| Author | Message | ||
| Surfy Registered user Username: Surfy Post Number: 613 Registered: 11-2007 |
My adventist wife found a can of spagetti and meatbballs in the pantry yesterday. (I wonder where that came from?) but since that was what my boys and their friend wanted for lunch, she heated it up. Then she read the ingredients and there was beef and pork in the meatballs. She said that was gross and that she had to wash her hands after preparing it for the boys. This is what I said to my adventist wife last night, "I don't want to start a fight or anything but what do you hear when I read this verse to you? What thoughts are going through your head?" Any adventists out there lurking...I ask you the same question. Then I read Mark 7:18,19, (Jesus speaking) "Are you so dull?" He asked. "Don't you see that nothing that enters a man from the outside can make him 'unclean'? For it doesn't go into his heart but into his stomach, and then out of his body." (In saying this, Jesus declared all foods "clean.") Here was her answer, said very sarcastically, "So you mean to tell me that Jesus went right out and ate pork? Don't you know that God told the Children of Isreal not to eat certain foods because those animals were dirty, gross creatures that eat garbage and run around in their own poop that absorbs through their hoofs and gets into their meat? And don't you know that meat is very contaminated today and is not fit to eat? I suppose that you think Paul ate pork, too." and on and on.... I guess that is how the adventist mind works. It's not ending here, that I can promise you. Surfy | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 10790 Registered: 12-2003  |
Sigh. Oh, Surfy--I SO know those aversions and deep twistings of reality. It really annoys me that Adventists are taught that pork and shellfish were forbidden for Israel because they are inherently unclean. Where on EARTH is the evidence for that? The idea of walking through their own poop and absorbing germs that gets into their meat...those are beliefs that have a deep, visceral attachment, and they are completely indefensible. Even educated people devolve into using those arguments. How on earth does one think bacteria enters a hoof and ends up contaminating the muscles that one then cooks before eating?? And that argument must work both ways, if one is to use it at all. Has anyone ever seen a dairy farm? Or even watched grazing beef cattle? Talk about walking in poop... Richard was overtly taught that meat was not food. Eating meat, he learned, is no different from eating dog poop. It's extremely hard to unlearn that sort of brainwashing when it was done from birth on... Only in Christ are we set free from these aversions... Colleen | ||
| Jrt Registered user Username: Jrt Post Number: 922 Registered: 10-2008 |
"Only in Christ are we set free from these aversions." So very true! Non-SDA's can't fully fathom the indoctrination - which includes food. The first time I tried pork I had to pray that God would help me overcome the indoctrination ... I was at someone's home when I tried it for the first time. I thought I might "lose" the meal and was struggling internally unbeknowns to my hostess. I was praying profusely ... knowing intellectually that it was ok to eat - but viscerally the indoctrination was causing me to feel somewhat queasy. Literally, I prayed myself through it. Christmas day I tried my first shrimp (A little easier this time). I had to ask my hostess how to eat it (some eat the tails others do not - my hostess shared how to eat it, hold it, etc. and she doesn't eat the 'tails')... thankfully, they understand this new world I'm entering ... They were present for my first "hamburger" and the husband is having delightful fun with each new eating experience of mine. Surfy, I'll keep you in my prayers as you find opportunities for dialogue and scripture. Keri | ||
| Philharris Registered user Username: Philharris Post Number: 1932 Registered: 5-2007  |
Here are my country "farm boy" thoughts on animal poop: When we lived at Angwin, we had a cow and raised a heifer which we butchered for fresh meat. As a young Adventist boy I loved to walk bare foot into their fresh poop and feel the comferting wonder of warm cow pies ooze up between my toes. OK, I can be a little strange at times. However, I remember this as one of the good moments in my often difficult upbringing. Oh yes, we always were of the meat eating sect of the Adventist crowd and I loved having fresh steaks from the critter I helped raise. For a time we were once caretakers of a farm that had hogs and I am here to tell you their poop really can be hard on the old proboscis! Fearless Phil | ||
| Martinc Registered user Username: Martinc Post Number: 113 Registered: 9-2006 |
Surfy, I feel with you brother. Many of the conversations with my relatives are just like that. When you bring up the plain words of God, and there isn't any text that's plainer than Mark 7, they avoid engaging the words by citing "science" and their own feelings of repugnance. The world of food is a toxic waste dump, so keep your hoofs clean as you tiptoe through the swamp. Major media is full of Fright Science and it seems that is ALL science is about these days. Our own gut feelings filter the words of Christ, so first read the China Study and clean out your cupboard. On the other hand, when an Adventist is willing to serve up what she feels is unclean, this can be progress. The New Covenant mindset is so radically opposed to our entire culture of health and beauty these days, compared to the kingdom of God. We are the strange ones who believe this: "For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit." | ||
