| Author | Message | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 5654 Registered: 9-2006  |
Hec, It means when I get upset, I tend to get a little to sharp with my words. I knew if I said anything in that condition I would say too much. Jeremy said what needed to be said, and I appreciate Jeremy's ministry here so much. But lets move on and let love take its course as we all need God's mercy and grace. We don't want to allow a root of bitterness spring up among us, I pray that we guard each other so that it does not happen. Cortney, I appreciate your post so much, sharing with us about this.Not only that, but I enjoy hearing from you again. I agree... River | ||
| Pegg Registered user Username: Pegg Post Number: 480 Registered: 2-2006 |
I did not take ANYTHING out of context! I simply repeated the part that I disagree with. I agree that "complete Christian Freedom" isn't available within the confines of SDA doctrine. Why would I take issue with that? What does it mean if one cannot have "complete salvation" without doing (in this case stopping doing) something? Is there such a thing as incomplete salvation? My point is that there is one Requirement for Salvation. He is Jesus Christ.  I do not have to know Him perfectly. I do not have to understand all the theology of the Trinity. I don't have to have all the ins and outs of His nature right. What I have to believe is that, at the end of the day, He is the One who will save me. It doesn't matter if I believe I need to keep the Sabbath. It doesn't matter if I believe there are things I shouldn't eat, or wear or do. None of that matters as long as I know that, when it comes down to it, I'm a louse at all those things, and He righteous life will count for mine. In talking with many, many SDAs, this is exactly where they are. I don't think it serves the cause of our Lord when we engage in rhetoric that casts something one does or does not do as a salvational matter. This is making it a work. If one wants to convince people to give up on works it makes sense to keep the message consistent. It was my full intention to initiate the discussion you have had. Many of you have said things that I entirely agree with. I entirely disagree with some as well. The Gift Is Too Precious. We Cannot Use Our Rhetoric To Place Restrictions On It. Love You And Blessings On You All. Pegg | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 5655 Registered: 9-2006 |
I think Colleen said it best in that last post, none of us are saying anyone has to leave Adventism to be saved, but there are people in the process of leaving Adventism on here and it behooves us not to soft soap what Adventism is and what it does to people. Its an evil deceiving cult, and it leads people not toward Jesus and saving grace, but away. If we soft soap it there will be those who decide, "Well it might not be so bad after all." and they turn around and go right back in it, right back into the misery they left. Ask Keri what a battle she has been having and just by the way, we need to remember to pray for her, she has lost her job, having to move to another home, and she is by herself. There are hurting people out there folks, and we best not be soft soaping the truth. Colleen is just being truthful and honest about how it is, She has never been dishonest with a one of us, nor neither has she ever, ever, ever, thrown darts at anyone, Adventist or anybody else. She and her husband has worked tirelessly and made it on little to help there ain't no telling how many people process out of Adventism, opened their home and their hearts to the hurting. I am not trying to embarrass them, or build them up with flattery, I am also just telling the truth and when I no longer can be truthful, then friend, I got no use for it. River | ||
| Pegg Registered user Username: Pegg Post Number: 481 Registered: 2-2006 |
River, I agree that Coleen has gone to lengths to clarify what she means. I appreciate that. As I said, it was my intent to start this discussion. I don't think preaching that the Gift is entirely free is soft soaping it. I really don't think (I certainly don't want to think!) that anyone where wishes to convey otherwise. If this is true, we need to be careful that the rhetoric we use conveys a message that is consistent with the Gospel. See, here's where I think perhaps I differ with what you have said. (Maybe we don't differ and it's just that you have said it differently.) I believe that My Father will have His kids with or without me. I have no idea why He has chosen me as His vessel for this work, but I am certain that should I mess it up (and I often do) He will cause even the stones to cry out if that is what it takes. River - Everyone! The friends the Lord God chose to use to show Living Water to me didn't tell me 'SDA is a cult that leads to hell'. They didn't say, 'The things you've always believed are evil.' They never said, 'If you stay deceived by the SDA gospel you cannot be saved.' The words they said were things like "Assurance". "No one can snatch us out of His hand." "The one who believes has passed from death into life." "There is now no condemnation." "When