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8thday
Registered user
Username: 8thday
Post Number: 1149
Registered: 11-2007
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 26, 2009 - 8:25 am: |     |
And the reason I have not jumped ship... which I failed to mention yesterday..
As I have shared my struggles off and on over time with the current church I go to, I have really had to take an inventory of myself and my motives for things. We have come to see that the a very large portion of our discontent is connected to the "system" of churchianity. Jumping to another church is not going to solve our discontent in that area - at least not with anything I've seen yet.
We believe we need the fellowship of others and there are genuine believers there, even if the system is broken. I think a home fellowship is just as valid an option, but no less vulnerable to imbalance and distraction.. maybe even more so at times. We see God working through many various imperfect attempts both in denominations and in homes. There is the ideal, and then there is God's grace and mercy in spite of ourselves - pouring out His blessing, knowing we are dust, as David says. So we stay where we are planted until we hear a sure word to move on - and I am having to learn to give up my agenda - praying for a time when God will hopefully give us the privilege and ability to serve Him in a way we are more aligned with - one we feel is a more full expression of a living BODY - not an "animated corpse" like one wise person here has described many churches.
However, to think that the problems with modern Christianity can be solved with changing the "system" or form is STILL OC thinking I have realized. I really believed if only this list of things would change, we would be alive. I now believe what we need more than anything else is God Himself - and genuine revival. God has brought revival many times to an imperfect system. The problem is more in our hearts, not our forms or differences in theology as we try to understand God who is so far above our ability to grasp. (not including cults of course). Revival has come to people who like the Puritans believed in the 10C and kept Sunday as the Sabbath. For those who trust in Christ and fall on their face and seek Him, regardless of their other shortfalls in knowledge, He will raise up and fill with boldness and passion for Him. Lives are changed and people saved. They will LOVE - have compassion for the sinner and each other.. this cannot be stopped by any external constraints or religious tradition. The trouble with the pastor you heard is not that his church is a business but that his heart is cold toward God. The symptom is sickening, but it's not the root - as I'm sure you see.
Ideologically Brent, my husband and I are probably pretty close to your perspective. It's a daily struggle to submit to a church where I see so much out of line with the way things SHOULD be, but it's teaching me things. I have to repeatedly give it to God. Since we made the decision to not chase after something we can't find right now, I have been overwhelmed with a grief for the church in America as a whole. There are so many issues that threaten its very survival. If you look at what's happened in Europe and how quickly we are following in their footsteps, all I want to do is scream WAKE UP. Unless God raises up intercessors and people are willing to cry out to him, no amount of change in any area of theology or practice is going to save us.
Sondra |
Jonvil
Registered user
Username: Jonvil
Post Number: 304
Registered: 4-2007
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 26, 2009 - 8:45 am: | |
Is it no wonder that those who seek to be part of a group for the purpose of WORSHIP are in despair?
God’s Church – All believers everywhere but will confine it to - a gathering of believers.
WORSHIP is their purpose.
Then: the unity of the early church was through the presence of the Holy Spirit, the ‘organization’ of the early church was through the gifts bestowed by the Holy Spirit, affirmed by the members.
They gathered to hear and to share the ‘Good News’: Jesus is Lord! Sinners are saved through faith in JESUS, in what HE did. Their best life eternal.
Man’s church – An edifice
MARKETING is their purpose.
Now: the unity of the American church is based on the presence of the Works Program, the organization of the church is through self bestowed ability, affirmed by a degree.
They gather to hear and share the ‘Good News’: Jesus is Great, but there’s so much more! Good people are saved through faith in WORKS (the ‘so much mores’), in what THEY do. Their best life now. |
Bskillet
Registered user
Username: Bskillet
Post Number: 543
Registered: 8-2008
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 26, 2009 - 9:09 am: | |
quote:However, to think that the problems with modern Christianity can be solved with changing the "system" or form is STILL OC thinking I have realized.
I agree. The American disease of churchianity is actually just a symptom itself of a church that is not focused on the Gospel itself, and instead has replaced it in many ways with either Old Covenant ideas or, in some cases, New Age concepts (prosperity gospel for instance).
quote:The trouble with the pastor you heard is not that his church is a business but that his heart is cold toward God. The symptom is sickening, but it's not the root - as I'm sure you see.
I agree. His church is a business to him because his heart is cold towards God. He probably has a head full of doctrine, but no real heart knowledge of the heart of God.
quote:Since we made the decision to not chase after something we can't find right now, I have been overwhelmed with a grief for the church in America as a whole.
The central problem with American Christianity is the "Great Awakening" that it came out of. I firmly disagree with those who think the Great Awakening was a genuine revival. It was rather a system of harsh moralism that replaced the Gospel of Jesus Christ with human ethical performance. American Christianity has never repented of this sin.
quote:If you look at what's happened in Europe and how quickly we are following in their footsteps, all I want to do is scream WAKE UP.
