| Author | Message | ||
| Cortney Registered user Username: Cortney Post Number: 65 Registered: 8-2006 |
My thought is anything can become your own personal 'God' if you give it more recognition than the one and only 'Lord God Almighty'. I know in my own personal journey what ate was always a stumbling block in my walk with the Lord,(I admitt it I love Starbucks and Chocolate and Meat), or so I thought as an Adventist. It's important to live a healthy life, but what happens when you obsess over the 'perfect diet' to the point your more concerned with what you or somebody else is eating than you are concerned about your own relationship with God? Once upon a time I was that way, and I lived in guilt over it. I still know many Adventist who obsess over the 'perfect diet', or 'perfect sabbath-keeping', doug Batchelor's sermons always seemed to point towards perfection, instead of Grace. Is it possible to be so caught up in being a 'perfect Adventist;, that you lose sight of the 'Big Picture' a right relationship with a Perfect God? I live in Silver Spring now, a hub of Adventism, I went into the Potomac center to get Christian music the other day(I regret this) and they handed me a flyer for a 'health fair', it just brought back feelings of discontent in me. Why did I let the Church or EGW keep me in guilt for so long? I remember back in the days thinking-'How great would it be to just have Jesus!', instead it was Jesus+the 27fundamentals and whatever insightful info the Review and Herald had to offer and the EGW collection. I remember people in biblestudy or sabbath-school coming in with EGW footnotes to interpret the scripure we were studying. I guess why think for yourself, when Ellen White can do all your thinking for you. I hope i'm not being to offensive or to bitter, just having the flyer given to me stirred up some emotion within me. Does anyone ever have a sad reminder of their 'old life in Adventism'? Does anyone know what is the attrition rate in the SDA church? I met a former SDA family at our nieghborhood pool this summer, they had interesing things to say about their SDA experiences. I don't understand how you can have complete salvation and freedom in Christ, as an Adventist. There are so many dont's and rules and obligations. And the guilt alone, still I get a cold chill thinking about all of it. | ||
| Skeeter Registered user Username: Skeeter Post Number: 411 Registered: 12-2007 |
Cortney, I understand what you mean... reading your post gave me cold chills. BUT we THOUGHT we were doing the right things... or I guess I should say we thought we were ATTEMPTING to do the right things as I dont think anyone can honestly say they did everything as an Adventist that they felt they should be doing.. I dont think it is possible. And trying to live up to impossible standards and constantly failing is very depressing,,, "how can God ever accept me if I cant even do this, and this and this oh and I cant forget to do that and I cant do that I shouldnt even THINK about toing that..." Where is the joy in that kind of life ??? Thank you Lord for showing us the way out of Adventism and showing us that you love us despite our weaknesses. :-) Skeeter | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 10524 Registered: 12-2003  |
Cortney, yes. I understand the emotional flashbacks. The attrition rate is pretty high...there is one statistic that says 3,000 per year leave, but I don't believe that number accounts for those who slip out without resigning their membership. I agree that I don't believe a person can be an observant Adventist and have complete salvation and freedom in Christ. It is a different gospel, and it doesn't teach a person Truth. It is a deception. Praise God He calls us and teaches us Himself through His word! Colleen | ||
| Christo Registered user Username: Christo Post Number: 174 Registered: 2-2008 |
Colleen, Did you mean 300,000. Chris | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 10528 Registered: 12-2003 |
Oops-- I'll just simplify it and put up this link to a quote on Mark Martin's site from the SDA dept of statistics and archives. This is old data--it's from the 2005 GC session. http://exadventist.com/Home/Articles/SDAGrowthSlows/tabid/495/Default.aspx Colleen | ||
| Pegg Registered user Username: Pegg Post Number: 479 Registered: 2-2006 |
Sharpen Your Darts! I do not believe that Scripture teaches that leaving SDA is a required work for salvation. We do not see Paul commanding to Jewish Christians to leave off Sabbathkeeping, kosher or even circumcision. The writer of Hebrews doesn't tell his Jewish Christian readers that they cannot continue in the traditions of their culture. What both say is that Jesus Christ is Better. He is Sufficient. Salvation is obtained through Him by faith alone in God's New Covenant. I know there are proof-texts that are used. Don't even pull them out with me. The only way they work is by ripping them from their context. What you are doing here is putting the cart before the horse. I believe the Lord God saves His own no matter where they are. He is perfectly capable of enlightening His kids inside or outside of SDA. He, and He alone, is the appropriate judge of one's salvation. When He gave the Gift to me, He simply would not allow me to return to SDA. Once I grasped the magnitude of the Gift and the Christian Freedom that was mine, returning was out of the question. I cannot imagine, however, that had roles been reversed, had the Gentile Christians been telling Jewish Christians that they had to give up their observant traditions to be saved, that Paul would have sat quietly on the sidelines. It's a good thing for all of us that perfect theology isn't required for salvation.  When A Man Works, His Wages Are Not Credited To Him As A Gift, But As An Obligation! Romans 4:4 Pegg <crying> | ||