a man works, his wages are not credited as a gift." "Take my yoke upon you...and you will find rest for your soul." "Why are we putting a yoke upon them?" "There remains a REST for the children of God." It was the evident JOY that they simply exuded as they told me these things that touched that longing place in my heart. River, I'm not trying to have a personal discussion about anyone. I'm trying very hard not to make personal remarks. Holding a discussion of things one disagrees about is not a personal attack. I have not meant to disparage Coleen or Richard or LAM. I meant to openly state where I was in disagreement with what was said, and why, and as I have said, to open up the discussion that has ensued. It seems to me that is exactly what is supposed to take place on a discussion forum. One last thing, River. I want to thank you for the measured tone of your post. I comprehended it much better than I would have understood "a conniption of a rickety unhinged googlehiemer sockeyed fit". Pegg | ||
| Jrt Registered user Username: Jrt Post Number: 869 Registered: 10-2008 |
My experience is different than yours, Pegg. I "needed" to hear that SDA is a cult and I "needed" to hear the "hard" stuff. It was the things you disagree with that sent me on a trajection out of Adventism. Some of the very things you disagree with saying on this forum, caused me to take the next step out of Adventism. That is not a salvific statement I am making, hope that is CLEAR, but the steps out Adventism have caused me to be clearer and clearer about the errors and the draw of this "different" gospel. So we have different experiences and I disagree with you. Recently, I went to a Bible study with an evangelical and an Adventist couple. I felt the Spirit tell me to say some "hard" things. The man was speaking out of two sides of his mouth. I confronted him. He reacted and was exceedingly angry with me - even ready to leave. Since then, I have heard that the man is still meeting with the evangelical and actually is staying up very late at night studying the Bible. He told the evangelical the things that came out of my mouth - caused him to think. He is coming to the conclusion that Adventism, the doctrines, are wrong. So, I don't believe we can or should say God need work only in "this" way to reveal Himself to His children. Pegg, indeed, salvation is not of works. Yet, and I pray you hear this clearly, Adventism (its doctrines and the institution of Adventism) is false, and those individuals that God has called in Adventism - whom He has chosen, who stay in Adventism ... are either rebelling against the Holy Spirit - Who leads us to truth OR they are not born again. That journey out of Adventism, and hear this clearly, may take time or even years. We are then to encourage and exhort those that worship in a false system. Love them well, absolutely, but loving well may also include confrontation - look at some of those Jesus confronted. Jesus told Nicodemus, a spiritual leader, that he didn't and couldn't discern things ... if that wasn't confrontation, I don't know what is. Recently, a new evangelical friend texted me. She text, "Is the Clear Word" the Adventist Bible? Then later she text, "What would you do if you saw that Bible in a good friend's home". She was at a friend's home that was not SDA and had never been Adventist. Long story short, she told the friend it was heresy. I was so happy, that someone was "getting" the error of Adventism. The friend of the friend (hope that made sense) threw the Clear Word into the trash. Sorry, this post will have added my two cents, but then I may not be able to respond for awhile. My apologies. Pegg, I do have a question for you ... I'm not sure if I follow your "rhetoric". You seem very angry when people on this forum call Adventism heresy or evil or as you post above "a cult". May I ask why? Other than it was not your experience to "hear" those things when coming out of Adventism. And I do need to add this ... I believe there IS a deep, dark spiritual deception to Adventism. If a person honestly searches the history of Adventism they can't help but find that it was a "religion" born out of deception. And that spirit of deception continues to reside in Adventism. Keri | ||
| Asurprise Registered user Username: Asurprise Post Number: 1077 Registered: 7-2007 |
A person needs to have the right Jesus. Catholics have a Jesus that's a perpetual sacrifice. That's why it's called the "sacrifice of the mass." Adventists have a weak Jesus that didn't finish the atonement, who's blood transferred sin to Heaven and who has to investigate us. JWs have a Jesus who's "a god" who's not God (they have "a god" in their mistranslated "New World Translation.") and Mormons have a Jesus who had a beginning as a spirit brother to Lucifer. They believe that Jesus was a man who became a god, not God Who became a man. If a person has the right Jesus and places their faith entirely in Him, they are saved. When I was an Adventist, I had a sort of check-list. As long as I adhered to the check-list and kept asking forgiveness, then I hoped I'd be alright. I couldn't quite agree with Paul where he said that believers "have been saved," (He said that in at least three places) because Ellen White said no one could say they are saved. Since I couldn't quite believe him (I took a position somewhere between Paul and Ellen White), I therefore could not believe that I could COMPLETELY accept Jesus free gift of salvation. (Actually I THOUGHT I believed the Bible. I just thought Ellen White explained it.) It wasn't until I found out that the Adventist church was wrong that I could REALLY BELIEVE the Bible - just as it reads! | ||
