| Author |
Message |
Cloudy
Registered user
Username: Cloudy
Post Number: 118
Registered: 7-2007
| | Posted on Friday, December 25, 2009 - 3:20 pm: |     |
Merry Christmas to all!
Christmas is different for us this year because we live far from extended family. I hope those living in areas with blizzards are still able to celebrate Jesus' birth with loved ones.
Nancy |
Surfy
Registered user
Username: Surfy
Post Number: 611
Registered: 11-2007
| | Posted on Saturday, December 26, 2009 - 8:35 am: | |
I don't know if Christmas is all that different since leaving adventism but Christmas is different lately. It used to be that they would play sappy Christmas movies on TV. (You know...the ones with John Schneider and Jacylyn Smith or whoever). Now they play a few of the Christmas cartoons...ONCE and that is all. They didn't even play It's A Wonderful Life or Miracle on 34th Street this year. I think it is because a lot of the movies, especially the old ones, have a religious overtone.
Towns are now putting up community trees instead of Christmas trees and it is not PC to say Merry Christmas anymore.
So what has changed about Christmas? Everything....except the shopping. It's like they are afraid to play or mention anything to do with the Christ child.
Please put Christ back in Xmas.
Surfy |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 10777
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, December 26, 2009 - 6:50 pm: | |
I have been pondering all week a video we saw last weekend. One of our forum members, Nowisee, gave this video to us, and it has changed my entire perspective on not only that star but on the incredible, sovereign, reality-shaping omniscience and planning of God.
It's on Youtube, and because it's one hour long, the DVD is posted in six sections. Because this is so incredibly impacting and paradigm-changing, I'm going to post links to each of the six segments in order.
I'm beggin' y'all to watch this. I'd LOVE to have discussion with you after you see it. This is one of the most astonishing things I've seen. We watched it with our own MartinC who is an amateur astronomer with great experience, and between his evaluation of the actual science and the presenter's careful, reverent handling of the biblical text, I have to say that this video is one of those "pieces" of God's revelation of reality that has come "in the fulness of time".
Here are the links:
Part 1: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KRk4ZBCxO3s
Part 2: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BFSD6QEHFQ4
Part 3: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eaLfFbYYuEc
Part 4: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LQr0Go9ZgIw
Part 5: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1rFWQIyvcH4
Part 6: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lxUGBf5tioU
I am eager to hear your reactions; this presentation has been a subtext in my mind throughout Christmas this year. Amazing!
Colleen |
Christo
Registered user
Username: Christo
Post Number: 195
Registered: 2-2008
| | Posted on Sunday, December 27, 2009 - 7:48 pm: | |
Thanks Colleen, watched it twice,passed it on to friends.
Chris |
Goldenbear
Registered user
Username: Goldenbear
Post Number: 167
Registered: 12-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, December 27, 2009 - 8:42 pm: | |
Colleen,
Last year at our CMA church our Sunday School teacher used this as a subject for a couple of weeks. I loved the video so much I ordered it on Netflix. Took me a while to get it, but I then shared it with several Adventist friends not realizing that it would smack directly at what they had learned. I found that it challenged me in ways that I had never thought. The whole concept of the Revelation connection was unbelievable but reassuring in that in all things God has a plan. If you haven't seen it, watch you won't be dissapointed. And challenged. Don't forget to watch the story of the ram as will - goose bump time.....
Barry |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 10781
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, December 27, 2009 - 10:11 pm: | |
Barry, SO true!!
Last night we watched it with some Adventist kin, and the immediate response was that EGW says the star was a distant cloud of angels, so, even though God "might have" done in the heavens what the DVD states, they knew it had to be angels.
Richard said to me, "So, God might have done that, but because EGW says it was angels, we know it must have been angels??"
I agree with you that this movie challenged me in ways I'd never thought of. The tie-in with Revelation took my breath away.
I was left with such a HUGE sense of God's eternal, sovereign, unfailing grip of security on all of reality. I was moved to tears, and I wasn't the only one who's cried as we showed it. (Well, the SDAs weren't so moved, but the Christians who saw it were...)
Colleen |
Skeeter
Registered user
Username: Skeeter
Post Number: 473
Registered: 12-2007
| | Posted on Sunday, December 27, 2009 - 11:08 pm: | |
I am looking forward to watching :-)
As a child I looked forward to Christmas.. the tree, the presents, writing out a wish list to Santa.. Back then in the public schools I went to we always had a Christmas program on stage in the auditorium complete with the Nativity scenes, then they would show us some Christmas movie and Santa would be at the door as we exited handing out bags with candy and fruit.
They also had the Christmas program in the evening for parents and anyone who wanted to see it. We would sing Christmas carols in school the whole month of December.
When I (at 17) married into an SDA family.... didnt actually become a SDA for several years but we did celebrate Christmas but of course without Santa, and without mention of Christ...... it became a day to get together with family,,, like Thanksgiving but with a tree and gifts added.