| Grace_alone Registered user Username: Grace_alone Post Number: 1618 Registered: 6-2006  |
Surfy, She didn't even tell you what she thought when she heard that scripture. She turned it around and back to you! I guess if I was there and wanted to be sarcastic I would have said "do you mean to tell me that Jesus was lying or didn't really know what he was talking about?!" That would be absolutely unproductive (but you know me and my smart-mouth), so I guess if I were you I would press the issue and ask your wife to own up to what Jesus' words really mean. Hang in there dear friend.  Leigh Anne | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 5825 Registered: 9-2006  |
" Don't you know that God told the Children of Isreal not to eat certain foods because those animals were dirty, gross creatures that eat garbage and run around in their own poop that absorbs through their hoofs and gets into their meat?" Har har! Thanks Surfy, I needed that laugh. I couldn't find the scripture she referred to, so I made up my own. "Thou shall not consume certain dirty gross creatures that walketh in their own poop, and eateth garbage for I have made them." I know you folks are serious, but what you come up with that Adventists say just cracks me up. River | ||
| Surfy Registered user Username: Surfy Post Number: 614 Registered: 11-2007 |
This whole discussion can go back to Cain and Abel. Cain raised vegetables and Abel raised animals. Note it was the vegetarian that resorted to violence. (Ok, I took some liberties with that story.) But the fact remains that before man's fall, God instructed man and animals to eat only plants. After the flood God instructed Noah to eat "Everything that lives and moves will be food for you. Just as I gave you the green plants, I now give you everything"." Gen 9:3. But what happened in the meantime? The question I have is why was Abel raising animals? I'm pretty sure that it was for food. He wouldn't have tended the herds if they were just pets and no animal sacrifice had been done or commanded yet. (Noah was the first recorded person to build an altar and sacrifice.) Possibility Abel was raising them for the wool/skins to be used for clothing but I doubt it. And then God commanded Noah to bring in two of every kind of animal. When that was done, He commanded Noah to also bring in two more of every kind of unclean animal and seven of every kind of clean animal and also seven of ALL kinds of birds. That is the first mention of the clean and unclean thing. Nowhere before had any distinction been made. Would these clean and unclean animals be the same as God listed to the Childern of Isreal? Not necessarily or it would have been two more chickens, two more turkeys and two more quail and seven more ducks and seven more crows...that sort of thing. The distinction between clean and unclean birds had not been made as they were all classified with the unclean (as they were to gather seven and not two). So you can see that this list of clean and unclean is different than what God had given the Children of Isreal. Therefore, I am going to have to conclude that the clean/unclean list of animals given to Noah was different than the one given to the Isrealites. Just because we use the words clean and unclean doesn't mean that we are talking about the same thing. But it is a moot point anyway, as God said everything is good for food. Surfy | ||
| Bskillet Registered user Username: Bskillet Post Number: 642 Registered: 8-2008 |
This is really part of the wider SDA problem regarding Jesus: They do not believe that He is truly authoritative. The don't see Him as fully God, so they don't believe He has the power to supersede Moses or Ellen White. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 10797 Registered: 12-2003 |
Yes, Brent, exactly! I remember my very Adventist MIL once saying to me that Jesus ate fish and meat because the health message hadn't been given yet. What....?! He is only the eternal, almighty God who gave His own word to humanity through men He inspired. He only is the Source of all truth. The health message hadn't been given yet, why, exactly? Because Jesus—almighty God incarnate—hadn't thought of it yet and inspired a nineteenth-century woman to have a vision about it? Truth is truth. If the Health Message is part of "present truth", as Adventists say, then it was truth when Jesus was on earth. He couldn't have been out-of-compliance with His own eternal truth! Colleen | ||
| Psalm107v2 Registered user Username: Psalm107v2 Post Number: 530 Registered: 10-2008  |