| Nowisee Registered user Username: Nowisee Post Number: 157 Registered: 5-2009 |
Again, not to beat a dead horse (sorry Animal!), but it just seems so serious to me that Adventism is still teaching and has never recanted as far as I know (saw it being preached very convincingly on Amazing Facts) that Jesus is a created being. Referring of course to Michael the archangel. Don't you all strongly believe that the Holy Spirit will guide us as we talk/witness to SDA loved ones as to just how we should approach them? This issue is so difficult that I can't lean on my own wisdom--even tho I forget sometimes and have to remind myself. (I can't say the habit of leaning on the H.S. was a concept I even understood as an Adventist!) | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 10534 Registered: 12-2003  |
Just for the record: my statement in question, was actually using the exact words of Cortney's original statement:
Cortney's original post was really good, and it deserved a closer look. I wouldn't have chosen to use those words if I hadn't been echoing what was actually stated. That said, I want to affirm what Keri and also Asurprise have said above. First I had to hear the gospel. I was overwhelmed and totally changed by learning that God keeps the covenant with Jesus, not with me. But I couldn't get my mind around the Sabbath or understand what the Bible actually said about the law until I faced head-on the reality that EGW was a false prophet. I have spoken over the years to a great many people who couldn't actually deal with their Adventism until they realized that EGW was not just a fraud but evil, a true false prophet in the biblical sense (meaning not just self-centeredly manipulating people but actually conveying message from false spirits). I was completely stuck until I admitted Ellen was a false prophet. It must be stated. I also know that many people who are still Adventists lurk here and read our statements and get completely miffed. Yet later, the things they read germinated into clear questions, and they come back and realize they have learned that Adventism is not truth, but the Lord Jesus is. Here's what I'm learning: none of us processes at exactly the same rates or in the same ways. When speaking to individuals, I don't speak with a "cult script". I speak to them based on their own questions and reactions. But I no longer fear speaking truth. I don't say everything I believe in every conversation, but when God gives me moments to speak, I have to be willing to speak truth. And on this forum, in a public setting I am aware is read by not only formers but Adventists, I must not mince the truth for the sake of the Adventists. This forum's name states its official, intended audience. I cannot soft-pedal my statements so I don't offend those who are not even the intended audience. Offended Adventists really don't have to read if they are uncomfortable. But I have learned that a great many Adventists really do hear things here that they wouldn't hear in their normal circles of conversation, and these things, even many of the things that anger them at first, are the seeds of cognitive dissonance that God uses to awaken them to reality. I do pray that the Holy Spirit is here, that He protect the forum, that He direct the conversations, that He bring those who need to come and keep away those who should be kept away. He knows who needs to read and talk. We can trust Him completely to work on the hearts of ALL who read here! Colleen | ||
| Christo Registered user Username: Christo Post Number: 175 Registered: 2-2008 |
It seems that once you know Jesus, the SDA's won't let you stay an adventist, because it is natural , and inspiring to share your new found joy, and spirit led faith with others. Adventism always presents itself as in a state of discovery, after all present truth is their model. So a sharing of a new found discovery in the Bible would seem to be a gift to be shared, and received, much like we do on this forum, and correction is very gentle here when this great cloud of believers sets to give even more encouragement than someone was even asking for in our discoveries. But trying to share the most obvious aspects of the gospel, is met with constant rejection, and rebuttal in adventism. So the born again, does not leave as much as they are pushed out with an underlying subtle, sometimes harsh rejection of who you are in you new found state of adoption by God. Imagine you are an orphan finally getting adopted, and nobody in the orphanage is happy for you, and doesn't want you around anymore unless you are willing to be miserable too. When you decide you no longer want to be an orphan, when God has said come, I'll adopt you. The call in sda is" no, stay in the orphanage with us." The call of God is still, I'll adopt you. Chris | ||