Sondra, look at the first centuries of Christianity. The church has always been at its best when it is a small minority within a hostile pagan world. Christianity has always thrived as a counter-cultural faith, not a religion of culture warriors. Jesus is not primarily concerned with quantity. His desire is quality. Instead of seeing itself as the vanguard of a movement to restore moralism in American, the church should see itself as an island of grace in an ungracious world.
The American church's survival is not at all threatened. Jesus said the gates of hell will not prevail against her. If He takes something away, it is only to replace it with something better.
What is increasingly threatened is the religious edifice of churchianity and the false American Gospel of moralism. But I see a lot of hope. There is a growing realization among American Christians that something is very wrong. There is an increasing realization among the American "laity" (hate that word) of what the Gospel really means. You see this all over the net, with bloggers like Darin Hufford and Michael Spencer and Chip Brogden. You see it from professional academic theologians like Michael Horton. You read it in the writings of Philip Yancey, and in books like unChristian by Kinnaman and Doyle.
There is a growing realization that this Gospel is not being taught in churches, and instead has been replaced with religious obligation and moralism, or a conservative political gospel, or a liberal social gospel, or more often a gospel of institution-building and spiritual abuse. The very fact that American Christians appear so very, very hungry for the words of grace is the best indication of a wake-up going on.
A lot of people have left traditional churches in the last few years for home-based ones. You are seeing more literature about these ideas, from the writings of Neil Cole to the books by Frank Viola. My point is not that home-based fellowships are the cure-all. I myself am not a member of one. As you said, we don't cure the problem by changing the system.
Rather, my point is this: George Barna was amazed when his surveys found that the majority of Christians who were leaving their traditional churches for these types of fellowships were not back-sliders or rebellious, as is often reported, but those who were the most spiritually committed to Christ. My point is that an increasing number of believers are realizing that the American church is not giving them edification, and they are taking the responsibility of their spiritual edification on themselves, and that in and of itself is a very good sign. That underlying impulse is sure to take place within the more traditional churches as well, eventually. But their structure provides an initial inertia against it that will take time to overcome.
With the rise of NCT, you are seeing an increasing realization by Christians of their identity in Jesus Christ. There is an increasing realization that Jesus called us to freedom and not the bondage of Sinai. As such, we are finding more and more writers who are recovering a truth that has been neglected for centuries: Christianity is not, in its essence, a religion. It is, instead, an intimacy with the Triune God. This I find to be very good because it means people are discovering more and more what it means when they receive the adoption as Father's little children, and understanding what that means in their daily lives.
I am not at all pessimistic about what will happen to Christianity. I am instead very optimistic that we are on the brink of a true Gospel revival. One not characterized by the showy and emotionalistic moralism of Finney, but an actual heart revival as more and more American Christians realize Father's love for them. It may not be a revival that causes institutions and buildings to grow, but it will be a revival that brings a revitalize Jesus-centered spirituality. It won't necessarily be a revival that focuses on dry doctrine for doctrine's sake (the chief flaw of the Protestant Reformation), but rather a revival that focuses on seeking after Father's heart. |
8thday
Registered user
Username: 8thday
Post Number: 1153
Registered: 11-2007
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 26, 2009 - 9:42 am: | |
How do you back up this statement?
quote:The central problem with American Christianity is the "Great Awakening" that it came out of. I firmly disagree with those who think the Great Awakening was a genuine revival. It was rather a system of harsh moralism that replaced the Gospel of Jesus Christ with human ethical performance. American Christianity has never repented of this sin.
If this is true (and I'm not saying it isn't) this would really shed some light on some paradoxical things I have not been able to reconcile in my own mind. I tend to believe the revival was real, but what people did with it afterward.. trying to prop up what only God can do - with human effort - turned it on its head. But I have not had the time or means to study it that deeply.
I am all for hard, convicting preaching that WITH the Holy Spirit - reveals people's sin to them - their true condition and brings them to repentance. Peter - exhibit A. I am not a fan of this being the ongoing atmosphere between God and man after a person is born again as a child of God. That's where grace and Father Love take over, not as a license to sin but as a motivation to be transformed into His likeness. What I am seeing is two camps who want it all one way or the other and I see both as relevant in their proper time and place. Not having time to read umpteen books on theology - just trying to wade through all the voices at a level I can grasp.
Many good points and I sincerely hope I can at some point share your optimism.
At any rate.. I share our position as a unique personal trial - not a recommendation to everyone. I'm sure it's the refining we need more than anything.
