| Author | Message | ||
| Bskillet Registered user Username: Bskillet Post Number: 571 Registered: 8-2008 |
Interesting: God brings with Him those who are asleep through Jesus. Note how Paul defines this later: Even when we are "asleep" we will live together with Him, which explains why God is bringing with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus. 1 Thess 5:9-10 is a parallel text to 2 Cor 5:6-9: In 1 Thess. 4:14, we find that just as Jesus died and rose, so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus. Jesus' resurrection life means that we do not cease to exist upon death. Sleep does not mean non-existence. In contrast, the popular view of the Pharisees at the time seemed to imply that death meant exactly that. Thus, we find: In contradiction to the idea that a believer wasn't in existence while dead, Jesus said that even if we die, we live on, meaning death cannot be non-existence. We continue on in some form. This way of continuing on, as N.T. Wright correctly stated, isn't just like being alive in the body. There is consciousness, but not in the same way that we are conscious now. This statement of Jesus is an explanation of what He meant when He said, earlier in the chapter, that Lazarus was sleeping. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 10319 Registered: 12-2003  |
It's amazing, isn't it, how we missed that verse entirely. I remember the day, several years ago, that I read that verse as if for the first time. For all practical purposes, it was for the first time! Amazing! Colleen | ||
| Pegg Registered user Username: Pegg Post Number: 303 Registered: 2-2006 |
Brent! I read 1 Thess straight for the first time this spring while waiting for a layover. (In fact, it was an awful schedule, but I read straight through so much of the NT and had so much time for communion that it stands out as one of the most blessed days of my life  .) I'm like Colleen. My eye's widened when I saw it. Here's how my NLT has it: Oh my! Another of my favorite ones I never even looked at in this regard is John 4:14
Awesome! Pegg | ||
| Cordurb Registered user Username: Cordurb Post Number: 32 Registered: 4-2009 |
I love that! It really is so clear isn't it? My question is why, if given the choice, would one want to believe in soul sleep? | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 10325 Registered: 12-2003 |
Good question. Perhaps because more than anything else, soul sleep creates a world view that minimizes the significance of sin and of eternity. It's more about us than about God. Colleen | ||
| Cordurb Registered user Username: Cordurb Post Number: 33 Registered: 4-2009 |
I do not really follow you on that, Colleen. How does soul sleep minimize the significance of sin? | ||
| Bskillet Registered user Username: Bskillet Post Number: 573 Registered: 8-2008 |
Actually, Adventists do not believe in soul sleep. That is a misnomer. I don't know if there is a term for what they believe. Real soul sleep teaches that the soul lives on after death, with God, but in an unconscious state. The Adventist position, in contrast, teaches that the soul ceases to exist. There are certain problems with the SDA position, most notably that if a body is made alive again, how do you know your consciousness will be in that body, and it won't be a completely different consciousness? This is the problem with their very materialistic (dare I say, atheistic) view of human nature. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 10333 Registered: 12-2003 |
Cordurb, as Bskillet said, Adventists don't believe a soul exists at all after death. They believe the "spirit" that goes to God is our breath, our "life force". This belief, that humans are just energized bodies without a spirit that is an immaterial but real part of them that knows God, completely eclipses the fact of spiritual death that is our natural condition. Adventists believe we have "inherited tendencies" to evil. They understand sin as a physical phenomenon, somehow transmitted genetically to us from Adam. They do not believe we have literal spirits that are born dead in sin. Therefore, they do not believe that the new birth is a literal regeneration of our literal spirits by the indwelling Holy Spirit. Therefore, they see Jesus' life on earth as just like what they suppose ours is like. They do not understand that He was sinless not primarily because he did not commits "sins", but He was sinless primarily because He had intrinsic spiritual life from His conception by the Holy Spirit. Jesus was the only human born who was not conceived in sin with a dead spirit. He was the only human born who did not have to be born again. Romans 5 and 8 clarify that the resurrection life of Jesus is what brings our spirits to life and gives us eternal life. Jesus HAD this life in Himself intrinsically. We have to have it imputed to us from God. Because of the Adventist belief that humans do not have a spirit that can know (or not know) God and survives death and goes to God, they have no way to understand what the new birth actually is. They see it as a change of heart or mind; an acceptance of "truth". They do not perceive that it is literally the resurrection life of Jesus taking residence in our spirits when we place our faith in Jesus and thus bringing us to eternal life. It's amazing—God's own Life lives in our still-mortal tents when we place our faith in Jesus. Does this help? Colleen | ||
