| Author | Message | ||
| Philharris Registered user Username: Philharris Post Number: 1899 Registered: 5-2007  |
Here are a couple of interesting verses: The Lord spoke to Moses, saying, "Avenge the people of Israel on the Midianites. Afterward you shall be gathered to your people." (Num. 31:1,2 ESV) Some question to SDA theologians would be: Just who was Moses with when he died? Who are these people he would be with when he died? If we are only material and our physical body returns to the earth at death, how can we be with anybody? Why did Moses express no fear upon learning about his impending death when those who believe the doctrine of investigative judgment are scared to death this is something they might not be able to pass? Why does the SDA church use the expression “assurance of salvation” when they don’t have any? Fearless Phil | ||
| Animal Registered user Username: Animal Post Number: 705 Registered: 7-2008  |
you actually believe an SDA theologian has the courage to answer those questions?. You have great faith o fearless one. ...Animal | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 7726 Registered: 3-2004  |
Phil, you should go to CARM and ask that question. That is where the SAD (not a typo) theologians are. Diana L | ||
| 8thday Registered user Username: 8thday Post Number: 1332 Registered: 11-2007  |
I was just reading there the other day.. it says Moses was not weak or frail at all.. God just decided his time here was up. They went up the mountain and that was it. The term.. gathered to his people.. is also used to refer to other patriarchs who died also isn't it? That really caught my attention too.. I guess sda's just think.. the bones.. all buried together - at least that's what I thought. But no one else was buried up there with Moses.. so that's a little probelmatic. | ||
| Hec Registered user Username: Hec Post Number: 761 Registered: 3-2009 |
"gather to his people." The explanation is that this is an expression to denote death. Instead of saying he died, the expression is, "he gathered to his people." It's the same as when we say, "he kicked the bucket." It's not intended to be a literal expression, but a symbolic expression meaning death. Hec | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 10656 Registered: 12-2003  |
True--but they never think through where that expression comes from. If death is nonexistence (and the Amazing Facts Bible study on death says, "Spirits of dead people do not exist"), then "gathered to his people" is a completely nonsensical phrase. Of course, "kick the bucket" is a bit vague, too--but "gathered to his people" has a clear and specific connotation. Colleen | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 5738 Registered: 9-2006  |
Matthew 17:3 And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him. Therefore, it seems logical to me, that God did just as he said,and gathered Moses to his people. Of course, as Phil says, if your going to understand Adventist, you got to forget about logic. It being a matter of expression doesn't make sense to me in light of Moses appearing to talk with Jesus about his upcoming demise, or whatever they talked about. Amazing facts generally turn out to be amazing stupidity. River | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 5739 Registered: 9-2006 |
And you just can't fix stupid. | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 3079 Registered: 10-2004  |
I just looked at all of the Bible passages that use that phrase recently, as I am compiling a list of passages that teach about death/spirits/souls/hell. Here are all of the passages which use that phrase:
Sondra, you said: "That really caught my attention too.. I guess sda's just think.. the bones.. all buried together - at least that's what I thought. But no one else was buried up there with Moses.. so that's a little probelmatic." Also, notice that with Abraham and Jacob, they were "gathered to their people" before they were buried (months before in the case of Jacob). Also, God says that Aaron died and was gathered to his people. Thus, it is not just a symbolic expression. What God says is absolute truth. Jeremy (Message edited by Jeremy on November 16, 2009) | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 10663 Registered: 12-2003 |
So interesting, Jeremy. Thanks for sharing the compiled texts. I'd never thought about this phrase deeply before; we have to understand the plain meaning of the words. Words mean things—and if we alter the definitions, that alteration doesn't make the altered interpretation "truth". Truth is truth; we have a choice whether to believe the words of Scripture or not. Colleen | ||
| Hec Registered user Username: Hec Post Number: 767 Registered: 3-2009 |
I guess taking "gather to his people" as "kick the bucket" won't work. There are several of the above verses that say "breath his last and die, and was gathered to his people." In that case it would say, "breath his last and die, and die." So SDAs are out of luck trying to explain it away. Hec | ||
| Believer247 Registered user Username: Believer247 Post Number: 85 Registered: 3-2009 |
Thank you Jeremy for posting these verses. I have read all of them many times as sda and because of the veil, I never understood or even thought about what they are saying. It never ceases to amaze me daily how the Bible is so clear now that the veil has been lifted. | ||
| Skeeter Registered user Username: Skeeter Post Number: 453 Registered: 12-2007 |
This is so interesting... :-) I dont remember EVER seeing any of those verses before. Either I didnt see them, or they were explained away by the SDA organization so we wouldnt give them much thought.. Francie | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 3080 Registered: 10-2004 |
By the way, being "gathered" to their people refers to being carried by the angels to Sheol/Hades (cf. Luke 16:22). Jeremy | ||
| Psalm107v2 Registered user Username: Psalm107v2 Post Number: 490 Registered: 10-2008  |
Jeremy, Thanks for the compilation, it will be a help in a project I am working on. It is true that families often had their bones interned together and I'm sure SDAs would try and use that as the reasoning but it does not wash. As I've been studying this topic one thing that jumped out to me is when David's first son with Bathsheba died David said in 2 Samuel 12:22 "While the child was still alive, I fasted and wept. I thought, 'Who knows? The LORD may be gracious to me and let the child live.' But now that he is dead, why should I fast? Can I bring him back again? I WILL GO TO HIM, but he will not return to me." This cannot be just bones being buried together. What real comfort is that, especially if "the dead know not anything"? David knew he would see his son one day in Paradise/Abraham's bosom. What a joy that even after he sinned he repented and knowing his right standing with God he knew that he that he had the hope of heaven. For me this is one of the reasons why David was called a man after God's own heart Enoch | ||