Wish my hubby and I had time to sit down with you over a cup of coffee or a good Belgium Ale. =)
Blessings! |
Pegg
Registered user
Username: Pegg
Post Number: 251
Registered: 2-2006
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 26, 2009 - 9:49 am: | |
quote:The central problem with American Christianity is the "Great Awakening" that it came out of. I firmly disagree with those who think the Great Awakening was a genuine revival. It was rather a system of harsh moralism that replaced the Gospel of Jesus Christ with human ethical performance. American Christianity has never repented of this sin.
This is absolutely the case. If you haven't read Charles Finney then you should.
Sheds A Whole New Light On "Ellen Was Just A Product Of Her Times."
Pegg |
Bskillet
Registered user
Username: Bskillet
Post Number: 545
Registered: 8-2008
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 26, 2009 - 10:25 am: | |
quote:How do you back up this statement?
I should specify the Second Great Awakening that happened from 1790 to 1840, although there was a lot of legalism taught in the first Great Awakening that led into the Second. Read the Beems' book It's Okay Not to Be a Seventh-Day Adventist. They set the social context for the rise of Adventism in the results of the moralism of the Second Great Awakening. The goal of that movement was to create a morally perfect society in order to get Jesus to return and reign in His millenial kingdom. All the language in Adventism about "getting ready for heaven," or "preparing for Jesus to come," comes from the Second Great Awakening. It all implied that there was something other than believing in Jesus that people had to do to be ready for heaven.
quote:Wish my hubby and I had time to sit down with you over a cup of coffee or a good Belgium Ale. =)
Let me know on FB if you're ever in Chicago. I'm a Sam Adams man myself.
(Message edited by bskillet on August 26, 2009) |
Pegg
Registered user
Username: Pegg
Post Number: 253
Registered: 2-2006
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 26, 2009 - 11:15 am: | |
quote:They set the social context for the rise of Adventism in the results of the moralism of the Second Great Awakening. The goal of that movement was to create a morally perfect society in order to get Jesus to return and reign in His millenial kingdom. All the language in Adventism about "getting ready for heaven," or "preparing for Jesus to come," comes from the Second Great Awakening. It all implied that there was something other than believing in Jesus that people had to do to be ready for heaven.
Exactly what I was talking about, Brent.
I see NCT as an exceptionally hopeful development.
It seems to me that Evangelicalism has struggled (in some cases less, rather than more ) to grow out of this, and so we see NCT arising out of the CT of that era while the writings of Ellen White provide an unshakable anchor to SDA.
Pegg |
Jeremy
Registered user
Username: Jeremy
Post Number: 2967
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 26, 2009 - 11:51 am: | |
Yes, I was going to say that we need to distinguish between the First Great Awakening and the Second Great Awakening. Just take a look at this list of prominent figures in the Second Great Awakening, and notice all of the false teachers, cult leaders, and false prophets!: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Great_Awakening#Prominent_figures
Jeremy
(Message edited by Jeremy on August 26, 2009) |
Jonvil
Registered user
Username: Jonvil
Post Number: 307
Registered: 4-2007
| | Posted on Thursday, August 27, 2009 - 6:17 am: | |
Bskillet, a bit OT but thanks for this statement:
quote:"dry doctrine for doctrine's sake (the chief flaw of the Protestant Reformation)"
I’ve needed a succinct summary of why I stopped attending the Reformed SBC and you just supplied it!
John |
8thday
Registered user
Username: 8thday
Post Number: 1154
Registered: 11-2007
| | Posted on Friday, August 28, 2009 - 7:24 am: | |
Wow - great info and food for thought! Thanks. I am constantly having to go back and and rethink stuff. I am SO thankful for this forum and all the brilliant minds here. There is nowhere else I can go to process the continuing questions.
Sondra |
Seekinglight
Registered user
Username: Seekinglight
Post Number: 367
Registered: 3-2009
| | Posted on Friday, August 28, 2009 - 7:45 am: | |
Charles Finney!! Peg, you're correct. EGW's writings are full of his unbiblical, abominable ideas. American evanglicalism is still reeling from all that 2nd Great Awakening nonsense.
Remember the prohibition movement during that time period? Ugh! That's the first thing that got me really questioning EGW was her involvment with that movement. It was so deceptive (a huge campaign was manufactured to lead folks to believe even a drop of alcohol was "poison"!), and it treated the alcohol addiction as the problem rather than the poverty and social problems that fostered the addiction. Furthermore, as we know it put a whole lot of $$ in the hands of criminals. I wondered why a prophet of God wouldn't know better than to support such madness. I wonder no more... |
Pegg
Registered user
Username: Pegg
Post Number: 273
Registered: 2-2006
| | Posted on Friday, August 28, 2009 - 8:22 pm: | |
Someone posted a link to some of Finney's writings and I followed it. I almost wanted to barf! It was exactly what I had been taught all my life. At that moment I knew that the prophet only echoed the sentiments of her time, God said I should not be afraid of her.
It Doesn't Take Visions To Do This!
Pegg |
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