| Seekinglight Registered user Username: Seekinglight Post Number: 457 Registered: 3-2009 |
Christo, I think you're right, but here's the thing... Many of us know SDAs in our lives who say all the right words and seem to understand that Jesus paid the entire price for their sins. Privately, they even say they disagree with Ellen, and they actually appear to be enjoying a life of freedom and grace. They show many of the fruits of being born again. Yet they stay in the SDA system--for decades. I could name several folks in this category, and perhaps many of you can as well. It's not that simple that folks who find Jesus automatically take steps to get out of Adventism. So, to resolve this apparent dilemma, we tend to start speculating that those folks really don't know Jesus after all. This conundrum seems like it's caused endless discussion/debate since I've joined the forum. These debates usually become a bit heated, ruffle feathers, and engender stress and frustration for those who are still struggling to leave Adventism or who have dear friends & family still in Adventism. They also could potentially send the wrong idea to newly questioning SDAs who are lurking. Finally, these debates seem to never be resolved except for the following principles. Can we all at least agree to these? 1. We cannot motivate folks to leave Adventism by saying/implying they won't be saved unless they do. 2. We cannot assume these folks are or are not saved. 3. We have the privilege to intercede for all SDAs regardless of how "good" or how "bad" they sound theologically. 4. We don't have to worry about who's saved and who is not because that's God's domain alone. Just trying to summarize, and unite us on common ground | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 5657 Registered: 9-2006 |
Very good Chris. Your analogy is right on the way I see it. | ||
| Jrt Registered user Username: Jrt Post Number: 870 Registered: 10-2008 |
I wished to add just a quick sidelight to my above post. There are three categories in Adventism: 1) Not born-again 2) Born again and transitioning (waiting on the Lord's timing to leave) 3) Born again and in rebellion against the Holy Spirit - not really even choosing to consider leaving, but defending their right to stay as it would cause to many issues in their life. Therefore, they rationalize away the errancy and heresy of Adventism, choosing to pick the things they agree with and disregard those they don't - yet remaining in Adventism and not living in integrity. | ||
| Cortney Registered user Username: Cortney Post Number: 67 Registered: 8-2006 |
In Adventism EGW writings are essentially equal to scripture. Many in the Church do not want to openly admit this,though. The Church uses these false writings as 'proof' that the church is the remant and say her writings were inspired. Is this statement inspiring? -Are we striving with all our God-given powers to reach the measure of the stature of men and women in Christ? Are we seeking for His fullness, ever reaching higher and higher, trying to retain the perfection of His character? When God's servants reach this point, they will be sealed in their foreheads. The recording angel will decclare, "It is done." They will become complete in Him whose they are by creation and redemption.--3SM 427, pg. 222 Last Day Events- How can you have complete Freedom in Christ when you hold tight to the 'inspuired' works of EGW? Perfectionism is an idealistic essentional in Adventism. Maybe all don't agree with me, that's ok, in my own experience it was a stumbing block , or barrier in my relationship with God. For me it was essential to leave Adventism, I needed to be free from the chains and idols of Adventism in order to grow spiritually and except the Grace of Christ completely and to feel worthy and excepted. You hear Adventists like Mark Finley say sometimes 'You are saved by Grace', SDA's view of 'Saved by Grace' is different than main-stream evangelical. As long as EGW is in Adventism grace will always be Jesus+yadda, yadda, yadda formula. For many of us on the forum it was essential to leave the church, not because leaving Adventism meant salvation but because truth convicts, I know God convicted each and every one us to move forward in our faith- that's why we are so passionate about the Lord and the truth in the Word of God. Christ mets us where we are, we walk hand and hand. We will never be perfect, but will live according to the word of God not because of fear, but love. Adventism seems to thrive on a persons fear, or at least mine it did. | ||
| Cortney Registered user Username: Cortney Post Number: 68 Registered: 8-2006 |