Phil, I love riding horses and have stepped in my share of horse mess and I used to chase cows on long summer days but you take the "cow cake" on that one. Brent you got it so right and I might add that they miss that Sovereign God chose the symbols, the ceremonies, the rituals and practices that He wanted to separate His people-Israel-for a specific time and purpose. (yes "scavanger" meats may not be the healthiest foods but they won't damage our bodies eaten in moderation) Jesus "broke" so many of the Levitical rules---touched lepers when He healed them, touched dead people when He raised them, shattered Sabbath rules and as we see above in Mark He changed the food laws. It's all through Him and about Him. Enoch | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 5832 Registered: 9-2006 |
Thank God you said that Enoch, I am safe from the possum I et. I et him in moderation, I didn't eat but one! River | ||
| Philharris Registered user Username: Philharris Post Number: 1935 Registered: 5-2007 |
River, In the eating of only one, does that really define moderation? If so, am I to conclude it is moderate to only eat one elephant? If it was road kill, how much was there left to chow down on anyway? Of course, I understand why you are looking forward to streets made of gold. Asphalt really does detract from the taste of marinated possum. Well, I am now attempting to visualize elephant road kill, giant cow pies and warm toe jam. Come to think of it, that deer that destroyed my car a few weeks back ended up being fragmented road kill and would have been a good test case but the State Trooper didn’t seem to be in the mood to let me scrape some off the road. I did consider putting some into my smoker but didn’t know which chips to use, maybe alder or apple. Even parts of him (he was a spike) may have been more moderate than what you have in mind and there was the issue of asphalt contamination. Fearless Phil | ||
| Asurprise Registered user Username: Asurprise Post Number: 1124 Registered: 7-2007 |
Surfy; gently ask her WHY God told Israel not to eat certain meats. Ask her to read Leviticus 20:24-26. This passage makes it clear to anyone really wanting to know the truth, that God gave Israel that law to show SEPARATION between Jews and Gentiles. Then when Jesus died, the wall of separation was torn down between Jews and Gentiles - Ephesians 2:14,15. And then the reason Peter was given that vision in Acts 10 was to show him that the Gentiles had now been cleansed. (Also Romans 14:14 and 1st Timothy 4:1-5 both show that there isn't such a thing as "unclean" meats anymore.) The sad thing (besides the legalism that shows that they aren't saved) is that by avoiding "unclean" meats, Adventists are in effect saying that the wall is still up between Jews and Gentiles. Since most Adventists are Gentile; they are saying by their actions that they are shut out of the kingdom of God. | ||
| Cordurb Registered user Username: Cordurb Post Number: 43 Registered: 4-2009 |
Surfy, I can totally relate. After 11.5 years of marriage, my MIL finally sent enough Walter Vieth videos to convince my wife to go back to adventism. Know no matter what supporting scripture I provide, meat is unclean and Jesus never said otherwise. I love this forum though. It provides me with the comic relief, and you all actually use real scripture. I visit my wife's SDA church every other week to try and keep my marriage together. Last weeks sermon was how the pastor believed people needed to be careful going around saying "God told them" or I "God directed me to do this or that." So many times, he said, it was not really God but their own ideas. He then used a bunch of EGW quotes to support this. How ironic. Stuff like this is why we have to turn things over to God - we can't fix it on our own. | ||
| 8thday Registered user Username: 8thday Post Number: 1409 Registered: 11-2007  |
Or like.. in the back of an sda Bible I have.. a list of "how to identify a cult" of which they fit nearly every point. Irony. I guess if you are busy pointing something out, people won't think you are guilty of it? I don't know, it's an amazing blindness.. truly. Sondra | ||
| Philharris Registered user Username: Philharris Post Number: 1937 Registered: 5-2007 |
Speaking of SDA "bibles", In my online research yesterday I came across something called: "Spirit of Prophecy Version Bible" which is obviously connected to the SDA folks. Apparently it is a 'work in progess'. Does anybody have any information about this? Fearless Phil | ||
| Seekr777 Registered user Username: Seekr777 Post Number: 822 Registered: 1-2003  |
Fearless Phil, "OK, I can be a little strange at times." ONLY a little???? Richard . | ||
| Philharris Registered user Username: Philharris Post Number: 1938 Registered: 5-2007 |
Richard, Let me tally what little I know about you: 1. Escaped from a deadly cult. 2. Live in a "well populated" locale. 3. Love teaching. 4. Love the Lord. 5. Captured the heart of a very lovely lady. 6. Enjoy travel. 7. Search out the quality things of life. 8. Enjoy the experience of not shaving. For someone who is secure in the arms of his Savior, you seem very normal to me. But, have you heard anything about that SDA attempt at literature I came across? Fearless Phil | ||
| Jrt Registered user Username: Jrt Post Number: 924 Registered: 10-2008 |
Phil, I am aware of a "Spirit of Prophesy" bible that is sold in the local ABC store where I live. Instead of study notes like you might find in an NIV study Bible ... the notes are EGW quotes with references to Great Controversy, Desire of Ages, etc. So the Spirit of Prophesy Bible that I am aware of is like an NIV, but with quotes from EGW in the notes section. Keri |