As an adult I have never been much of a Santa "fan" and only set out one small one made of plaster that I painted back in 1978 (know because I put the year on bottom) I do decorate for Christmas but with snowmen :-) The one thing that has not changed is the very old angel tree topper that my Mom was going to toss one year when she got a new glass tree topper and I rescued the Angel that had been on our tree every year while I was growing up. She is the first thing put on the tree, and the last thing taken off each year and I pack her well to prevent damage,,, though I did notice a little of the spun glass stuff fell off this year :-(
I think my SDA MIL is getting more of a JW stance on Christmas the past few years.... this year when I called her and said "Merry Christmas" she responded with a half hearted "same to you". That was it. :-(
We had our 2 sons and daughter in laws over and the 6 grandchildren ranging in age from 5 to 18 years. Our daughter was unable to come as she had a bad cold and her husband (SDA) spent the day helping his Dad work on a hay truck.
The day before Christmas 3 of the grandkids came over and we made popcorn balls,,,, that evening the other 3 came over and we baked and decorated cookies. :-) Had fun :-)
Christmas everyone was here for "linner" (between lunch and dinner) We had turkey with all the trimmings and a honey and brown sugar glazed spiral cut ham. My oldest son said to his wife "I never thought I would see the day when my Mom would be buying and cooking a ham". LOL
Maybe its a good thing my daughter and her hubby couldnt come... cause I didnt buy "wham".
Francie |
Kathy23
Registered user
Username: Kathy23
Post Number: 71
Registered: 6-2005
| | Posted on Monday, December 28, 2009 - 11:40 am: | |
I didn't realize until reading your post and watching this video that the belief of the star being angels was from Ellen. Twenty-five years out of Adventism and I'm still finding Ellenisms in my beliefs! |
Jrt
Registered user
Username: Jrt
Post Number: 919
Registered: 10-2008
| | Posted on Monday, December 28, 2009 - 2:20 pm: | |
I just finished the series of utube videos (by the way there is part 7 & 8 on utube). I watched the first three one day and then the last five together today. At first I was skeptical after watching the first three.
But, then, I, too, was moved to tears as I watched the others. When he shared the symbolism in the book of Revelation and I recognized those texts from Adventism - I just cried (they are used quite often in prophesy seminars). And the very last video - which is part 8 - I just wept. I spoke to the computer screen and said, "I'm dust. Who am I that You would pay attention to me?"
Amazing ...
Now that I've recovered a little, I am curious ... Rev. 14 is used often in Adventism - especially during their evangelistic meetings. I just reread Rev. 14.
Colleen, is there any good resources - Biblical commentaries of Rev. 14?
I'd always been taught that the 1/3 of the stars in Rev. 14 meant that Satan took 1/3 of the angels out of heaven with him when he was thrown down to earth. What is your understanding of Rev. 14?
Thank you for sharing these videos. I was blessed. It was something I especially needed to see, today.
Keri |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 10785
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 29, 2009 - 1:23 am: | |
Keri, when we did Revelation in women's Bible study two years ago, we learned that Revelation 14 is referring to a later time. Elizabeth taught it as something that is yet to happen during the tribulation.
John MacArthur's book, "Because The Time Is Near", is a great commentary on Revelation from a dispensational viewpoint. The war in heaven described in Revelation 12 is interpreted in his book and by others as a yet-to-come event. I'm thinking it may also be a "multiple fulfillment" prophecy...
Revelation 14 is certainly seen differently from our SDA "Three Angel's Messages" interpretation, also!
I recommend MacArthur's book. If you've never read a dispensational commentary of Revelation, he is good. He goes through the chapters and their individual paragraphs and comments on them, showing OT connections that help give context and depth to the Revelation visions. MacArthur's a good Bible teacher, and this book is detailed.
Many people dislike his dispensational understanding, but I do find much to recommend his understanding, especially as Revelation echoes so much found in the OT prophecies.
Colleen |
Jrt
Registered user
Username: Jrt
Post Number: 920
Registered: 10-2008
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 29, 2009 - 6:40 am: | |
Oops. I meant to write Rev. 12 instead of Rev. 14. Rev. 12 is what I reread.
This morning I read from the "Believers Bible Commentary" by William MacDonald - something I picked up not long ago. It, too, referred to parts of Rev. 12 and then Rev. 14 as happening in the future - more specifically during the tribulation.
Thanks for the heads-up on John MacArthur's Book. I'll look into it. I believe he has a commentary on the whole Bible too.
One last question - What other commentary writers do you see as sticking close to Biblical text?
Keri |
Psalm107v2
Registered user
Username: Psalm107v2
Post Number: 522
Registered: 10-2008
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 29, 2009 - 9:30 am: | |
The EGW, angels making up the star thing did not hit me until this year. I have been listing to so many Christian radio programs so I'm not sure if it's John Macarther, James MacDonald or Dr David Jeremiah but I was driving along and they were talking about the Magi following the star and I can't remember what exactly what the words wer but it hit me....the star was not a bunch of angels it must have been an Ellenism--I'm with you Kathy23, what a frustrating thing it is to have her keep popping up. Sheesh will that dead woman ever give me a break??? |
Psalm107v2
Registered user
Username: Psalm107v2
Post Number: 523
Registered: 10-2008
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 29, 2009 - 11:03 am: | |
Just watched it and I need to watch it again. The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handiwork. Day unto day uttereth speech, and night unto night sheweth knowledge.
