| Author | Message | ||
| Cordurb Registered user Username: Cordurb Post Number: 45 Registered: 4-2009 |
I shared some verses regarding Jesus purification of all meats with my Adventist wife last night. In particular, Genesis 9:3 "Every moving thing that lives shall be food for you. I have given you all things, even as the green herbs." She zeroed right in on verse 4 - "but you shall not eat flesh with its life - its blood." While I don't think this changes the truth of verse 3, I did not know how to answer her. She is one of those that believes the King James is the only true translation and said it uses the word "meat" instead of food in verse 3 and that flesh in verse 4 means meat. I said "what does every moving that that moves me to you?" She at least admitted that meant living things, but we are not supposed to it animals with blood - i.e. beef. Also, in Mark 7:19, she says the last clause "thus purifying all foods" is not in the original translation. Can anyone help me with this? Thanks. | ||
| 8thday Registered user Username: 8thday Post Number: 1414 Registered: 11-2007  |
There are verses in the Torah that explain (I'll try to look them up later if no one else has them handy - don't have time right now) you must drain the blood from the meat. It's obviously not talking about AVOIDING meat. If it were, then God was wrong in all the sacrifices he commanded them to kill.. AND eat of. Do SDA's think they just killed the animals? There is another verse that says they may kill and eat... as much as they wish. Sondra | ||
| 8thday Registered user Username: 8thday Post Number: 1415 Registered: 11-2007 |
Okay, I'm back - had to finish cooking my chicken. lol. This is the Hebrew word for "moving thing" - clearly referring to an amimal, not just living things in general. I don't know Hebrew, so just going by this, it's interesting. H7431 reh'-mes From H7430; a reptile or any other rapidly moving animal: - that creepeth, creeping (moving) thing. Here is the later instruction - if sda's REALLY kept the Law.. they would know. ha. Lev 17:10 And whatsoever man there be of the house of Israel, or of the strangers that sojourn among you, that eateth any manner of blood; I will even set my face against that soul that eateth blood, and will cut him off from among his people. Lev 17:11 For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul. Lev 17:12 Therefore I said unto the children of Israel, No soul of you shall eat blood, neither shall any stranger that sojourneth among you eat blood. Lev 17:13 And whatsoever man there be of the children of Israel, or of the strangers that sojourn among you, which hunteth and catcheth any beast or fowl that may be eaten; he shall even pour out the blood thereof, and cover it with dust. Lev 17:14 For it is the life of all flesh; the blood of it is for the life thereof: therefore I said unto the children of Israel, Ye shall eat the blood of no manner of flesh: for the life of all flesh is the blood thereof: whosoever eateth it shall be cut off. Lev 17:15 And every soul that eateth that which died of itself, or that which was torn with beasts, whether it be one of your own country, or a stranger, he shall both wash his clothes, and bathe himself in water, and be unclean until the even: then shall he be clean. I really like these: Deu 12:15 Notwithstanding thou mayest kill and eat flesh in all thy gates, whatsoever thy soul lusteth after, according to the blessing of the LORD thy God which he hath given thee: the unclean and the clean may eat thereof, as of the roebuck, and as of the hart. Deu 12:16 Only ye shall not eat the blood; ye shall pour it upon the earth as water. Deu 12:20 When the LORD thy God shall enlarge thy border, as he hath promised thee, and thou shalt say, I will eat flesh, because thy soul longeth to eat flesh; thou mayest eat flesh, whatsoever thy soul lusteth after. Deu 12:21 If the place which the LORD thy God hath chosen to put his name there be too far from thee, then thou shalt kill of thy herd and of thy flock, which the LORD hath given thee, as I have commanded thee, and thou shalt eat in thy gates whatsoever thy soul lusteth after. Deu 12:22 Even as the roebuck and the hart is eaten, so thou shalt eat them: the unclean and the clean shall eat of them alike. Deu 12:23 Only be sure that thou eat not the blood: for the blood is the life; and thou mayest not eat the life with the flesh. Deu 12:24 Thou shalt not eat it; thou shalt pour it upon the earth as water. I hope, after all that -this was the point she was getting at there - grasping for straws, another really great ability of the Adventist mind. ha. =) I know - did it alot myself. Sondra | ||
| Surfy Registered user Username: Surfy Post Number: 618 Registered: 11-2007 |
