| Author | Message | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 5713 Registered: 9-2006  |
What I don't understand at all is how you people could be an Adventist for 40 years and not know what they believe or even what they mean? What did you do? Sleep through it? Am I missing something, or misunderstanding something here? I've been wanting to ask this question for two days now, and I have to ask. As for the Christian hope, the Bible meaning of that is not the word 'hope' as used in Adventism, like I hope I will make a living next week, or I hope my car starts, or I hope Jesus will not find fault. What the word hope means in the context of the way it is spoken in the Bible is really a looking forward, because our salvation has been made sure by his blood, complete, and guaranteed by the Spirit of God who dwells in us. The Adventist 'hope' is haphazard and not at all like the Christian hope. Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen. Hebrews 11:2 For by it the men of old received divine approval. (RSV) Now look at the context of that, 'Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for. (Or in other words looked forward to. If we only had hope in the way it is used by Adventist, as evidenced in the investigative judgment debolical we wouldn't have assurance. If I have assurance then there ain't no maybe's about it is there? I think many formers need to change their thought pattern when they read the word hope in the Bible and get out of the investigative judgment pattern of thinking. IMHO. River Now that I have raised a stink here, I think I will head on over to facebook and see what I can get started.  | ||
| Hec Registered user Username: Hec Post Number: 725 Registered: 3-2009 |
My attempt to answer:
Hec | ||
| Helovesme2 Registered user Username: Helovesme2 Post Number: 2273 Registered: 8-2004  |
Well said Hec! When those glasses come off it's a whole new world, but not always one that 'makes sense' to a brain that is used to the filter. | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 5714 Registered: 9-2006 |
I'm chasing you all over the place Mary. I tried to answer you on facebook and you had done went. I said Howdy, but pooft, you were gone. | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 5715 Registered: 9-2006 |
Thanks for explaining that Hec, I was about to go nuts trying to figure that out. | ||
| Helovesme2 Registered user Username: Helovesme2 Post Number: 2274 Registered: 8-2004 |
Strange, River. As soon as I posted to you you 'went offline'. I wonder what's up with that? | ||
| Pegg Registered user Username: Pegg Post Number: 553 Registered: 2-2006 |
Of course you don't understand, River. It never happened to you, did it? Let me give you an analogy from my experience...I grew up in a NH household that had a woodstove. I watched my parents light the stove every day for 15 years. However, to this day, while I know all of the moves to make; I know how to lay the paper and the wood, I know to open the vent, I am not able to successfully light the woodstove. (It is most embarrassing!  ) Others' experiences may have been different, but this is the situation I found myself in in regards to the beliefs of SDA 4 years ago when God laid claim to my life. I have been faced with identifying and sorting through underlying beliefs I am often not even aware of in the process of adopting Jesus as the only fully sufficient source of my salvation.Well good, River! Glad you could get that off your chest.  What you say may be true, but it does not fit the context of the question I asked in the OP. My friend's husband had just died. She wasn't hoping for a new car! When she said she was glad to have a hope, she didn't mean that she was glad she was unsure of her justification. It's one thing to base conclusions on assumptions, but they need to fit the context. This doesn't. This IS the context in which my friend used the word "hope". The statement I am talking about is ALWAYS used in this kind of looking forward context. I don't understand your what you mean about haphazard, but you're right the next part. SDA cannot find a hope in the assurance of completed, guaranteed salvation. They don't believe in it. You are correct, River, that SDA cannot read Hebrews 11:1-2 as a promise of salvation by faith alone that has been won for us through grace alone and that is a done deal for the believer. You're right that this is rendered impossible by their belief in IJ. That's right, a done deal. No strings attached. I'm not quite sure where this came from. The opening question of this thread was about how SDAs use the phrase, "I'm SO glad we have a hope." I also asked how Formers remember using it when they were SDA. The majority consensus, certainly not unanimous, seems to be that it has something to do with SDAs misunderstanding the Christian position and/or thinking that their own positions on the state of the dead, resurrection and second coming are superior to those of regular normal Christians. Thanks for your comments. I just fail to understand what this has to do with the way Formers think about IJ. Pegg (Message edited by pegg on November 08, 2009) | ||
