| Author | Message | ||
| 8thday Registered user Username: 8thday Post Number: 1114 Registered: 11-2007  |
.. so we visited a church Wednesday night and the women's Bible study was going through a workbook study on Worship.. based on... The Sanctuary. Not only do I hate workbook studies, but well, I've studied the sanctuary before somewhere. lol. I know there's alot to learn from it, but I'm still not ready to go back through it again. This book... which I don't know the name of, was teaching that the there were FOUR things in the ark - the manna, Aarons rod, the 10C, and then a copy of the WHOLE Law. I didn't actually see the book with my own eyes, but this is what the teacher was saying. So... my understanding is the tablets of stone, the covenant, the testimony - the 10 Words - are all the same thing, and include the several chapters given from Exodus 20 on at Mt. Sinai? Am I off here? How in the world does anyone get there were two different laws IN the ark? The restated law in Deut. was written down and placed on the side of the ark, correct? It's so amazing to me how EVANGELICALS don't get the Law thing. When we came out of the Hebrew Roots, I really had this naive idea that Christians who went to church on Sunday all understood the Law of the New Covenant. What a shock! I'm not shocked anymore.. just frustrated - and if you try to explain it - they don't understand why you are making an issue out of it, and they are just as stuck on the 10C as SDA's in many cases. How did the 10C law become a god?? Anyway... if anyone has any insight on what was actually written on what went into the ark, please do share. I know it's a little confusing when you start to compare all the scriptures on it. I know it was more than the 10C - but does anyone know exactly what? | ||
| Seekinglight Registered user Username: Seekinglight Post Number: 322 Registered: 3-2009 |
I'm with you on this, Sondra. The reason Adventism is still flourishing is because of the inconsitencies in evangelical theology in regards to the role of the Law. | ||
| 8thday Registered user Username: 8thday Post Number: 1116 Registered: 11-2007 |
I tried to tell a Reform Baptist pastor that when we first came out - that their theology of the 10C is on of the things that gives Adventism its leg to stand on... but I don't think it made it in one ear long enough to even go out the other. Irrelevant AND female. haha. | ||
| Bskillet Registered user Username: Bskillet Post Number: 502 Registered: 8-2008 |
Evangelicals still believe in the 10 C's because they want to believe that they can earn righteousness by their efforts. That is where all this comes from. Christianity has allowed the uncoverted to write its doctrines for far too long. The idea that the 10 C's were somehow separate from the Law and constituted "God's eternal moral law" originated with the pagan-influenced Church Fathers, who evidently understood nothing of Judaism and could only frame the gospel in terms of pagan Greek philosophy. | ||
| Brian3 Registered user Username: Brian3 Post Number: 226 Registered: 8-2005  |
Nobody since Moses has ever seen what was actually written on the stone tablets. I may have to reread it but I understand it to say that the stone tablets with the 10 "Words" written on it went into the Ark of the Covenant as the basic covenant summary. The only way that we have any idea what was written on the stone tablets of the covenant is because the original "Book" of the law, comprising Exodus 20-24 including the 10 "words", was written down by Moses and placed beside the ark. I found it interesting the first time I noticed that it was the book and the people that were sprinkled with blood at the covenant ratification ceremony before the stone tablets even existed. This "Book" of the Law was apparently added too over time by Moses(i.e. Leviticus). I think others later may have added also (Joshua, David, Solomon.... etc). Deuteronomy was a recapitulation of the law, as it were, before they entered the promised land. It appears to me that Moses added to the "Book" of the law at this time also. In Christ, Brian | ||
| Seekinglight Registered user Username: Seekinglight Post Number: 323 Registered: 3-2009 |
Hey, I heard a quote by Dietrich Bonhoeffer the other day that said basically that America has not had a Reformation, and its Christianity is polluted through and through with righteousness by works or righteousness by faith + works. Basically American Christianity is no more than "ethical behavior with the help of God from time to time" <----my interpretation there. | ||
| Bskillet Registered user Username: Bskillet Post Number: 503 Registered: 8-2008 |
Yep, Bonhoeffer said American Christianity is "Protestantism without the Reformation." EDIT: Found the quote Sounds like he's describing Adventism. ;) (Message edited by bskillet on August 07, 2009) | ||