Just about all animals have blood in their meat. Even fish. So when we are told to eat ALL animals except the ones with blood...that does not leave much..even the "clean" meats that the Isrealites ate would be forbidden if this was the case. Obviously, it means something else. When animals are butchered, they are hung up so the blood drains out. See above texts. Also, "eaten with their life blood still in them" could mean that they are not to be eaten while they are still alive. My guess is that 4000-6000 years ago, making sure the animal was dead and cooked probably wasn't a huge priority for them. Adventists have a special hatred for the eating of pork and beef. Beef is a "clean" meat and could be eaten and enjoyed by even the Isrealites, including the priests. So if they wanted to follow the Isrealite dietary laws, there would be a lot of meat they could eat. If they wanted to follow the Biblical dietary laws, that were given to just about everyone else, they would be free to eat anything they could get past their lips. Instead they choose to make up and follow their own laws and call them given of God even though they contradict both Isrealite and other Biblical dietary laws. And then judge, condemn and even discipline others if they don't follow their laws. Surfy | ||
| Animal Registered user Username: Animal Post Number: 713 Registered: 7-2008  |
I hope I aint on anyones menu...lol lol lol lol ...Animal | ||
| Cordurb Registered user Username: Cordurb Post Number: 46 Registered: 4-2009 |
Thanks Sondra and Surfy. Very helpful. Makes sense to me. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 10811 Registered: 12-2003  |
Animal--your diet of root beer and popcorn has doubtless failed to give your meat the proper taste and texture. You are safe, I believe... You are a Safe Animal—and a Saved Animal! Colleen | ||
| Jrt Registered user Username: Jrt Post Number: 932 Registered: 10-2008 |
Cordub, Not sure if this is helpful ... There is a story about King Saul giving the mandate that his army was not to eat anything during one of their fights (1 Sam. 14:24 - 32 ). The men were so hungry at the end of the fight and day - they started slaughtering animals eating them right away. The Bible says they butchered them on the ground and ate them, together with the blood. Saul rebuked his men for "breaking faith" and he also said, "Do not sin against the Lord by eating meat with blood still in it." vs. 34. So they set something up to drain the blood ... not that they didn't eat meat - only to drain the blood from the meat. This is why Muslims and Jews have specific dietary laws concerning meat and how the blood is drained from them. They have to buy their meat specially prepared with the "blood" drained. The Israelites ate meat, but not with blood in it. The New Testament specifically mentions that we are not to be concerned about these dietary laws given to the Jews any longer (Read all of Col. 2). Yet, it is interesting in Acts 15 that the Jewish council convened and determined what was proper to require of the Gentiles coming in ... what do we do with all these gentiles coming in - should they be required to be circumcised? Peter says in Acts 15 that they should not make things difficult for the Gentiles who were turning to God. "Instead we should write to them, telling them to abstain from food polluted by idols, from sexual immorality, from the meat of strangled animals and from blood." (Acts 15:19,20) My two cents worth  . Nowhere in the New Testament are believers commanded to have all the dietary laws of the Jews - Col. 2 is quite candid about this. Pass the root beer and popcorn please. And while your at it a little shrimp on the side would be nice, sorry, animal. Keri | ||
| Bskillet Registered user Username: Bskillet Post Number: 643 Registered: 8-2008 |
The passage about declaring all foods clean is indeed in the original text. It is in the earliest manuscripts. | ||
| Cordurb Registered user Username: Cordurb Post Number: 47 Registered: 4-2009 |
Keri, Thanks for texts. I appreciate it. Bskillet, I assume you are talking about Mark 7:18-19. Any idea where I would find more details about that? Thanks, Corey | ||
| 8thday Registered user Username: 8thday Post Number: 1416 Registered: 11-2007 |
I always wondered about that notation Brent - if it was authentic or not. That one is very helpful!! Reading again through the OT - the things that really make God upset are serving false gods, shedding innocent blood, immorality, and taking advantage of the poor and the stranger. Most of Israel's history of Kings - they did not even observe Passover, and there isn't any rebuke for that I can find. (a sin similar to breaking the Sabbath). Perspective. Even if we were still under all those things - sda's still put WAY more emphasis on them than God ever did. Sondra | ||
| Bskillet Registered user Username: Bskillet Post Number: 644 Registered: 8-2008 |
Well Corey, I heard it from Dale Ratzlaff, but that is probably not a source your wife would accept. The phrase does appear in the original manuscripts of my Greek Interlinear Bible. The KJV wrongly translates it as "thus purging all meats," which the Greek does not support. The Greek supports the idea of all meats being declared clean, specifically ceremonially. Your wife might want to read up on why the KJV was authorized by King Jimmie. She might find out that it was authorized for purely political reasons, including James' desire to be the English Pope and support the Divine Right of Kingds, and the translators were not always true to the original text. The KJV is not as accurate as more modern scholarly translations. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 10814 Registered: 12-2003 |
The KJV was based on later manuscripts. The newer translations such as NASB, NIV, ESV, etc. have drawn on older MS that have been discovered since the KJV was translated in 1610. The sentence in Mark is, indeed, in the earliest manuscripts. Colleen | ||