Enoch |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 10787
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 29, 2009 - 10:00 pm: | |
Keri, to be honest, I don't know. I know that I've heard our pastors recommend a couple of commentaries, but I haven't actually gotten them.
I'll ask.
Meanwhile, I find I benefit most if I study the Bible, pray to understand, and consult commentaries only as a last resort. What I have found to be very helpful, though, is Bible Dictionary-type publications. The NIV Study Notes are good because they are more like Bible Dictionary information than commentary. They give historical, linguistic, and internal comments that help one understand the underlying meanings and references within the Bible.
When it comes to Revelation, however, I've found MacArthur to be helpful--in conjunction with studying the book with a teacher who takes the Bible literally instead of "spiritualizing" the hard parts. As the Star of Bethlehem video demonstrates, if we take the Bible quite literally and seriously, it holds up.
Colleen |
River
Registered user
Username: River
Post Number: 5823
Registered: 9-2006
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 29, 2009 - 10:54 pm: | |
As a never been, I had no trouble deciding that a star was probably a star.
But I have heard someone else say it was a host of Angels, so its not just an Adventist thing, or it could be that the person got lost and attended a Adventist church by mistake. 
I watched the videos though and was appreciative of them.
Thank you for them.
Like you, I like to study and read the Bible prayerfully.
River |
Martinc
Registered user
Username: Martinc
Post Number: 112
Registered: 9-2006
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 30, 2009 - 12:36 am: | |
Ok! With festivities done and relatives gone I can talk about the Bethlehem Star now. On Christmas day, my wife Sharon's parents were here for what was the nicest, most relaxed Christmas with them since we came out of Adventism. Christmas morning before opening gifts, we were going around the circle, each thanking Jesus for something. I told them I was thankful for Jesus showing us how real and powerful in history He is, as we can see in the Bethlehem Star, and I briefly described the film. So, my wife's mom says, "It's a company of angels, right?" I said, "No, the film makes a great case for real astronomical events using the best available evidence while holding close to scripture." I told them I wasn't dogmatic about it, but this was the best explanation I had seen. She appeared disappointed, and they didn't ask anything more about it.
Then tonight the Star sparked another discussion. My oldest son Nick rarely discusses issues of faith, even though he comes to church with us occasionally. At times he even seems hostile to Christianity, and I have been assuming he did not believe the Bible at all. While we were driving him home we mentioned the Bethlehem star and why the film was so moving to Sharon and I. He said he couldn't understand why it had any more relevance than any other obscure Christian relic from the past. So we told him how the Biblical prophecies of Jesus are so important to the Christian faith, and how our trust is given a boost when we see them fulfilled in both history and in the sky. We can now see the signs of His birth with free planetarium software on any computer. I told him why we trust the Bible as an ancient document and how the unity of the cosmos also testifies to one Creative Mind who made it all.
Nick then surprised me when he said, "It's not a rational problem I have with believing the Bible, because I do believe it. It's a non-rational part of me that has trouble believing happy endings, that it's too good to be true." So Sharon told him how we stop worrying about our "endings" because Jesus provides total forgiveness of our sins when we trust Him. He ensures our future, no matter how dark it looks now. Nick said he understands that. I could hardly believe my ears, but of course, we parents can be pretty dense sometimes. Now, as his thick-skulled, faith-impaired father speaking, I could say that his head knowledge needs to turn into regeneration, repentance, etc. But Someone keeps reminding me that I'm not in charge of my son's life, and what a relief to let go of that burden!
So, the message from the Star of Bethlehem is that at the beginning of time, our Lord Jesus predestined the positions and motions of every star and planet to provide signs at the appointed times and give us great confidence for the future. If I may be so bold, this Star, and all the stars, are genuine "lesser lights" to strengthen our faith, and remind us what else He has set in motion:
"Those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified."
Sounds like a happy ending to me. |
River
Registered user
Username: River
Post Number: 5824
Registered: 9-2006
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 30, 2009 - 6:54 am: | |
Martinc,
What I saw in your post here today, was a chance to witness to your son of your faith in Christ Jesus, and I say you planted a seed. It may be someone else who waters it, but it is a great privilege to be the sower.
I don't see you as a thick-skulled, faith impaired father, but a father who has faith.
I also have a son whom I have preached and witnessed too many times, but he just don't seem to want to turn toward God. I finally had to turn him over to the Lord.
But I feel very privileged to have sown the seeds of the surety of Gods word to him.
I have another son whom I had been praying for for 15 years, then one day I cried out to God, and said,"Oh God! Will I live to ever see him saved?" The Holy Spirit spoke these words to me, "Have faith in God."
Six or seven years later, I began to see change, and today he is a man of faith. Very much so.
When you have done all you can do to stand, then stand, and have faith in God.
River |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 10789
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 30, 2009 - 7:27 pm: | |
Martin, what wonderful news! Yes, we'll keep praying for your son. I can't explain it, but God does use those who are born again to be agents of faith and trust and intercession for our loved ones who are not.
And I love your "lesser lights". Yes! Those are TRUE lesser lights!
Colleen |
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