| Author | Message | ||
| Seekinglight Registered user Username: Seekinglight Post Number: 293 Registered: 3-2009 |
Once more, I would like to request some feedback on a conversation that my husband had with one of our SDA friends last evening when they got together to exercise. He claimed that Enoch and Elijah had to be sinless to stand in order to be translated into the presence of God. He defined this sinless state is "not actively sinning at the time of translation". Thus, he concluded that we must be sinless at the moment of translation into God's presence as well. I know this concept is from EGW and my husband believes that this sounds Catholic in origin as well. (Catholics must have a priest present at the moment of death so the person can confess any last sins before dying). Ok, so here's the question... Enoch and Elijah were translated before Jesus' atonement was complete. Thus, their sins hadn't been paid for yet. So, how could they be in the presence of God in that state? Did God make an exception for them, based on their good works? This doesn't seem logical. Or...is this one of the mysteries that the Scriptures don't unravel for us? | ||
| Bskillet Registered user Username: Bskillet Post Number: 477 Registered: 8-2008 |
The effects of the Cross are timeless, stretching back to the very beginning and forward for eternity. God ordained the Cross before He even created us, meaning all men could be saved by the Cross of Jesus even before He actually died. It was a fact in the mind of God long before it was a fact in the books of history. Perhaps your husband can ask his friend to demonstrate his perfectionistic ideology from the Bible alone. He won't be able to, of course. | ||
| Jrt Registered user Username: Jrt Post Number: 717 Registered: 10-2008 |
Seekinglight, Just to piggyback on what Bskillet has written. God is outside of space and time ... that fits the texts Brent has mentioned above ... Therefore, Enoch and Elijah could be in heaven, because God (Who is outside of space and time) already knew that Christ would pay the subsitutionary penal price of our salvation. God is not bound by time or physical circumstances. Therefore, as the text above mentions - before the foundation of the world - Christ died. Pretty mind-boggling. I believe there is also a text in Romans that fits - this question. Can't put my finger on it currently. Keri | ||
| Psalm107v2 Registered user Username: Psalm107v2 Post Number: 375 Registered: 10-2008  |
There is nothing in the Bible to indicate these men were sinless at the time of their death. Enoch would appear to have done a Uturn after the birth of Methusalah but did 300 years of walking with God purify him the way the purgatory doctrine teaches?? I doubt it Moses-off the top of my head 1 murder 2 disobeyed the circumcision law and his sons almost died because of it 3 disobeyed direct orders from God to speak to the rock but struck it instead Also-God only allowed Moses to see the Promised Land and not enter it at the time of His death--God still had a consequence for Moses Elijah, after an amazing miracle went off and hid in fear and with all the Bible's admonishans to fear not, Elijah sure was not walking perfectly So no Seekinglight this idea is not logical at all Enoch | ||
| Philharris Registered user Username: Philharris Post Number: 1749 Registered: 5-2007  |
Excerpts from Hebrews Chapter Eleven (ESV): V.1: Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen. V.4: By faith Abel offered to God a more acceptable sacrifice than Cain V.5: By faith Enoch was taken up V.6: without faith it is impossible to please him (God) V.7: By faith Noah…constructed an ark V.8: By faith Abraham obeyed…knowing where he was going V.11: By faith Sarah herself received power to conceive V.13: These all died in faith, not having received the things promised V.17: By faith Abraham, when he was tested, offered up Isaac V.21: By faith Jacob… V.22: By faith Joseph… V.24: By faith Moses… V.29: By faith the people crossed the Red Sea V.30: By faith the walls of Jericho fell down V.31: By faith Rahab the prostitute did not perish All those listed were saved because of faith. There isn't the slightest mention of any of them being perfect at any time of their lives. All we know of Rahab, for instance, is that she was a whore who protected the spies by telling lies and that she is in the genealogy of our Lord. She acted in faith even though she was far from being a perfect person. When we look at the life of King David, who was a man "after the heart of God" yet sinned in a mighty way, we can know there is hope for each of us. During, before or after the life of Christ on this earth and his death on the Cross, it is and always has been by faith. Our hope is founded on the works and perfection of Jesus Christ. Fearless Phil | ||