| Seekinglight Registered user Username: Seekinglight Post Number: 453 Registered: 3-2009 |
Why is it important for us to attempt to figure out if SDAs are saved or not--or which ones are saved versus which ones aren't? I've heard the argument that we'll pray for our SDA friends/family more fervently if we assume they're lost. There's almost like an assumption that there's a positive relationship between the fervency of our prayers and the probability that our loved one will be saved. Also, I've heard endless discussion of formers speculating whether or not they were saved as an SDA or not. Perhaps this is part of the grieving process, I don't know. I think we could all agree that God is big enough to take care of all these matters, so we don't have to. IMO, we have the privilege to pray earnestly for all SDAs whether we think they're saved or not. And, perhaps I can free up cognitive/emotional resources spent in speculating which SDAs are saved (if any at all). Is it heretical for me to suggest that we can put our SDA loved ones' salvation into God's capable hands and stop worrying about it? | ||
| 8thday Registered user Username: 8thday Post Number: 1300 Registered: 11-2007  |
I do understand what Colleen is trying to say. If someone believes and practices Adventism as it reads, they have not trusted Christ, the one and only way to be saved. It's not complicated. Salvation is by faith - not mental assent. Faith is trust - not just knowledge. I've seen the false teaching prevent that trust completely. Thankfully - there are probably many who don't really understand their own religion, and trust Christ in spite of the doctrine that doesn't recommend you do that. It's SO important to me to speak the truth because I can't always tell who it's hurting and who is going to come out unscathed. Yes -- God is in control, and only He can save, but He gives us the privilege of spreading that Good News. If we aren't dealing with salvation issues here.. then lets turn off our computers, quit printing books, and keep quiet. If it's just a difference of opinions, they are a valid expression of the Body of Christ and the apologetics arm of this ministry needs to just shut down. I could never be involved in exposing any teacher or group that I disagreed with unless I believed there were salvational issues at stake. But they are teaching a different gospel, and at least we have not gone so far as Paul and said we wished they would mutilate themselves. Read Galatians again. It's no small thing to twist this foundational truth into a lie. It hurts people - and sends them to hell. Gal 5:4 You are severed from Christ, you who would be justified by the law; you have fallen away from grace. (I don't believe the context there is a mystery:D) I do pray for all my sda relatives and friends - and if I see evidence that they do not have peace with God - I don't feel it's wrong for me to intercede for them to be granted this gift - for God to reveal Himself to them in a way they can understand and rest in, because I know He is the only one who can. Maybe it just makes me feel better, but I do know God works His will in the earth through the prayers of His people as He inspires them to pray... so He gets the glory. Love ya'll anyway.. =) I know someday.. everyone will all agree with me. Even my husband. haha. Sondra | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 3063 Registered: 10-2004  |
Pegg, If you don't like people taking texts out of context, then why are you taking Colleen's words out of context? Pegg, nobody has ever said that "leaving SDA is a required work for salvation." Quit bearing false witness against us and putting words in our mouths. And I don't understand your references to "Jewish Christians." SDAs, in general, are neither Jewish nor Christians. As for Gentile Christians, Paul did indeed tell them to leave off sabbath-keeping. I do have a question, though: would you tell a Hindu or Buddhist that they have to "give up their observant traditions to be saved"? Jeremy | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 5649 Registered: 9-2006  |
Jeremy, I am glad you said something, It kept me from having a conniption of a rickety unhinged googlehiemer sockeyed fit. River | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 3065 Registered: 10-2004 |
Well, it's just that it's a very serious (and false) accusation, to charge us with preaching a false gospel of salvation by works. Jeremy | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 10530 Registered: 12-2003 |