| Animal Registered user Username: Animal Post Number: 611 Registered: 7-2008  |
Quote... " God has founded his church beyond religion and beyond ethics....In American theology, Christianity is still essentially religion and ethics...." Such a kernel of truth indeed!!! I still cant figure out why the church today cant accept the Simplicity of the Gospel. Animal | ||
| Seekinglight Registered user Username: Seekinglight Post Number: 324 Registered: 3-2009 |
I'll give you my theory, Animal, for whatever it's worth. There are sincere Christians who truly believe that all the things that God commands of us, He will help us carry out. And we must "cooperate" with Him in His purposes. As another person we all know has said, "...all God's biddings are His enablings". This was one of my biggest stumbling blocks when I was early in the process of studying my way out of Adventism. I couldn't imagine why God was commanding all this stuff that I couldn't EVER do. I thought that was really unfair of Him & it made no sense. Finally, the H.S. broke through my muddled thinking. The purpose of those unreasonable commands was to speedily bring me to the end of my resources and become desperate for a Savior! Can I hear an amen in the house?  | ||
| Philharris Registered user Username: Philharris Post Number: 1765 Registered: 5-2007  |
AMEN! | ||
| Indy4now Registered user Username: Indy4now Post Number: 699 Registered: 2-2008  |
AMEN SISTA! | ||
| Indy4now Registered user Username: Indy4now Post Number: 700 Registered: 2-2008 |
btw Sondra... I did that whole book on my own. I know which study you're talking about. That's the only part I disagreed with in the whole book from what I remember. The Bible clearly says that the book of Law was placed on the "side" of the ark. For someone like me who didn't understand all the rituals of the OC... that book was really helpful and insightful to me. It was really the first time that I saw that all the offerings that the Israelites offered were actually their way of worshipping God. They offered sacrifices everyday... we worship God everyday. The study also helped me understand clearly why the IJ was not the "reality" of the shadow presented in the OT. It also helped me to clarify what the different offerings were for. There is an older gentleman in my Sunday school class that gets it... he's always telling us that the OC is done... gone... not a part of the new. He always seems to say this as if he is going to get stomped on by somebody. I jump right in and say that he's absolutely right. There are a few that remain quiet when he says this... maybe closet believers still wanting to hold onto those tablets... vivian | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 5337 Registered: 9-2006  |
I hate to burst bubbles here, but the feeling I get is that every former I know seems to equate the church with the stick churches and their buildings. This has bothered me for quite a while, but I don't know what to do about it or how to speak about it. The stick churches is only an outward indication that there is a church. You keep going out here to these stick churches expecting to find what? You go out here to these stick buildings expecting to find the invisible church? It is a spiritual building. What? Maybe 70% of organized religion doesn't even believe in the baptism in the Holy Ghost? Dryer than a bone and twice plucked up and the Holy Ghost couldn't get in there with a pry bar. What? 80% of these people view their stick buildings as THE church? To them its a Sunday gig, a routine and they pick up and go down to THE church, do their routine and come on back home. The first thing people want to do is organize THE church, put in in one spot and say "This is it right here." But you can't do that with Christ body which is a spiritual entity, you can't hold it in your hands no more than you can cup water, it has a way of breaking out and going to the far reaches of the earth to introduce Jesus Christ to the down and outer, to the lonely, to the forsaken, to the bruised and to the captive. It is lived out daily in countless lives, the ones who have a spiritual relationship with Jesus on a 24/7 basis. They listen intently for his voice. The stick buildings cannot contain his body which is placed within the human heart and thus reins in the human heart. His church is not made with hands and is not manufactured by the paper mills that grind out sermons and Sunday school lessons, his church is contained in the heart and is triumphant. You keep coming out of Adventism and say "Where, oh, where is the church? How do I find the church?" But if somebody even mentions being Baptized in the Holy Ghost you go ape. Yeah bro, give me Sunday school lessons, but we don't want to hear about that tongues stuff. If anybody mentions it, you come up with the lame excuse that not everybody speaks in tongues, therefore