| Author | Message | ||
| Nowisee Registered user Username: Nowisee Post Number: 197 Registered: 5-2009 |
I just have to share a phone call I answered while at my parent's house recently. A friend of theirs called & wanted to speak to my Dad. He is a member of the sda church where they are members (they don't attend anymore due to their age, illness, etc). Told this person he wasn't at home & I'd have him return the call. This person then asked me if I could answer the question that he was going to ask my Dad--I said I'd try. (I know this person, but not well. Gung ho sda...) He asked "What do you think of the cross?" I said I thought it was extremely important. "Well, it is, but Sister White says we should just keep it in our heart and not have an outward display." (Apparently the pastor has put a cross at the front of the church behind the podium.) He became very angry & agitated and said, "It's breaking the 10 commandments--we are not to have any graven images!" (There are images in the stained glass in the front of the church, but this is apparently OK.) This guy is usually pretty quiet and calm and I couldn't believe the hate in his voice. He was furious! "We are upholding the 4th commandment--but not this one!" He then asked me if the church I attended had a cross in front(assuming it was sda). I said, "As a matter of fact it does." This made him more angry. He is going to move his membership. He is going to go to the conference office. I have never heard this guy angry, but this infuriated him. I was speechless at his tone. I discussed this with my sda family because I thought it was awful. Each one of them told me it was "Catholic" to have a cross in the church. I told them it was from EGW and not the Bible. I read them the commandment and told them it was about making & worshipping idols. They wondered if it would be worshipping the cross, because the congregation would kneel in prayer in front of it during church. I am dumbstruck by the hate I heard during the telephone conversation. More of the legacy of EGW! | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 10702 Registered: 12-2003  |
Oh, my goodness, Nowisee...I can understand what you went through. That sort of hate is almost inexplicable because it is not just "personal"—it's deeply spiritual, and it is directed against Truth and against God Himself. The sort of anger that generates that sort of hate has the spirit of Adventism behind it. I am so sorry...I can totally imagine how shredded you probably felt--and all because of a conversation that on the surface seems transitory. Praise God for Jesus and for the fact that He doesn't leave us when we face these assaults. He holds us together and keeps us planted in reality and truth. Colleen | ||
| Jrt Registered user Username: Jrt Post Number: 896 Registered: 10-2008 |
Nowisee, I am so sorry you had to experience such vehemency. Those types of conversations are SO unsettling. It always made me wonder while I was an Adventist why there was so much concern and talk about things that really didn't seem as important as they discussed it. We discussed everything around Jesus, but never His power or His provision or His Grace. They are talking about a cross, but not the Cross-bearer and Redeemer and Risen Lord. It is so very sad. Keri | ||
| Loneviking Registered user Username: Loneviking Post Number: 691 Registered: 7-2000 |
Folks like that caller are showing their ignorance of early church history and practice. The use of a cross;, the making of the sign of the cross; a church altar with a cross behind it, all were part of the earliest churches and their practices. Such practices are indeed 'catholic' with a little 'c'. | ||
| Clintonc Registered user Username: Clintonc Post Number: 52 Registered: 10-2007  |
That's really scary. I can say that I did see more of an acceptance of the cross as an adult when I was an SDA. Some SDA churches I went to had crosses displayed up front for things like Easter. Like Keri said, the Cross-bearer, and Redeemer is the One who stands above all idolatry. He is the one to be worshiped. A display of a cross is not worshiped. Why is there so much confusion on that with Adventists? I always understood, even as an Adventist, that a display of a cross helps me to understand Who is being worshiped and what was done so that I could worship! I really love the words of the song "How Deep The Fathers Love For Us". This phrase from that songs says much: How deep the Father's love for us, How vast beyond all measure That He should give His only Son To make a wretch His treasure The cross explains how deep that love is, and to display, or even to wear one, does not make it an idol, but leads me to worship. | ||
| Stevendi Registered user Username: Stevendi Post Number: 437 Registered: 10-2006 |
The sabbath is the sda's idol. They worship it, place it above the cross. When I mention Christ's sacrifice to sda's, they generally give tacit acknowledgement, then move on to the sabbath. The sabbath is proudly displayed on their billboards, it is central to the sda message. Christ is not displayed, nor is the cross, in front of the church. The clear message is "keeping the sabbath is a sign of our salvation, unless we do THAT, we will not be saved no matter who Jesus is or what He does." (Message edited by stevendi on November 25, 2009) | ||
