| Author | Message | ||
| Philharris Registered user Username: Philharris Post Number: 1904 Registered: 5-2007  |
Interesting question about this verse concerning our spirit: Or do you suppose it is to no purpose that the Scripture says, "He yearns jealously over the spirit that he has made to dwell in us"? (James 4:5 ESV) Does anybody have any idea what Scripture James is quoting? Fearless Phil | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 7734 Registered: 3-2004  |
My NKJV says in the study notes: James provbably does not have any specific OT reference in mind; instead he is speaking of a general concept in Scripture. The jealous yearning in this verse most likely refers to God's jealousy for his people , a concept prevalent in the OT (Ex 20:5; 34:14; ps 78:58; 79:5) and an idea that fits the context. Diana L | ||
| Doc Registered user Username: Doc Post Number: 474 Registered: 2-2003  |
I checked a couple of commentaries and they basically said the same thing. No specific OT Scripture can be identified of which this is a direct quotation. As well as those mentioned by Diana, the creation of man in Gen 2:7 may also be in mind. Adrian | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 10665 Registered: 12-2003  |
So interesting. It is not primarily our mortal bodies God yearns over--it is our essence, our immaterial spiritual essence. He knows He will redeem our bodies, but without "spirit", we would be like animals, and they are not intimate with God. Colleen | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 7737 Registered: 3-2004 |
I like that Colleen, "He yearns over our spirit". A non physical part of our body!!! WOW!!! How awesome is that. Diana L | ||
| Hec Registered user Username: Hec Post Number: 769 Registered: 3-2009 |
So "He yearns over our breath?" How strange. With so much air around, He yearn over my breath! Hec | ||
| Martinc Registered user Username: Martinc Post Number: 102 Registered: 9-2006 |
There is an excellent discussion of James 4:5 on the PRECEPT AUSTIN website. They call it "A difficult passage to translate & interpret". The Bible translations listed are nearly evenly divided on whether "spirit" is capitalized or not. This makes a major difference in what the text means, our spirits or the Spirit which indwells us. Also, is James talking about the problem of our jealousy, or God's jealous ownership of our spirits? Both are very Biblical ideas, but opposites. However, the ESV Study Bible states that their translation, quoted by Phil, fits the context best. The context is about friendship with the world vs. God. Idolatry of the world draws God's jealous desire for the new spirit life He gave us. James' OT quote appears to be either a paraphrase of a text, or a combination of texts. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 10671 Registered: 12-2003 |
Thank you, Martin. Yes, the context does support the idea that God is jealous for our "spirit"--this goes right along with the 2nd Commandment where God says,
God is jealous for us—for our loyalty and for our Life. Colleen | ||
| Asurprise Registered user Username: Asurprise Post Number: 1101 Registered: 7-2007 |
Hec, Adventists like to point out that the word for "spirit" comes from the Greek "pneuma." They use that to say that it simply means air or breath; using examples such as pneumatic drill and pneumonia. The trouble is, the word "Spirit" in the words Holy Spirit, is also Pneuma in the Greek! Using that reasoning, Adventists are calling the Holy Spirit, "Holy Breath!" Of course Adventist pastors and evangelists are careful NOT to point that out!!!!! Even Adventists know that the Holy Spirit is God!!! By interpreting "spirit" as "breath," Adventists would also have to interpret 1st Corinthians 2:11 to say "For who can tell what a man is thinking except the man's own BREATH?" !!!!! (Message edited by Asurprise on November 18, 2009) | ||
| Hec Registered user Username: Hec Post Number: 776 Registered: 3-2009 |
Asurprise, I have no problem with spirit. I know that it is the part of man where the Holy Spirit lives and that it goes on to God when a believer dies or to Hades when a non-believer dies. I'm clear here. What I am not clear is on the idea that it is immortal. That when the whole world is destroy and a new earth and new heaven are recreated, the spirit of the non-believers will be living forever in torment. They explain that death is separation, and I agree to a point. But death is also destruction, non-existence to the wicked after the judgment and eternal punishment, not eternal punishing. They say that a car after is totaled, is still a car. Well, when the metal is melted is not a car anymore. There come a time when the original elements are back to "original" and there is no way that it can be called a car. It's not just that is not a functioning car anymore. It is not a car at all. For the wicked to be living in torment and called that death, is a twist of words. Besides, all life is supported by God. Without God giving life there is no life. The saved will have eternal life, but it's still God's life. we won't have intrinsic life. Neither the wicked will have intrinsic life. God would have to give them eternal life just for the purpose of punishing them. You can call death what you want, separation, or what you have, but if they are suffering, and feeling, and in torment, then they are somehow alive. If we say that when Jesus comes he will give resurrected bodies to everybody and those bodies won't die, then how can we say that that is the second death? That will be just a different kind of eternal life. I know that I deviated from asking the questions, but I don't intent to be dogmatic. Just expressing the way I see it so far. Hec | ||