| Animal Registered user Username: Animal Post Number: 589 Registered: 7-2008  |
Phil...If this was CARM, I would give ya 100 points for your post. Good observation my friend | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 10176 Registered: 12-2003  |
Adventists just "don't get" the timeless, eternal quality of Jesus' sacrifice and of His being the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. I agree with the posts above...and I also thought of asking the Adventist to prove from the Bible the need for sinlessness before one can be taken directly to heaven (er--that would be "raptured"...) Colleen | ||
| Seekinglight Registered user Username: Seekinglight Post Number: 294 Registered: 3-2009 |
Thank you, everyone. My husband answered our SDA friend with two things: 1. This idea that we must be perfect before we're translated is not Biblical. 2. The Bible doesn't specify that Enoch and Elijah were indeed sinless before translation. However, the issue did get me questioning because there seems to be something special that happened after Christ's death in the physical world. The veil was torn, we have direct access to the Father, we have the Holy Spirit, etc. These are special privileges that the Israelites weren't able to enjoy because Christ hadn't died yet. It seems that God made a special exception for some individuals like Elijah and the reasons why are not evident yet. Thank you for your insights. | ||
| Animal Registered user Username: Animal Post Number: 590 Registered: 7-2008 |
Elijah and Enoch were friends of God. So He decide to call them home..simple as that. Adventism thinks that they got God figured out. They put God in a box. Such is a dangerous position to take. Salvation is of God, truly an act of mercy, not our behavior. Adventism cant seem to understand that. Animal | ||
| Seekinglight Registered user Username: Seekinglight Post Number: 296 Registered: 3-2009 |
Animal, we know that we can always count on you to cut right thru the fluff. I appreciate your simplicity. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 10177 Registered: 12-2003 |
Exactly so, Animal! And yes, Seekinglight, Jesus' death did affect time; we are indwelt now by the Holy Spirit because Jesus offered the sacrifice that opened the new, living way to the Father: His blood. God does deal with us differently according to our place in history--but He doesn't deal differently in terms of salvation. That has ALWAYS been by faith in Him alone. Once we belong to Him, however, we now receive more from God than did the individual Israelites, for example. We have, as Paul says in 1 Cor 2:16, the mind of Christ. That mind is the result of being indwelt by God Himself. God dwells within us, not within a central, man-made temple. His glory is in us, not in the Holy of Holies in Jerusalem. But none of these differences means God saved people differently. Salvation has never been by perfection; it has always been by faith. Colleen | ||
| Handmaiden Registered user Username: Handmaiden Post Number: 63 Registered: 7-2008 |
The Bible says that Alllll have sinned. Allllll have fallen short of the glory of God, Alllll of us have gone astray, each one has turned to his own way and not one, no not one sought after God. God sought after us ...when we were lost in our sins and were His enemies...He sent Jesus to die for us. I do think that Enoch and Elijah fit into the category of ALLLL have sinned, as we alll do. No amount of "good works" can erase or cancel out or even dimminsh a little bit the horrible stain of even ONE sin. What can wash away my sin.....NOTHING but the BLOOD of JESUS. Without the shedding of blood there can be NO remission of sin. There is NONE good but God. But Enoch and Elijah are supposed to have reached sinless perfection !!!! Oh, so little of the Word goes so far in refuting false doctrine. If only these people would drink from the pure water of God's living Word instead of the polluted and defiled cistern of egw writings. Father, i pray for these people, lost in this total deception of self righteousness. i cry out to You to send a total dryness into their reading of her lies...let them find no more comfort or satisfaction than a mirage brings a thirsty man in the desert...cause them to hunger and thirst and seek desperately after true righteousness, after the living, refreshing, life sustaining water of Your Words alone. in the name of JESUS, the only name by which we can enter into salvation. love to all handmaiden . | ||
| Seekinglight Registered user Username: Seekinglight Post Number: 297 Registered: 3-2009 |
Amen! Handmaiden, thank you for compassion and love you demonstrate to those caught deception. | ||
| Handmaiden Registered user Username: Handmaiden Post Number: 74 Registered: 7-2008 |