it doesn't indicate baptism in the Holy Ghost. Well...there are whole organizations that don't speak in tongues, don't you think there would at least be a few? But no, you got to continue to deny the baptism in the Holy Ghost or explain it away with theological mumbo jumbo. What it is, is theological horse pucky. But you want to corral the whole situation and stick it in a neat box, slap a label on it and say "that's it." Then when somebody does finally admit that the promise is an airtight peace of the Bible, they prey for tongues, "God give me the tongues" Idiots! Sitting around praying for tongues! Jesus gave orders to wait for the day of Pentecost, what do you think he told them to wait for? To become a believer? They already were believers which is the prerequisite for salvation. Through his word he is still giving orders to wait for your day of Pentecost. Well...I had my day of Pentecost, you don't want yours? Fine, I'll take your share too since your determined to let it go to waste. The true church is reaching out, going out and touching lives every day of the week, the true church dwells in the human spirit, the true church never sleeps, but dwells continuously in the human heart. Colossians 2:6-20 tells the story. If I come along and tell you, you need to be baptized in the Holy Spirit, you poo poo me and argue with me and even make snide remarks at me. let me tell you, your not poo pooing me, your poo pooing Gods Holy spirit and his word, having your mind darkened by organized religion you become fools. You can't put the reason and the blame for Adventism still existing today off on the stick churches neither, the reason it still exist today is because of the darkness of their own hearts. True Christianity boils right down to the individual heart, your hearts and my heart, the buck stops here. I am tired of being silent on the most needful thing in the Christian world today, which is the Baptism in the Holy Ghost, you minimize it, chastise it and sluff it off. But when you are baptized in the Holy Ghost your spiritual eyes will be opened providing you stick with the word of God, if you don't your liable to be flapping your arms and clucking like a chicken, but that can't be much worse than sitting on a pew like a big lump of cement. Least they are clucking for Jesus while you ain't clucking at all. You want to know why you keep going out there and not finding what you are looking for? I'll tell you why your not finding it, it is because of unbelief, that's why your not finding it. The baptism in the Holy Ghost is received by faith, just as you receive anything else from God. You ain't going to receive diddly from God accept through faith. when you get the baptism in the Holy Spirit you get the fire shut up in your bones, it burns until you begin preaching the Gospel, reaching out and helping people. You say to me, Well, I got baptized in the Holy Ghost and I didn't speak in tongues, well shame on you! Shame on you for not obeying God, shame on you for your lack of faith!Shame on you for your fear and lack of faith.Shame on you for putting your puny mind before and ahead of God. Quit going out there looking in these stick buildings for the church, the body of Christ, it is not contained in buildings made with hands, that cannot contain it, it is too big to be contained in theology. It is contained within your spirit and mine. It is only contained in those who worship him in spirit and in truth.It is obtained by kneeolgy, not theology, by humbling oneself before a mighty god, and submitting all that you are to him, he don't want to take a backseat and when you submit to him your lack of knowledge and go to him in simple faith he will baptize you in his Holy Spirit. Matthew 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire: Matthew 3:12 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will thoroughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire. His Spirit will burn up the chaff of unbelief, everything that is not of him he his spirit will burn up. Adventism will burn up in the unquenchable fire of his spirit. The thing is that we take that same Spirit within us and we are not burned and the fire is not quenched, it burns away our pride and our foolishness, but we ourselves are not burned. Moses said, How is it that this bush burns yet is not withered? How is it that this old bush burns and is not withered? Because he has set the fire in his chosen vessels. This fire is what keeps you alive, while it burns others to crispy critters. We burn and yet are not consumed because this Holy Spirit contained in these earthen vessels is the very life blood, while those who are not of his Spirit become toast, ashes, chafe to be blown away on his threshing floor. Phil, you felt like God had something for you and so you came down to see me, not knowing what to expect and all