| Skeeter Registered user Username: Skeeter Post Number: 457 Registered: 12-2007 |
I am thoroughly confused by "Paradise/ Abrahams bosom /Sheol" Do we go to "Heaven" at our death to be with the Lord or not ? Or do we go to that in between place and wait until the Lords return ? I have heard some say that we go to Sheol and wait and that we can see those in torment in Hell across "the great gulf" Is Sheol/ Abrahams bosom/Paradise, a place where only those who died BEFORE the ressurrection of Christ went to wait until THAT time ? or are they still there, will we be there until the 2nd coming ? If we go to Sheol... and we can see those who are in torment, that certainly is not my idea of Heaven. And which ever is correct.... how do I PROVE it to anyone from the Bible ? I am confused by this. I find it hard to believe that God would have us die and be in a place for eons of time watching those in torment. I have always believed (hoped) that it was only a parable and not a factual place. I also have always had a problem with believing that those who do not accept Christ will be in torment throughout all eternity. That would be giving those people "eternal life" also... in a torment of Hell, but still "life". I hope I am correct in believing that when we die we do go to be with the Lord (in Heaven) and that those who are not saved will (where ever their souls go at the time of death) at some point be totally destroyed... doesnt the Bible say somewhere that they will be destroyed both body and soul ? That is not "eternal" punishment... but after having received a just punishment be destroyed both body and soul... otherwise "SIN" would never come to a complete and final end. And that does not make sensde to me at all. I know which ever way God has planned is the best way even though we (I) may not understand it now,,, but I cant see our loving Creator torturing anyone through all eternity... a just punishment ,, yes, and I am sure there are those who deserve to be punished longer and more severely than others,,, but "eternity" is a very, very long time. I went to a church a few weeks ago and something was said about going to "Abrahams Bosom" and I had to bite my tongue to keep from speaking up, because I knew that I couldnt object and not know myself if my objection was valid or how to prove it. It just makes me sad to think of anyone being kept "alive" for the sole purpose of being tortured for all eternity. I just cant think of our God doing that. Am I wrong ? | ||
| Dennis Registered user Username: Dennis Post Number: 1825 Registered: 4-2000  |
Good conclusions, Enoch! Dennis Fischer | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 5747 Registered: 9-2006 |
Think of what you just said Enoch, I found my sisters bible, all dogeared and marked up, it looked like evidence that she had been with the Lord at times in her so young life. She cannot return to me, but I will go to her, what a wonderful thought that I will see my baby sister again. It is so hard to bear when some one takes the life of the younger, yet we can rest in Gods justice. I still today cannot feel mercy for the man that killed her, but God knows we are but dust. I am thinking of the loved one that was taken so recently from you, and have you and your family on my heart tonight. Thank you for the scripture that brings to mind the fact that we will go to them. River | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 5748 Registered: 9-2006 |
Skeeter, I think you have a wrong idea about what scripture actually teaches. Not a wrong heart, just a weak Bible theology. Just ask God to guide you in his word, and over time, it will all come straight. But you can't expect to attain sound Bible doctrine just overnight after being immersed in a completely false religion and nobody expects that of you. It will come more clear as you study his word with a thirst for knowledge that comes from God. River | ||
| Dennis Registered user Username: Dennis Post Number: 1826 Registered: 4-2000 |
Skeeter, Hell is forever due to the fact that the unconfessed and unforgiven sins of the ungodly are FOREVER before the Father. Most of what we know about hell was taught by Jesus himself. On this important topic, we can truly trust the words coming directly from the lips of Jesus. Our emotions or sentiments should not determine our theology. After all, who are we to question God about anything? From merely a human perspective, it is noteworthy that it takes alot of faith to believe that heaven is eternal as well. Human beings have a tendency to believe what they wish to be true. On the other hand, why not just believe what God says instead? Dr. R. C. Sproul uses the apt illustration of placing Jesus and Hitler on opposite ends of a room. Now let's suppose that the finest believer the world has ever known comes into the same room. Where should we place this saint? Closer to Jesus or closer to Hitler or in the center between Jesus and Hitler? Actually, argues Dr. Sproul, the best saint the world has ever known should be placed very close to Hitler--almost hugging him. Why? Because of the holiness of God. Sin is a big deal to God ("cosmic treason and a crime" says Sproul), and our sins create a vast divide from God's holiness. Indeed, there is a great chasm between our holy God and the sinner. Only His free grace allows us to be granted a full pardon for our offenses against Him. Recognizing the holiness of God helps us to see how amazing His grace really is. Such a theology gives us a far greater doxology as well. Moreover, we often hear of some murderer who is sentenced to several consecutive life sentences for multiple killings. Our earthly justice is really a joke because the convicted person will never live long enough to suffer for multiple killings. In stark contrast, however, under God's justice system, Hitler will actually receive six million consecutive life sentences as merely a beginning of his woes. Anything less for Hitler would not be fair nor just. Under the JW/SDA view of annihilation, Adolf Hitler dies in the arms of his mistress and a short while later he gets zapped instantly. Such a quick-fix would be most unfair and unjust. It would surely be the easy way out. Only God can bring justice to evil with an eternal hell. Anything less would not suffice nor be true justice. The biblical truth is that we all deserve eternal punishment due to our original sin condition. Let us thank God anew for His amazing, sovereign grace. Annihilation would not the ultimate punishment. Truly, it would be the END of punishment. The ungodly in hell would like for annihilationism to be true. Finally, traditionalism (not conditionalism) coheres well with other biblical teachings. Dennis Fischer |
