but Gods love is an everlasting source of healing balm, and cannot be defeated. River | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 5983 Registered: 9-2006 |
Cathy, I hear what you are saying, "Just get the heck out and leave us alone." You got it kid. River | ||
| Cathy2 Registered user Username: Cathy2 Post Number: 366 Registered: 2-2006 |
River, "I hear what you are saying, 'Just get the heck out and leave us alone.' You got it kid." Oh, just stop it! Don't even go there with me! I said nothing about you leaving. (BTW, I am not that much younger than you, kid; I am a grandma) Every time someone confronts you, you threaten to leave. When it comes to Lutherans, Catholics, and EO, you really, really do not know what you are talking about. That is sooo Adventist. We have been there...we were raised Protestant, too, with all the bias against anything "too Catholic". I have respected and appreciated you in several ways, River, but, honey, you need to dial it back some. Harshness and mockery is never going to bring anyone closer to Christ nor feed them. Even about Adventists because these are family we love and pray for with tears, to get out of bondage. We know of the "Adventist spirit" very well, but these people need much prayer. They need us to live our faith in love. Everyone I have known here, for years, is allergic to any "works" religion. Give us some credit even when we are vulnerable in the beginning. We are not as spiritually fragile as you make us out to be. We have Christ, the Holy Spirit, whom freed us to begin with, taught us the truth, and all the courage and pain it took to leave an entire way of life; all we knew. These people here are braver than any group I know. They seek Christ more than anyone I know. Well, I'm done hollerin'. God bless you, River Cathy |