| Jrt Registered user Username: Jrt Post Number: 776 Registered: 10-2008 |
Cordurb, If I might add a thought or two to what Colleen has already written and expounded on so well. I spent this past Friday evening/Saturday morning talking with SDA's about "spirit" and soul sleep. In Adventist terminology the beginning of their basis for soul sleep is Gen. 2:7. They say dust + breath of God = soul. When you die that breath goes to God. In their words it is like electricity and once you pull the plug the life "force" is gone. The Never-been Adventist that was studying with us said, "So you believe in pantheism?". I thought great question! Then the SDA's insinuated that this life force was in animals not necessarily plants ... so animals and mankind are alike? Then they tried to rationalize that one away ... Sorry, I am belaboring the point. ... Here is a text that helped me understand sin and "spirit":
What died the same day Adam and Eve ate the fruit? Something immediately died! Their spirit died. And when Colleen or Jeremy or others on the forum refer to a "dead" spirit - they don't mean cease to exist - but rather immediately the spirit of Adam and Eve "died" and they no longer sought after God. Notice their behavior - they hid when they heard Gods voice after they sinned. Rom. 3:10-18; is very clear about this "dead" spirit. Romans 3 says; No one understands or seeks after God. NO ONE. Eph. 2:1; speaks about "we" were dead in our transgressions and sins ... Eph. 2:4,5 ... "God, who is rich in mercy, made us alive with Christ EVEN when we were dead in transgressions. John 5:24 is real clear:
We, who were in Adam (seed) are born with a "dead" spirit. You see ... salvation is not about "behavior" as we were taught in Adventism. Salvation is about being brought from death to life ... we were DEAD - spiritually DEAD and no amount of right behavior could "wake" us up. Nor, I might add ... no amount of right behavior could "keep" us saved. It was this concept that totally caused me to repent and realize salvation is all about Jesus and not about me or behavior. I was a "dead" spirit and when Jesus drew me to Himself and gave me faith and I repented and believed that Jesus was all I needed for eternal life - I literally became "alive" to the things of God. Everything is planted on the foundation of Jesus ... Soul sleep does minimize sin - because it makes sin more of a physical thing than something spiritual. Hope I haven't muddied the waters ... Keri P.S. Those that believe in soul sleep cannot understand John 3 and the new birth that specifically talks about Spirit giving birth to spirit. | ||
| Grace_alone Registered user Username: Grace_alone Post Number: 1559 Registered: 6-2006  |
Anyone, What is the stock SDA answer for those verses? Do they have an answer? Leigh Anne | ||
| Jrt Registered user Username: Jrt Post Number: 778 Registered: 10-2008 |
Leigh Anne, Which verses? Keri | ||
| Grace_alone Registered user Username: Grace_alone Post Number: 1560 Registered: 6-2006 |
Oops, sorry Keri - I was referring to the original post with the verses from Thessalonians. What is the SDA stock answer for those? Leigh Anne | ||
| Jrt Registered user Username: Jrt Post Number: 779 Registered: 10-2008 |
Leigh Anne, I can only tell you what I thought and what these SDA's I was studying with on Friday thought ... I never "saw" that Jesus would bring with Him those that had fallen "asleep". In my mind He brought with Him that "life-giving" force - the breath that originally gave us life. I believe that is what this SDA couple also thought ... Jesus brings back with Him that "breath of life" the stuff that makes things come alive again. Not necessarily the immaterial part of a person. Keri | ||
| Animal Registered user Username: Animal Post Number: 660 Registered: 7-2008  |
I think Keri's explanation is correct. In a sense SDA believe that when Christ returns , He will "re-create" them all over again. They believe that when they die they cease to exist. Hope I made sense..I am not a smart animal...sigh. Must be all that rootbeer messing up wiff my brain cells.(((( BURP ))))..excuse me!! Animal | ||
| Pegg Registered user Username: Pegg Post Number: 309 Registered: 2-2006 |
I suppose that's a pretty good explanation of what I thought the resurrection would be. Mostly I didn't think about the details. Regarding this exact verse: I believed that it meant that Jesus would take the resurrected and living raptured saints back to heaven with him. I was in pure shock when I saw that the "with" meant that he would bring saints with him at the 2nd advent. BTW - I didn't read this anywhere or hear the argument. It just jumped off the page one day as I was reading. I Believe This Is How God Works. When You're Ready He Gives You Something. Pegg (Message edited by pegg on September 01, 2009) | ||
| Cordurb Registered user Username: Cordurb Post Number: 34 Registered: 4-2009 |
Thank you all. Very helpful to me. |