you found was a far from perfect old man, but I'll tell you what God has for you and that is to be baptized in his Holy Spirit by faith. You want to come back down here and I will pray with you, you don't want it you ain't going to get it, but friend, your going to have to humble yourself before God like a little child and he will give it to you. You best be ready to open up to him without a speck of pride and doubt. You mistrust him one little bit, you have a speck of pride left in you when you appear before him, you ain't getting diddly. As the old rock and roll song goes "You got to lay it all down." and thats when you will get something you never, ever, thought was possible for this human vessel to contain. You have got to not be ashamed of the tears that you will shed, because brother, you will shed a bucket full. I detect the humbleness in you and the desire for all God has for you and you can have it, but you have to be humble and by faith reach out and lay your soul bare before him. That's what you came down here for and I've known it all along and if you ever get hungry enough to receive it you'll be back. you wanted to ask about the Holy Spirit, but you wanted to figure it out on your own and that is stubborn pride, I'm telling you, you can't figure it out and you can't dictate to God how it will happen. Any of you are going to have to lay all the pride down you ever had and be humble before God like a little child and you can't withhold anything from him and expect him to give you this baptism. Bringing your pride before him is like bringing a big pile of dirt and laying that at his feet, I tell you he is mighty God, Lord of all and everything and pride cannot stand before him. You have to empty yourself of all pride before he will give you this precious gift. River | ||
| 8thday Registered user Username: 8thday Post Number: 1117 Registered: 11-2007 |
In the Hebrew Roots, they really have the perspective of Judaism and its assumed the entire Torah was written on the tablets, which I never bought even when we were in it. I really gravitate toward what Brian said - that Ex. 20-24 were a summary and THIS was the 10 Words - not just the introductory 10 commands themselves. But also see it maybe not be possible to really know the exactly for sure as you said Brian. Then the whole thing - which yes was continually added to, esp. details of the priesthood, etc.. were written down too in the Book of the Law. It all fits together that way. I will go back and see for myself when I have time. Just wanted a quick easy answer and taking someone else's word for it!! haha. JUST kidding. I just know there's some smart people around this forum. Yes, Vivian, I'm sure that book would be very beneficial, but I had to stifle a groan myself! ha. None of the people in the class seemed to have really any grasp of it either, and some commented they never read the OT. That was one of the things we often heard in the HRM.. "We never studied the OT!!" So people being prone to extremes in response to other extremes - it just creates more imbalance. The Bonhoffer quote I find very interesting!!! I am struggling right now to reconcile the extreme fear based/conviction preaching of the holiness revival preachers of the past (and some of the present) with those who focus nearly entirely on the initmate, love-motivated relationship to God. Both approaches seem to have validity in many ways. God has used the fiery conviction preaching of holiness to bring many to repentance. Some of those men were so full of the Holy Spirit that people were convicted just by being in their presence. But the essence of their message underneath does seem to be very works oriented, and has the affect of causing SAVED people to maybe doubt their standing with God too. I'm hearing some of their words bleeding through in EGW's writings, as most of what she wrote was NOT original in anyway. These were the ideas floating around in her days, during those times of revivals. I am intrigued by the connection I'm beginning to see. So.. I am developing a theory which I want to study out in the life of Christ.. There is warning of wrath and pointing out of sin in those who think themselves righteous, and there is love for the hopeless sinner, as well as great encouragement and security for the sons and daughters of the kingdom. I'm wondering if it plays out like this: Pharisees - those who are trusting in their religious trappings, and their titles (now it's denominations instead of hereditary merit) and have no idea what it means to repent and submit to God, and trust HIM, not their own pride... These Christ rebuked and berated with hard words (and much of the modern American church may need this message too - I don't know. It needs SOMETHING to wake it up out of denial.) The sinful outcast - He loved and did not condemen - but offered them hope, reconciliation, and