| Pegg Registered user Username: Pegg Post Number: 554 Registered: 2-2006 |
River, Hec has posted while I was. I agree with what he has said. Have a little patience with us. Pegg | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 10613 Registered: 12-2003  |
Well, to be honest, River's question did make me reflect on the fact that my perception of "hope" was pretty foggy as an Adventist. It was a paradigm shift for me when, after being out of Adventism for a few years, I finally heard the biblical term "hope" described as an absolute certainty. As an Adventist, I understood "hope" to be a "maybe", as in "we hope we will be saved..." When I think about what "hope" meant to me, the thing that comes to my mind is the hymn Wayne Hooper wrote in 1962 for the next General Conference session: We Have This Hope We have this hope that burns within our hearts, Hope in the coming of the Lord. We have this faith that Christ alone imparts, Faith in the promise of His Word. We believe the time is here, When the nations far and near Shall awake, and shout, and sing Hallelujah! Christ is King! We have this hope that burns within our hearts, Hope in the coming of the Lord. (And now, I want to shout, "What faith in what promise in God's Word do you have??") So, yeah--I'd says that the "Second Coming" was "the hope" that I understood us to have... Colleen | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 5716 Registered: 9-2006 |
Pegg, Hecs answer was sufficient and I thanked him for the explanation. River | ||
| Jrt Registered user Username: Jrt Post Number: 879 Registered: 10-2008 |
River, You nailed it. Tonight I talked with my pastor about the words in SDAism and the words in Christianity and how the words are the same, but the meanings are totally different. I had the same reaction as Colleen. You caused me to think, River, and I appreciate it. I will definitely have a different mental picture of hope after reading your post. Hope in SDAism was like a 3 year old squinting it's eyes and repeating over and over, "I hope, I hope, I hope" as if saying it enough times will miraculously get them the gift at Christmas time they wish for. In SDAism the word "hope" was for me intertwined with knowing I was worshiping on the Biblical Sabbath and therefore I (said pridefully) had a hope that that worshiping on Sabbath would somehow "endear" me to God and I would have a better "in" to heaven. So my "hope" was in the Sabbath not in Jesus. It is in Jesus and Him alone now (John 5:24; 1 John 5:11-13). My "hope" is rock solid now. Thanks for the defining of words, River. Keri | ||
| Martin Registered user Username: Martin Post Number: 99 Registered: 11-2008 |
Not sure if I'll be able to explain anything clearly but here's my attempt Please, correct me if I'm wrong. From my newer, far from perfect and ever growing understanding of the Bible, I see the Christian Hope that Paul talks about as the "looking forward" to the day in which God will give us new living bodies that are not subject to sin and death, wether we are alive or not when Jesus comes back. Our salvation is now sure and certain in Jesus' righteousness, so that is not a question to "worry" about. And we can look forward to that day and trust that God will keep His promise because, looking back, we know that He is faithful and someone who can deliver. With respect to the SDA understanding of that "hope"... I can not say what that woman might have been thinking, but I am not very sure either if I had a very defined hope before. I knew God was there and saw Him working different times in my life, but never had a real understanding of what His grace meant. So, if I had any hope, I think it was more related with the possibility of God helping me to conquer certain issues in my life. And, maybe in a more fuzzy way, it's a "hope" that if by the time you died you were faithful enough and, for whatever reason, God decided that you were A-OK then you would be saved... How many times I heard people saying that God looked at your heart and what He valued was your "general tendency" towards Him and doing what He commanded? I remember thinking that, well, I knew I sinned here and there, but that in general terms I wanted to do God's will... So, in some way, I "hoped" that I would be fine with Him. But where's the certainty in that way of thinking? There's none at all. Thanks to God that all depends on Jesus righteousness. The only thing we can do is to continue trusting that He will continue the work that He started, being sure that He doesn't leave half-finished works. | ||
| Jrt Registered user Username: Jrt Post Number: 880 Registered: 10-2008 |
Martin, I resonated with what you wrote:
That was me, too. I think in SDAism "hope" is always used as a verb, even though it is spoken as a noun. Now as a Christian "hope" is a noun, period. A rock, solid, non-shifting noun. A noun that describes the person of Jesus Christ, Who is the concrete foundation of my salvation. My "hope" is Him. It is a "surety" as River explains above, using Hebrews. Keri | ||