| Asurprise Registered user Username: Asurprise Post Number: 1102 Registered: 7-2007 |
Hec, Yes, I know that you don't have any problem with "spirit." I said what I did because I saw an excellent opportunity to point out to any Adventists reading this that their interpretation of "spirit" doesn't make any sense! I don't know what to believe about hell yet either. | ||
| Doc Registered user Username: Doc Post Number: 476 Registered: 2-2003 |
If anyone is interested, I have written an article about this on my blogg: http://athb4hu.wordpress.com/sda-studies-v/ In the Biblical languages, eternal life does not just mean eternal existence, death does not mean cessation of being, and destruction does not mean annihilation. As to pneuma meaning breath, it is also problematic when we consider that God himself is spirit (John 4: 24), and also angels are spirits (Heb 1: 14), and so are demons (Mark 1: 23-26). Same word, so it doesn't work. God bless, Adrian | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 10685 Registered: 12-2003 |
Adrian, that is an amazing and wonderful study. Would you be willing for us to post it also on our Studies page on www.LifeAssuranceMinistries.org? Let me know what you think...it is comprehensive, detailed, and addresses the issue from every imaginable angle. Thank you SO much for writing it! Colleen | ||
| Hec Registered user Username: Hec Post Number: 790 Registered: 3-2009 |
Hey Doc, your study looks good. May I make a suggestion? For some of us getting into years, our eyes are getting old and it's very hard to read the light font in your Web site. Would it be possible to change the color of the font to something more readable? This is not being ungrateful for your work. It's just trying to make it easier for me to read it. Thanks, Doc Hec | ||
| Skeeter Registered user Username: Skeeter Post Number: 464 Registered: 12-2007 |
Hec, maybe I am getting old too. :-/ This is what worked for me. I copy and pasted the study and then enlarged the type and printed it out. I plan to read it this evening and hopefully find some answers. Your whole site looks very interesting Doc, so I put it into my "favorites" so I can find it later. Francie Francie | ||
| Dennis Registered user Username: Dennis Post Number: 1831 Registered: 4-2000  |
Phil, The phrase that James quotes in James 4:5 is a composite of general OT teaching--not a direct quote. Dennis Fischer | ||
| Philharris Registered user Username: Philharris Post Number: 1909 Registered: 5-2007 |
Dennis, I am ok with the idea that it is a commposite. So, what are some suggested passages that make up this composite? Fearless Phil | ||
| Dennis Registered user Username: Dennis Post Number: 1832 Registered: 4-2000 |
Phil, "Scripture says" is a common NT way of introducing an OT quote (John 19:37; Rom. 4:3; 9:17;10:11;11:2;Gal. 4:30; I Tim. 5:18). In the case of James 4:5 as I mentioned earlier, however, a direct quote is not found in the OT. Thus, it is a composite of general OT teaching. James' point is that an unbelieving person's spirit (inner person) is bent on evil (cf. Gen. 6:5;8:21; Prov. 21:10;Eccl. 9:3;Jer. 17:9; Mark 7:21-23). The only ray of hope in man's spiritual darkness is the sovereign grace of God, which alone can rescue man from his propensity or tendency to lust for evil things. Truly, our great God regards "jealously" His bestowed immortal, spirit image in each of us. Since we are the crowning jewels of creation, it is not difficult to understand how God frowns upon the sinful acts of man. Moreover, someday in glory, we may have the opportunity to personally visit with our guardian angel. Seventh-day Adventists like to boldly and proudly proclaim that they are staunch creationists, but are they really what they claim to be? For example, SDAs do not believe in the separate spirit (soul) entity in man. All they really claim to have is a physical body. Interestingly, devout evolutionists wholeheartedly agree with our SDA friends that human beings have no separate spiritual entity (an immaterial side) and die just like animals. Sadly, the SDA view, in regard to the nature of man, affirms the evolutionary (Darwinist) theory that man is simply an animal (without a dualistic nature of body and soul). Of course, atheists and agnostics also agree with the SDA view of man. With merely the momentary quick-fix of annihilation awaiting them for a profane life, many are emboldened and tempted to act just like animals as well. Dennis Fischer | ||
| Doc Registered user Username: Doc Post Number: 478 Registered: 2-2003 |
Colleen, Thanks. Sure you can use the study, if you think it would be of help. I would be honoured. Would you like me to send a Word copy by e-mail? Thanks Francie. Hec, I'm afraid I am getting a bit older too, which means I am increasingly illiterate as regards new technology. If you would like a Word copy, just send me an e-mail (or anyone else too): athb4hu@yahoo.co.uk God bless, Adrian | ||
| Philharris Registered user Username: Philharris Post Number: 1911 Registered: 5-2007 |
Adrian, I value you insights and would like a copy in word format. You can find my email address in my profile which you can access in one of my postings in the members section. Thanks, Fearless Phil |