| Bskillet Registered user Username: Bskillet Post Number: 645 Registered: 8-2008 |
My opinion in all of this is that unless someone has the Holy Spirit teaching him or her the Bible, it won't matter how well you argue with them about it, or how advanced your resources, or how well you parse the Greek and Hebrew, etc. The person will still not understand. Spiritual things can only be discerned spiritually, and that means they can only be discerned if the Spirit teaches them to us. | ||
| Cordurb Registered user Username: Cordurb Post Number: 48 Registered: 4-2009 |
Thank you. I really enjoy the insight and learning I get here. When I read these things it helps me study more. | ||
| Chris Registered user Username: Chris Post Number: 1561 Registered: 7-2003  |
Adventists, who continue to adhere to old covenant food laws, object to the inclusion of Mark’s parenthetical explanatory statement. Their objection is based primarily on the fact that the translators of the King James Bible (published in 1611) rendered the original Greek as, “purging all meats”. The transliterated Greek verb translated as “purging” in the KJV is katharizo. Strong’s Greek and Hebrew Dictionary states that the definition of katharizo is “to pronounce clean in a levitical sense”. As it is used in Mark 7:19, katharizo is in present tense, masculine participle, and active voice. While we would translate this verb in the past tense, Greek writers often used verbs in present tense to describe past actions as a way of conveying immediacy and to provide vividness to the story telling. The masculine participle and active voice indicate that Jesus is the one producing the action in this narrative. Given the Strong’s definition of katharizo, as well as tense, mood, and voice, a reasonably transparent rendering of the Greek phrase could be: “He is pronouncing kosher all meats.” My rather awkward, but very literal translation, is in agreement with the approach used by nearly all modern translations in rendering katharizo, as it appears in Mark 7:19, as “He declared…clean” or other similar wording. This understanding of the Greek grammar also makes it clear that these are the written words of Mark describing the actions of Christ and therefore modern translators are correct to enclose this phrase in parenthesis as Mark’s parenthetical explanatory statement. Chris | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 10816 Registered: 12-2003 |
It's also important to notice the progression from Mark 7 where Jesus declared all foods clean to Mark 8 where He fed the 4,000. In Mark 7:31 we learn that Jesus [and His disciples] left Tyre and went through Sidon, "down to the Sea of Galilee and into the region of the Decapolis." There he healed a man who could not speak. The Decapolis was Gentile territory. Possibly Jesus was avoiding Galilee where many people wanted to forcefully crown him king. At any rate, Jesus tool His disciples straight into Gentile territory. Chapter 8 opens with, "During those days another large crowd gathered." So, while they were in the Decapolis, Gentile territory, a crowd of people gathered to listen to Jesus. Again Jesus asked His disciples for food, blessed it, and had the disciples distribute to all. Here's the significance of this: Jesus had His disciples eating with and feeding Gentiles. That was STRICTLY forbidden. Jews could not eat with Gentiles, no matter what food they were serving. Yet Jesus did this, asking His disciples to serve and eat with Gentiles. He was preparing them for their ministry of the new covenant! This episode happened AFTER "Jesus declared all foods clean." He was systematically revealing to His disciples that in the kingdom of God, all the old rules were upside down. Foods were all clean; people were all clean, and they would personally be ministering to those they grew up believing were anathema. If Adventists were willing to see the Bible for what it says, it clearly reveals that Jesus Himself foreshadowed the undoing of the food laws. Colleen | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 5849 Registered: 9-2006  |
All Jesus is talking about in Mark 7:18-19 is common sense and knowledge the doctors had even back then. So what is a wonder to me is what difference it makes if the word purge is used? What he is saying is that the body has the ability to get rid of the materials it doesn’t or can’t use, and when it is digested by the time it hits the blood stream, it is clean of all toxicants. I think yall are trying to make a mountain out of a mole hill, is what I think. Whats the matter with you Chris, you got to use all them big words like parenthetical? Can you say liver? River Ps. I’m, a poet and didn’t knowit! Anyhow its good to see you Chris. | ||
| Seekr777 Registered user Username: Seekr777 Post Number: 826 Registered: 1-2003  |
River you sure have a distinctive writing style. Even before I see your name connected to a post I know it is you. You keep us all honest as well as entertained. <grin> 2 for the price of 1. Richard | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 5853 Registered: 9-2006 |
There ain't no activity on here Richard, I guess I need to steer something else up. |