| Hec Registered user Username: Hec Post Number: 804 Registered: 3-2009 |
A music teacher in a SDA school told me once that the Hymn "The Old Rugged Cross" was idolatrous and should not be sang with those words. He changed the words. Hec | ||
| Jackob Registered user Username: Jackob Post Number: 528 Registered: 7-2005 |
From my perspective, the cross is problematic for an historical or traditional adventist due to his revulsion against the Roman Catholic Church. These are people who know for sure that they are not roman catholics and they will not suffer to bear the mark of the beast (RCC) in any way shape or form. And for them, a cross is one of those forms in which the beasts leaves a mark on their worship. The irony is that while they reject any outward sign or symbol that may resemble an affiliation with the Roman Catholic Church, they don't care that their views are in essence the same as those hold by RCC. They share the same view, namely that the sanctification done by the work of the Holy Spirit qualifies them to stand before God at the judgment bar. While affirming that Jesus Christ died for their sins, the application of His blood in their life is dependent on their ability to live a holy and obedient life. If they obey until the end, they will be justified and will receive salvation. The gospel says exactly the opposite: because we have been justified we have peace with God and God will keep us safe until the end. He will not let any true believer to fall (John 10:28,29)because they had been bought with His precious blood which made a perfect and finished atonement for them (Hebrews 10:14, Colossians 2:13)leaving no room for future condemnation (Romans 8:1). If God is for us, if God justifies us, nobody can be against us, nobody can condemn us (Romans 8:31-39). In the cross we have complete salvation from God's wrath. It is not left to us the duty to persevere unto the end hoping that God will receive us in glory IF we have been faithful enough. Gabriel | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 3095 Registered: 10-2004  |
Yes, many SDAs say that the Cross is a "Catholic symbol" or a "pagan symbol." Jeremy | ||
| Dennis Registered user Username: Dennis Post Number: 1834 Registered: 4-2000  |
The traditional anti-Cross propaganda has been backfiring for Seventh-day Adventists in recent years. With dwindling accessions and record membership losses in North America, some larger SDA churches are now increasingly erecting crosses outside of their buildings. The College View SDA Church, here in Lincoln, Nebraska, has recently remodeled and added a huge cross outside near their front door. This is, of course, not the first time that Adventism is sending us mixed signals. Now they even claim to be mainline Protestants (the whore of Babylon). All in all, they are leaving no strategy untried in order to be seen as authentic believers in Jesus Christ. Dennis Fischer | ||
| Grace_alone Registered user Username: Grace_alone Post Number: 1604 Registered: 6-2006  |
My pastor always says that cults avoid having a cross in or around their church buildings because "they think they don't need the cross". Ain't that the truth! Leigh Anne | ||
| Bb Registered user Username: Bb Post Number: 608 Registered: 7-2004 |
Wow! I never thought of it that way, but cults DO reject the cross as the way to salvation. So to be repulsed by having a cross is to say "we don't want to be reminded of that, we have to do this on our own strength". But evil is very sly. The people who are afraid of having a cross really do think that it is a form of worshiping an image. I have never felt like I was doing that if I knelt in front of the cross. It is the one true symbol of our redemption, the empty cross! It has no image on it! It means Jesus is alive! | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 10716 Registered: 12-2003 |
Bb—you have articulated the essence of the deep deception within Adventism. The cross is only one example of the way they believe that they believe one thing, when in reality their conscious belief covers up the truth. As you said, Adventists who are afraid of the cross have been convinced and do believe that posting a cross is idolatry. But for a Christian, displaying a cross is not at all idolatry. In the same way, most Adventists never think that Satan bears their sins. Yet they all believe Satan is the scapegoat. The fact that their definitions don't call Satan the sin-bearer simply means they have been taught that the scapegoat is merely being punished for his own sin. Yet in reality, Adventist theology—with explanations straight from EGW—teaches that Satan bears the punishment for the sins of the saved. Just because Adventists don't believe it doesn't mean the doctrine doesn't exist. It just means they've been deceived so they don't have to THINK about the real meaning of their doctrines. Colleen | ||
| Hec Registered user Username: Hec Post Number: 816 Registered: 3-2009 |
Ok, this is somewhat confusing to me.