Last Sunday in one of the most amazing sermons I've sat through, Gary said this: he doesn't believe in Jesus because the Bible says He is God; rather, He believes in the Bible because Jesus says it is God's word. This is the same sort of argument I use when I say things like, "I agree that I don't believe a person can be an observant Adventist and have complete salvation". This statement has nothing to do with Adventist practices and traditions. This statement has everything to do with the fact that when a person places his or her faith totally in Jesus, Adventism will not be an option any longer. Does it take time to leave? Yes. Will a person leave once they choose Jesus as their ultimate "value" and reason for living? I believe they will. Leaving Adventism does not make a person a believer; being a believer—as in surrendering one's life and sin to the Lord Jesus—will mean he cannot remain Adventist for long. I know an Adventist woman involved in our women's Bible study at Trinity who is what I would call "transitioning" for sure. She is (tearfully and with astonishment) discovering that the Bible is inerrant, that Jesus is EVERYTHING, that He is the reason she can trust the Bible. In a recent conversation with several women (never been SDA but all Christians) including this one transitioning Adventist, I said, "Adventists do not believe in the same Jesus we believe in. Their Jesus could have sinned; He was exalted to the position of God; he had no advantage we don't have..." This transitioning woman was looking at me very intently. (Mind you, she is still Adventist, and she is still attending SDA church with her family on Sabbath although she is also attending Christian church on Sunday.) Then she said something I've never heard an Adventist (and even, I must say, a lot of formers) admit: "I didn't have the cognitive words to explain what you just said, but [and she pointed to her heart] I believed all that." Adventists who are observant Adventists may have sincere hearts—and if they do, God will reveal His truth with increasing clarity. But observant Adventists do not know the real, powerful, Lion-Of-Judah, sovereign Lord Jesus who totally completed the atonement at the cross! Without placing their faith in the Lord Jesus, they are not saved. Absolutely, God finds and saves His own. That is the only way anyone is ever saved. But when people have not placed their faith and trust in the Living Lord and King of Kings, they are not experiencing salvation. Jeremy's question is apt: what about Hindus and Buddhists? Should they give up their traditions? Over the years whenever I wondered if I were taking too hard a line on Adventism, I would ask myself, Would I grant Mormonism or JW's a pass? To be sure, we must leave our Adventist loved one's salvation in God's hands. It's not our job to agonize over whether or not they are saved. But we must not assume that they'll "be OK" because they are sincere and because they can say certain words. Deception is not truth. Deception, however, often sounds and looks like truth until you examine it closely. No, I'm not preaching any SORT of salvation by works. And I'm not saying if a person bears the title "SDA" he is lost. I am saying Adventism is dangerous and deadly. It actually does keep many people in spiritual darkness, and they think they intellectually "have the truth". Ephesians 5:11-12 admonishes us not to give a pass to the evil deeds of darkness but to expose them. That exposure is what we're committed to. Colleen | ||
| Skeeter Registered user Username: Skeeter Post Number: 419 Registered: 12-2007 |
Pegg, I agree with this statement of yours "When He gave the Gift to me, He simply would not allow me to return to SDA. Once I grasped the magnitude of the Gift and the Christian Freedom that was mine, returning was out of the question." But it seems you understood what Colleen was saying completely differently than I (at least) did. Colleen :"I agree that I don't believe a person can be an observant Adventist and have complete salvation and freedom in Christ. It is a different gospel, and it doesn't teach a person Truth. It is a deception. " She said if a person is an "OBSERVANT" Adventist...and I agree with that. To be an "observant" Adventist you must believe in ALL of the Doctrines of the Denomination, believe EVERYTHING that Ellen White wrote was "inspired by God" and follow HER teachings as closely as possible. THAT is a religion of "works" to be sure. Can we go to church on "Sabbath" and be saved ? of course ! Can we be vegetarian and be saved ? yes ! But we cannot make it a matter of Salvation to do those things. Just as we cannot make it a "Salvation" issue to go to church on Sunday and to eat meat. If we emmerse ourselves fully in the belief system of Adventism, believe everything Ellen White taught , believe what is taught in the Sabbath school quarterlies and other publications, without comparing to what the Bible actually says, then how CAN there be true acceptance of the "GIFT" of Salvation when they are so convinced that their salvation depends on THEIR works (instead of accepting what Christ did) and striving for that state of "perfection" that is completely unobtainable ? So, do I believe an Adventist CAN be saved ? Yes, but it seems to me it most probably will happen only if they are studying the Bible and doing a LOT of filtering out of SDA teachings to see and accept only what the Bible says is true. And if anyone is truly praying and seeking God's will and findint the real truth of the Gospel... HOW can that person in good conscience STAY in the Adventist church ? I'm not saying it isn't POSSIBLE..only God knows their heart, but personally I dont see it would be very PROBABLE. So, do we have a right to "judge" those who choose to stay in Adventism ? I dont think so, but having come from there and knowing what is taught, knowing the deception, I think we have a DUTY to pray for them and for their release from a false system. Skeeter | ||
| Seekinglight Registered user Username: Seekinglight Post Number: 456 Registered: 3-2009 |