Seekinglight thank you for your kind words.  i have a heart for those snared in deception...because i was once one of them. i was raised in a false religion of dead works. i was sincere and content in what i believed to be the "truth". But for the love and compassion of the one who told me ....i shudder to speculate...where i would be........ oh, i did not want to hear it...i fought tooth and nail and clung to what i had so deeply invested my life in.... i did not come easily to the genuine Truth of the Gospel. There was a bloody battle to free me from the shackles of self-righteousness. i was a verrrry "good" girl, after all i was earning my way to heaven. i was a catholic like Paul was a Jew...if anyone was going to make it to heaven by being good ... well, i thought i had a pretty good chance of spending as little time as possible in purgatory.... how proud and arrogant...how blind i was...so deceived...so utterly foolish...... Try to convince the person i WAS that my "good works" were filthy rags filled with pus from a lepers rotting flesh! That is what the person who led me to the Lord (Don) told me !!!!! IMAGINE my shock and reaction !!!!!!!! Bless his heart, it did make an impression on me. Don opened the Word of God to me for the first time in my life. i was raised in religion but knew NOTHING of the Word of God...NOTHING of the Saviour's love for me. i will be forever grateful that he was willing to take the time, that he was willing to engage in the battle to set me free, that he was willing to lay down his life for me, that through him, JESUS could touch my heart. HE TOUCHED ME!!!! JESUS touched me!!!! Oh the JOY that flooded my soul. i thought i had need of nothing ...until i realized i did not even have LIFE...i was a walking dead person. Its true the dead know nothing. The spiritually dead know NOTHING of the love and compassion and tender mercies of the Lord Jesus. They know NOTHING of His sacrifice of His blood poured out for them of the FREE GIFT of salvation He offers, of being translated from death to life of being born again a new creature in Christ. NOTHING of LIFE. They know nothing of the ABUNDANT life Jesus came to give us. i pray with my whole heart that Jesus will touch the DEAD through you today. i pray that Jesus will so fill us all with His love and His mercy and His copassion that His river of LIFE would overflow our boundaries and new life would spring up where ever we go. handmaiden | ||
| Brian3 Registered user Username: Brian3 Post Number: 224 Registered: 8-2005  |
Would you mind if I throw a wrench into the works?  Hebrews 11 is called "The Faith Hall of Fame" and I agree all listed showed faith, but, were they all saved?
Your thoughts? In Christ, Brian | ||
| Animal Registered user Username: Animal Post Number: 595 Registered: 7-2008 |
Excellent observation Brian !!!! | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 10185 Registered: 12-2003 |
Good question, Brian. In context, Hebrews 11:29 follows six verses stating that by faith Moses did various things. Verse 28 says by faith "he kept the Passover and the sprinkling of the blood so that the who destroyed the firstborn would not touch them." Then, verse 29 moves from Passover to the Red Sea, but it says, "By faith they passed through the Red Sea..." It never directly mentions Israel, although that is the implication. But in context it is still related to Moses. By faith Moses refused to be called the son of Pharaoh's daughter, chose to endure ill treatment with the people of God, considered the reproach of Christ greater riches than Egypt's treasures, left Egypt,, not fearing the king, kept the passover--and by faith they crossed the Red Sea. I think that this passage is largely about Moses' faith which was the undergirding power and authority of God that empowered Israel. And yes, it DOES say, "by faith they crossed.." The Israelites crossed the Red Sea because God was faithful to Israel and to His own purposes. Moses, who led them, believed God, and God gave Israel the faith to follow Moses. I don't think this passage is necessarily addressing the individual salvation of the Israelites. Rather, it is addressing God's faithfulness and Moses' faith and Israel's faith in Moses...all of which is part of God's faithfulness. God gave them the faith to leave and to walk when Moses led them through the sea. The individual people named in Hebrews 11 probably do reflect individual faith in God that was saving. I can't say for sure, but that is my take on it. Just like Moses' faith in the said seven verses represented saving faith. It's interesting--I've never thought about this before--but even Hebrews 11 underscores the fact that "faith" reflects God's faithfulness to create faith in those who obey Him. Truly, it's ALL about God. This is not our story; it is Jesus' story. By His grace He calls us and gives us a small role to play. Colleen |