| Animal Registered user Username: Animal Post Number: 703 Registered: 7-2008  |
I "hope" we have popcorn and rootbeer in heaven. | ||
| Christo Registered user Username: Christo Post Number: 182 Registered: 2-2008 |
I have never heard the second stanza of, We have this hope, sung in sda, it is as follows. We are united in Jesus Christ our Lord. We are united in His love. Love for the waiting people of the world, People who need our Savior’s love. Soon the heav’ns will open wide, Christ will come to claim His bride, All the universe will sing Hallelujah! Christ is King! We have this hope, this faith, and God’s great love, We are united in Christ. I think it is because their is too much talk about uniting in Christ, Christ"s love, and Christ being our savior. All of which do not resonate with self justification through the law. Uniting in Christ has too much in common with believers, thus nullifying their distinction of being the remnant church, or the true church. My hope is in Jesus, not myself. Chris | ||
| Pegg Registered user Username: Pegg Post Number: 555 Registered: 2-2006 |
I think it is because I never heard anything but first and last stanzas sung in SDA. Hurry up, let's sing and pray so we can get to the sermon. That's where the "meat" is. We came here to learn! I used to think this was normal. When I first joined my new Church Family I told my husband that I had never heard so much singing or praying in my entire life. But I Digress... Pegg | ||
| Pegg Registered user Username: Pegg Post Number: 556 Registered: 2-2006 |
Animal - I think you'll like whatever we have. Pegg | ||
| Pegg Registered user Username: Pegg Post Number: 557 Registered: 2-2006 |
Hi Keri! I hear it was a warm day in Michigan yesterday, and I was sending up praise on your behalf. Right here I think you are touching on what haunted me about what my friend said. To her, SDA "hope" was clearly something she held dear and it was something other Christians didn't have. Whatever this SOMETHING is, it is no wonder they are threatened by the prospect of giving it up. Many of us DO have SDAs in our lives that we interact with sometimes or everyday. The reason I wanted to start this discussion is not to once again get into a judgmental discussion about who's right and who's wrong about hope. I think Scripture settles that one pretty clearly. Rather, I think it's useful to consider what the SDAs in our lives may perceive they are being confronted with giving up. Yes, I know we have just been there. Yes, I know we "gave it up" and the Replacement is so much greater! But this is what we know from OUR perspective. Once you discover how amazing the Replacement is, it's very hard to have patience with one who is fearful of trying Him. This discussion reminds me that God has had patience with every one of us. He wooed us and called us and enabled us... He used loving faith-filled people who looked at us and also saw the "Assurance of things hoped for". Pegg | ||
| Angelcat Registered user Username: Angelcat Post Number: 139 Registered: 11-2008 |
As an SDA,I thought anyone had hope who lived up to all the light they had. And boy was I jealus of people with less light! Frankly,I didn't find "the hope" all that comforting. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 10621 Registered: 12-2003 |
Sometimes I think our confusion over how to deal with our SDA loved ones would clarify if we were able to look at them as likely being UNSAVED. As long as we internally waffle over whether or not they know Jesus, we don't have to treat them as needing to be evangelized. Rather, we just hope(!) they will see the need to replace Sabbath with Jesus. If they need to replace Sabbath with Jesus, they don't know Jesus. They may know about Jesus, and they may know a "version" of Jesus. But they don't know the biblical Jesus. No, we can't brow-beat them into seeing and accepting the biblical Jesus. But we will be much clearer and more consistent if we see them as needing to surrender their idolatry (which they haven't identified as idolatry) and to bow the knee to Jesus alone. No, we can't argue and debate. But yes--we need to pray for them and intercede for their very souls. They think they are Christians, but unless they are born again, they are not Christians. They believe in a false gospel, and they are deceived by what Paul calls doctrines of demons and false teachers. It is Paul, not I, who identified people who teach these things "false teachers", and their teachings as "doctrines of demons". We have to be willing to know this in our own hearts and minds before we are equipped to truly deal with Adventism. This spiritual recognition will not make us aggressive. It will, however, give us authority and power. God has promised that His Spirit will give us God's wisdom, discernment, and the mind of Christ. In Christ, truth and error are clearly defined. They are not blurred or "gray". We have to KNOW what we face. Jesus, who knew truth and error more clearly than any other human, was the epitome of love and compassion as well as of rebuke and revelation of unbelief. Colleen |