What I meant in my post was that I was so occupied with being the 'perfect' Adventist, because of fear of not being saved, I was separating myself from God. Perfectionism was becoming an 'idol' in my life and I was feeled with guilt because I couldn't live up to the standards of the Church and EGW writings. Not everyone shares the same experience as I did, but for my own spiritual growth and sanity I knew I needed to separate myself from Adventism. God met me where I was and helped to leave the 'system of idolism and slavery', and I'm a happier person for it. Doug Batchelor always talked about idlolism in his sermons(jewelry,make-up, even certain foods) yet he doesn't understand what he and the Church have done to the writings of EGW, they elevate them so highly. Her writings are the Church's present truth and testimony, I consider them to be the anti-gospel. The Church either stands or falls on her writings. And the wonderful excuses they have for her ridiculous statements, why, because they need EGW writings to justify their belief system. What the Bible isn't good enough? With many in the Church I'm afraid the Bible isn't enough. Is that not Idolatry? | ||
| Pegg Registered user Username: Pegg Post Number: 482 Registered: 2-2006 |
Once again, Keri. I think that stating one's disagreement clearly in a discussion is not being "angry". You all are entitled to your opinions. I have stated that I entirely agree with some and entirely disagree with others. You guys have gone on and on, but NO ONE has chosen to address the initial point, which I have reiterated several times. It is that whenever we set something other than belief as a Requirement for salvation the entire Gospel is nullified. As Paul says, my Jesus died for nothing. Heaven becomes wages.  Many of you have gone to great lengths to declare that you are not setting up leaving SDA as a work - that it is something that one does because they have been saved - and yet saved people will absolutely do it. I have agreed that, in my experience, once the Lord God claimed my life returning to SDA was simply impossible. I don't see, however, how the contention that has been made is any different from the argument of SDAs that keeping the Sabbath is not something they do to be saved, rather they keep it because of the great gratitude that they feel for Jesus Christ and that all of His children will eventually come to see the light as well. The Gift is either free or it's not. If there is something one has to [eventually] DO to keep it, it is wages. Pegg (Message edited by pegg on October 21, 2009) | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 5659 Registered: 9-2006 |
Quote: "You guys have gone on and on, but NO ONE has chosen to address the initial point, which I have reiterated several times." Your supposition has been addressed every which way but loose. What I think you are about is to come over here and turn this forum into a CARM. Thats not the purpose of this forum (at least not in my own honest opinion) I think you need to let this dead horse stay dead. (Just my own observation) River | ||
| Christo Registered user Username: Christo Post Number: 176 Registered: 2-2008 |
I think this video will help explain the deep tragic outcome of idol worshiping. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WnY59mDJ1gg&feature=popular Chris | ||
| Pegg Registered user Username: Pegg Post Number: 485 Registered: 2-2006 |
River, I'm afraid I don't entirely understand your post. I AM more used to posting at CARM. Perhaps you are right that have the purpose of this forum wrong. So what is the purpose, in your opinion - to toe the party line? I thought the purpose of this forum was to provide a safe place to explore the Truth that is revealed in Scripture as it relates to the unique doctrine of SDA. I hold One essential --> Jesus Christ Saves Me. This is the reason I left SDA. It is the reason I cannot keep silent when additional essential[s] are implied. Pegg PS - I'm not sure why, if you guys want me to just shut up, you keep addressing me and asking me questions. (Message edited by pegg on October 21, 2009) | ||
| Hec Registered user Username: Hec Post Number: 668 Registered: 3-2009 |
I don't want you to shut up. Questions. Answers. That's how I learn. I do get somewhat uncomfortable when the idea is given that unless one believes the same as the people in the forum (the party line?) one is wrong. Let's continue to debate the ideas, not the people. Let the giver debate the idea. Let the receiver not take anything personal. Hec | ||
| Asurprise Registered user Username: Asurprise Post Number: 1078 Registered: 7-2007 |
Pegg; I don't understand. If someone was in a prison camp and being tortured, if the gate to the outside was opened, why would that person want to remain and continue being tortured? How would that be a work to leave? Yes, I know that some people are saved BEFORE they leave the SDA church - maybe even years beforehand (read Dale Ratzlaff's book about his own story where he discovered that all he needed to do to be saved was to completely and only accept Jesus' sacrifice for him), but like you said earlier; the Holy Spirit wouldn't let you stay after you discovered your freedom in Christ. Romans 10:3 clears up this issue. It makes it clear that if someone is "seeking to establish their own righteousness," they haven't subjected "themselves to the righteousness of God." |