If the SDA organization believes ABC and I don't believe ABC, can it be said that I am being deceived? For me to be deceived, shouldn't I believe what they believe and are deceiving with? The doctrine might exists, but if I don't believe it, for me it's the same as if it doesn't exist. Hec | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 10718 Registered: 12-2003 |
The problem is, Hec, that if the doctrine exists but you don't believe it, it still colors what you believe in the big picture. For example, most Adventists don't believe Satan takes the punishment for their sins—but they DO believe that their sins are not actually done away with until they're placed on Satan's head and he carries them into the lake of fire. So, even if they don't believe Satan takes the punishment for their sins, they DO believe he cleanses heaven by carrying them away from heaven and being punished for causing them. This belief means that Adventists never ultimately believe they are responsible for their own sin. They believe, deep down, that Satan is the one who is ultimately responsible for their sin, and that he will "get it in the end" for being such a bad devil. This belief is completely unbiblical. We are fully responsible for our personal sin; unless we place our faith in the Lord Jesus, we will die eternally because of our sin. If we place our faith in the Lord Jesus, are sins are, at that moment washed away. They NEVER depend upon Satan carrying them anywhere, much less away from the presence of God. Moreover, to believe that Satan bears away the sins of the saved and is punished for causing them means that Jesus' work couldn't have been finished at the cross. So, no matter how an Adventists "believes" it, as long as he believes satan is the scapegoat, in practical reality he does not believe Jesus took responsibility for his sin, and ultimately he believes satan will be punished for causing his sin. Satan is NEVER punished for causing our sin. Jesus took full responsibility for our sin. Ditto for the cross belief. If an Adventist believes that displaying a cross is worshiping an image, that demonstrates that he doesn't experience the impact of knowing Jesus took his sin and bled on that cross for Him. If he did, he couldn't think of the the cross as a pagan symbol--or a "Catholic" symbol. It's a symbol of salvation. And consider the Sabbath. No Adventist would say they worship Sabbath. Yet they pretty much all would say Sabbath is eternal, sacred, and worthy of honor. Think about it...they actually treat Sabbath as a deity. Only God is eternal and worthy of honor. They believe (or fear) that to "give up" the Sabbath would result in the certain loss of their eternal life. Yet Romans 8 ends with the declaration that no created thing can separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus. Absolutely EVERYTHING besides God Himself is created. Time is created; days of the week are created. For Sabbath to be a "deal breaker" between us and God would mean that a created entity would have the power to separate us from the love of God. Adventists actually treat Sabbath as a god--almost as a fourth member of the Godhead. While they would never think they worship the Sabbath, they nevertheless treat the Sabbath with the deference, the honor, the homage, the reverence and the worship with which they would treat a god. Think of the most common Saturday greeting—even from the pulpit—in Adventism: "Happy Sabbath". Even their prayers are, "Thank you, God, for the Sabbath" where Christians' prayers would more likely be, "Thank you, Father, for Jesus." So, even though they don't think they BELIEVE the true meaning of Adventist doctrine, those doctrines shape their worldview and their sense of reality. It doesn't matter if I call a rose a violet; it is still a rose even if I firmly believe it's a violet. And even if I believe it's a violet, I will not be able to use it as I'd use a violet. The rose will be much bigger, more fragrant, and require a great deal more care and fertilizer than the violet would require. The fact that I say I don't believe it's a rose would not change how that rose functioned in my flower garden or in my bouquets. It would still be a rose—I alone would be deceived, believing I was dealing with a violet and confusing those to whom I talked about it. They would be imagining a small, dainty flower, and as I talked about the large, fragrant bloom I picked, they'd be confused. Deception is deception precisely because it masquerades as reality. Definitions do not determine meaning or function. They only serve to reveal or else to cover up the truth. Colleen | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 5778 Registered: 9-2006  |