I agree with most everything said here. Here's the problem that I see: I don't want a questioning SDA to stumble on this forum and take away the idea that the formers believe s/he has to leave the church or Jesus will not save them. I know that no one has really said that outrightly, but it just so we're being clear & careful... | ||
| Skeeter Registered user Username: Skeeter Post Number: 420 Registered: 12-2007 |
I just went back and saw Colleens last post. If I had seen it before I posted mine I wouldnt have even posted it cause she explains things so much clearer than I do. :-) | ||
| Hec Registered user Username: Hec Post Number: 660 Registered: 3-2009 |
That is absolutely imposible. In most topics, EGW teaches both sides of the argument, i.e. give the tithe to the conference, don't give the tithe to the conference; pork is a good food, pork shouldn't be consumed; Jesus is the eternal god, Jesus was exalted by the Father to an equal position. How can a person believe, follow, and practice what she says? Which statement would be the correct one? I believe that SDAs can be saved, but not because they are SDAs, but in spite of being SDAs. Hec | ||
| Skeeter Registered user Username: Skeeter Post Number: 421 Registered: 12-2007 |
"I believe that SDAs can be saved, but not because they are SDAs, but in spite of being SDAs. " Exactly ! :-) NONE of us, SDA or not can NEVER, EVER be "good enough" to DESERVE to be saved. That is the incredible thing about our Fathers love.. He loves us not because we deserve it, but because we are His children and we look to Him and His perfection and His love for us and we ACCEPT His free gift of Salvation in spite of the fact that we do not deserve it. Skeeter | ||
| Hec Registered user Username: Hec Post Number: 661 Registered: 3-2009 |
River, translation please. Hec | ||
| Cortney Registered user Username: Cortney Post Number: 66 Registered: 8-2006 |
When I practiced Adventism I went on the belief that it you didn't 'obey' the Law(OT) and (EGW) and Church(SDA) you weren't fully worthy or ready to recieve salvation. Not obeying the Law or Church meant you were cut off from God, because you were'nt 'practicing' the 'Truth" according to EGW and the Church's standards. That was a major barrier in my own personal relationship with God. I wasn't perfect, I struggled, thereful I wasn't quite worthy yet. I had to practice complete obedience and discipline in every area of my life, EGw wrote about having and gaining a 'perfect character' before Christ returns, so you will be worthy of salvation. I'm not saying all SDA's feel the way I did, but a majority of them do focus on perfection rather than grace. Adventists are as worthy as us to recieve salvation, the problem is they are cutting themselves off from Christ when they place their diet, the Sabbath and EGW writings over the Grace of the gospel. The gospel is about Freedom in Christ!! | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 10533 Registered: 12-2003 |
Seekinglight, you're right. I don't believe any of us are saying that unless an Adventist leaves the SDA church, they won't be saved. Paul says in Ephesians 2:4-5 that because of His great love for us, "even when we were dead in our transgressions, [He] made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), and raised us up with Him and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus." Notice that Paul is very clear: God makes us alive with Christ (saves us) when we are dead in our transgression. In other words, He saves us when we respond to the gospel by His own miraculous intervention. He does not do this after we begin leaving our sin(s) behind. He does this while we are dead in sin. After He saves us, He works to complete what He has begun (PHil 1:6). He does not let us sit in our sin; He gives us His own mind so we can perceive spiritual reality and truth and understand His word (see 1 Corinthians 2). He then leads us out of our sins into His full freedom. Some of us don't actually experience that freedom and "born-again" joy until after we leave Adventism. Some realize it before, but they also know they have to keep following Jesus where He leads. It just becomes more and more apparent that Adventism is incompatible with the gospel. Ultimately we face issues of integrity. No, we are not saved in conjunction with leaving Adventism any more than an alcoholic is saved in conjunction with leaving alcohol (as River's story demonstrates). But the inverse is often true: we leave Adventism (or alcohol or other bondage) when we are saved by God's miraculous intervention. Remember when Elijah on Mt Carmel asked, "How long (will) you hesitate between two opinions? If the LORD is God, follow Him; but if Baal, follow him" (1 Kings 18:21). That is the question we all ultimately face. Will we follow Jesus, no matter what He asks us to leave behind, or will we hold onto the habits and loyalties and loves to which we have become accustomed? You know, we get it backwards; the issue is not Adventism; the issue is Jesus. He asks us to forsake idolatry and to worship and serve only Him. Anything that we honor and serve besides Jesus is an idol. For most of us, Adventism was an idol of some significance. We cannot serve both Jesus and hold onto a system of belief that is counter to the gospel. God does not confront us FIRST with giving up Adventism. First, He presents Jesus. If we embrace Jesus, He makes it very clear what He wants us to do next...and He reveals each step only when it is His time for the next step. No one need worry about "leaving Adventism". The only issue is: What will you do with Jesus? Jesus defines every other decision. Colleen |