deliverance Disciples/Sons - teaching, patience, forgiveness, commission, etc.. Loved them, and asked for their love in return.. "Peter do you love me..." Preaching that offers the privileges of Sons to all, speaking as if everyone has this privilege without going through the new birth - is wrong. Preaching the fear and wrath of God on all unbelief and false righteousness without also encouraging the Sons - (putting a false guilt, doubt, and condemnation on them) is wrong And any "ministry" that condemns the lost sinner.. (i.e. protests with signs that say "God hates fags) is wrong I really want to study this out - It seems all these imbalances have really bad problems. The first extreme produces legalism and a focus on us and our struggle with sin, and seems to invariably confuse our standing with God on our ability to maintain some rather vaguely defined level of sanctification. (I have heard this recently from two teachers who were NOT SDA) The second removes the truth about our true condition without Christ and gives people a false security without going through their own personal death on the cross of Christ, and spiritual birth into new life. I find a great deal of truth in both perspectives - and they are both needed - IN BALANCE, and applied to the right audience. I would like to hear these people who have set a one-dimensional approach to preaching consider the diverse needs that may be present in a single audience. Maybe a true reformation has never come here because we started out with one wrong extreme which has backlashed into an equally wrong faith that costs people nothing. I believe God will bring about His Will - and works in spite of us - but it's so hard to figure out how to fit all the pieces together. Am I way off here? Just thinking out loud... =) Sondra | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 5338 Registered: 9-2006 |
Sondra, your way off in Texas, I don't know about being way off You said: I would like to hear these people who have set a one-dimensional approach to preaching consider the diverse needs that may be present in a single audience. Do you think that this is possible? A sort of one fits all sermon? How can a preacher address all the diversity of needs in a single audience of, say, 40 people? if the preacher is preaching what the Holy Spirit lays on his heart to preach, isn't he doing what he is called to do? And lets say this super smart preacher addresses every need in that audience, is he going by what the Holy Spirit laid on his heart? or is he going by his own puny mind? River | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 5339 Registered: 9-2006 |
And what is keeping the folks from bringing their needs to the group for prayer after the preacher has preached his heart? They all got broke legs or something? River | ||
| Brian3 Registered user Username: Brian3 Post Number: 228 Registered: 8-2005 |
Just to be clear Sondra. I think Deuteronomy is very clear that ONLY the 10 "Words" were on the stone tablets. And that what was on the tablets was the summary. At the beginning of the whole process though Moses wrote all of Exodus 20-24 in the Book of the Law including the 10 Words. In Christ, Brian | ||
| Bskillet Registered user Username: Bskillet Post Number: 506 Registered: 8-2008 |
Perhaps that's why a sermon was not a regular part of first century church gatherings. 1 Cor 14 says everyone was taking part. The idea of one holy man orchestrating the whole thing comes from the Old Covenant perspectives of human mediation by priests, human priests acting as a buffer between men and God. | ||
| Hec Registered user Username: Hec Post Number: 411 Registered: 3-2009 |
The closest I've come in this forum to read a post written in EGW style is the above tirade about the HS by River. For someone who has never-been, you are very good at imitating her style, and her way of thinking. Hec | ||
| Asurprise Registered user Username: Asurprise Post Number: 954 Registered: 7-2007 |
Hebrews 9:4 names the three items that were in the ark: "...the golden pot that had the manna, Aaron's rod that budded, and the tablets of the covenant." Did you notice that ALL those things had to do with death? The manna, because all who ate it (except Caleb and Joshua) died in the wilderness; Aaron's rod that budded, because of all who died in Korah's rebellion (Numbers 16 & 17); and the 10 commandments, because no one can keep them. Notice that 2 Corinthians 3:7 contrasts "the ministry of death, written and engraved on stones" with "the ministry of the Spirit." The mercy seat covers death. (Also the mercy seat represents Jesus.) Deut. 10:2 and Deut. 31:26 also mention the tablets of stone being placed in the ark and the "Book of the Law" being placed "beside the ark." I'm so glad that we who are saved go by faith into the Most Holy Place in Heaven! Hebrews 6:19,20 |