Many years ago I left college with degree in hand, the studying was done, and I chose the field of endeavor I wanted. I opened a T.V. repair and sales shop. Now a T.V. is actually a pretty complicated device. More especially how color pictures are reproduced on a tube. In order to trouble shoot one of these devices, most times you would need the schematic diagram of that particular device, other wise, to open the back on a T.V. all you would be able to determine is that it contains a hopeless jumble of wires, transistors or tubes, resisters and so on. You might have symptoms of a vertical gone bad, or a horizontal gone bad, or if you remember, a picture that wouldn’t stay still. Without the schematic diagram with marked voltages you could not trace each stage of the circuit, even though you knew something was wrong. In addition to that, the color T.V, contained voltages that were downright dangerous, some of the voltages reach 27,000 volts, enough to stop your heart under the right conditions. Here on the forum, every once in a while we will receive stiff opposition to anyone who brings into question an Adventists salvation. Here on the forum, all the complicated and crazy making phases of Adventism is examined, such as the above. Our schematic is the bible, Adventism is the device in question, and the crazy making is the symptoms. Lets say we take our schematic in hand and examine the IJ, that is only one phase that is out of sync with the bible, there are other phases also, a vast array of complicated doctrine. Now in order to determine if it works, or in other words, does he or she need salvation, we need a common thread to make sense of this vast array of crazy making components. Not only that, its very serious and contains dangerous components when we go fooling with another’s beliefs, lest we bring judgment upon our own head. There is a common thread throughout Adventism that is a sure symptom. No matter all the complicated ins and outs of his complicated life, whether he believes in EGW, whether he believes all the IJ or only part, whether he believes in all the 28 fundamentals or only 16 of them. He may only believe in one of the 28, or even none at all. The question is, is there a common thread in any Adventist life that we can look at, and make sense of? Is he a true Christian or just a caricature of one? No doubt, he may, and in all the cases I am familiar with, be very religious, very pious. Paying strict attention to to religious matters. I cannot fault on clean living, they have no readily seen harmful habits such as smoking or drinking of alcohol. From the outside, everything looks good, regardless of what I think of an intake of nothing but vegetables, I cannot find anything specifically wrong with it. Just because he like carrots doesn’t mean his name is Bugs Bunny. There is a common thread, a common symptom whereby we may quickly determine that no matter what else he may believe or act upon, the symptom is the same throughout Adventism, and readily recognized in any Adventist. No matter his background, upbringing, habits, or creeds, there is a common thread associated with every Adventist. The commonality is easily recognizable, I don’t have to be a theologian, I can be well read or unread, but give me a few minutes with them and I can tell and by using only one scripture from the Bible, my schematic diagram. Here is that scripture. “But their minds were hardened; for until this very day at the reading of the old covenant the same veil remains unlifted, because it is removed in Christ. But to this day whenever Moses is read, a veil lies over their heart; but whenever a man turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away. Now the Lord is the Spirit; and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty” (2 Cor. 3:14-17). Notice when that scripture was written and what it says, “but to this very day.” Long after Pentecost is past and unto that very day it was written. To this very day, whenever Moses is read, a veil lies over their heart, covers their heart, blankets their heart. When they say ‘Happy Sabbath’ they are reading Moses, when they say, ‘tomorrow is preparation day, they are reading Moses, Ten Commandments? Moses. Not a service goes by when Moses is not read. You can’t have a discussion with an Adventist, where Moses is not read. Liberty? None. Whenever an Adventist turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away, and you have a ‘former Adventist just as sure as God made little apples. That veil is removed in Christ. Whenever Moses is read, a veil lies over their heart; but whenever a man turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away. If a man has not turned to the Lord, then we can consider the converse of the matter, the veil has not been taken away. The veil cannot be partially removed, but must be rent, torn in two, from top to bottom, there is no ‘part saved’ about it. We cannot determine the exact second when the veil is removed, but we can determine if a veil still exists, because he will read Moses every single time. If I solder a new transistor into a horizontal output, I cannot determine when the solder reaches the required degree of heat in order to make a solid connection, but I can, by looking at the picture, determine if a connection has been made, one second the picture is unintelligible, the next second the picture flashes into intelligible information. The scales will drop from an Adventist eyes the minute he turns to the Lord Jesus Christ, and turns away from reading Moses. You can call it anything you like, you can use big words like cognitive dissonance, but I think its really the Holy Spirits pleading to turn to Jesus, and away from reading Moses. You can try to point out pertinent scripture to them, but they will blow it off as if it don’t exist, because they are reading Moses, and just as the Bible tells us, the veil remains, and unless, and until they turn to the Lord, they cannot be saved. Jesus is the only name under heaven whereby anyone can be saved, be it Adventist, JW, or the soccer mom next door. Anyone who tries’s to enter the sheep fold any other way is a thief and a liar. They try to force their way into the sheep fold by reading Moses, declaring the Sabbath every way but Sunday, but it just won’t work. So there is a recognizable thread that winds its way through all the crazy making, and we can see this readily, no matter how they try to act just like a Christian, no matter the parallel language they use, the reading of Moses will come through loud and clear and it easy to tell whether the veil remains. River | ||
| Jrt Registered user Username: Jrt Post Number: 898 Registered: 10-2008 |
Thank you River and Colleen. So interesting the bit of "aha" I got while reading your post, Colleen. I already was aware of the SDA understanding of the sins placed on Satan at the end of time and figured it was heresy ... but for some reason I needed a deeper understanding ... I went to Revelation 20 and reread the chapter. I kept waiting to read how satan was punished for deceiving us or some such thing ... Rev. 20:10, says, "And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever." (NIV) Anyways, nowhere in scripture is there anything that says Satan pays for our sins ... Still cogitating on Rev. 20. I know we have reviewed that before ... I need things repeated a few times before they become solidly founded. River, great analogy you have used. As always right on. Thanks! Keri | ||
| Dennis Registered user Username: Dennis Post Number: 1836 Registered: 4-2000 |
Well stated, Colleen! Dennis Fischer | ||
| Nowisee Registered user Username: Nowisee Post Number: 199 Registered: 5-2009 |
Wow! Thank You, God for the people on this forum and the chance that we have of being "re-taught" by Godly people. I need to read C & R's comments above several times, digesting all the levels of meaning and their implications. So well explained. Deception is so deceiving! Adventists have pictures of Jesus and use His name, yet...Well, it helps me to stop and think that the LDS organization puts the name of Jesus right in their title, yet they are teaching a whole false system. It takes a while to untangle the complex web of deceit that for many of us is generational. The person of the phone call is a kind, hard-working, gentle person. I didn't take it as a personal attack, but it grieved and astounded me to hear the vitrial against Christ's cross. And I thought again "What kind of legacy did this'prophet' leave our former organization?? Fear, anger, believing in a created Jesus, suspiciousness of the Body of Christ, sexual pain, arrogance, and denigration of the Holy Scriptures to name a few. When I mention to my family members that SDA teaches a created Jesus, they say they don't believe that. But, they do (kind of, maybe) believe He is Michael the Archangel--and the logic stops there. Thank God He is the One that is in control and is the Great Veil Ripper! And to a person, whenever we try to discuss the difference between the Bible & egw, and our family/friends see we might be 'drifting away', what is the response? (All together, now) "What about the Sabbath?!" | ||
| Christo Registered user Username: Christo Post Number: 189 Registered: 2-2008 |
It comes to mind that sda is trying to sew a new patch onto the temple veil, and trying to undo what Christ has done. You cannot pour new wine into old wineskins, nor sew new clothe onto an old garment. Both the temple, and the experience of man has been totally remodeled my the master carpenter himself, Jesus Christ. Chris | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 10722 Registered: 12-2003 |
I love that, Nowisee—"The Great Veil Ripper"!! Colleen |
