| Author | Message | ||
| Indy4now Registered user Username: Indy4now Post Number: 653 Registered: 2-2008  |
I was posting on a note on FB (Gregg's 2Cor 3 note), when I read at the end of a post that this person was "trying to change the church from within." The note wasn't about changing the SDA church... and it's been very hard for me not to say something about that. I just don't even know what that would look like? How would this be done? Can a person come to the Gospel and Christ's finished work and still stay Adventist because they want to change the church from within? Do people have any good results with this? What do you think? ~vivian p.s. I'm opinionated about this... and I want to express it (haha!) but I really want to know what you guys think before I do all that "expressing"! | ||
| Seekinglight Registered user Username: Seekinglight Post Number: 275 Registered: 3-2009 |
I am optimistic about someone wanting to change the church from within. That is an important stage in the exit process--realizing there's something majorly wrong & needs fixing. Many of us have probably gone through this stage at one point in our journeys. Pray that this person will soon know, as we do, that the system is waaaay beyond repair! Hopefully they'll become burned-out and frustrated very quickly, realizing it's a hopeless case. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 10147 Registered: 12-2003  |
Vivian, it's not possible. Oh sure, people have succeeded in making external changes to worship styles in local congregations, developing new ways to talk about "grace" including teaching that all people are saved by grace—the lost are lost because they choose not to accept that grace...sigh...and so forth. But no one has been able to change the church. It's fundamental beliefs are not only the same basic beliefs, but their statement on EGW's role has intensified since 1980. That was the year they added the phrase that she is a "continuing and authoritative source [ital mine] of truth" to their belief statement. Here's the deal. When a person finally knows the gospel and meets Jesus, He compels one to live with integrity. It becomes increasingly clear that one cannot both serve Jesus and teach Him alone and publicly support a heretical system by staying inside. Would you think a Mormon who became a true Christ-follower could stay and change the system from within? How about a Jehovah's Witness? Adventism is no different. It is founded on a lie, and because of that Satan has a claim on it. He has even put His stamp there by wearing the identity of the scapegoat--the one who ultimately pays the penalty for the sins of the saved. That claim is blasphemy, and it is the core of Adventist soteriology; Jesus' blood defiles heaven by carrying our sins there, and Satan cleanses heaven at the end of the IJ by carrying the sins of the saved away and by being punished for them. No, a person who has trusted the Lord Jesus with his life will see Adventism more and more clearly for what it is. You cannot reform something founded in evil. Evil must be exposed, not "reformed". People who are in bondage to deception and heresy must be released and retaught to know reality and to form a biblical worldview. Adventism does not spring from the apostolic root of the gospel. Colleen | ||
| Bskillet Registered user Username: Bskillet Post Number: 440 Registered: 8-2008 |
In a sort of similar context, I once read this metaphor: You don't rescue someone from alcoholism by going into the bar with them and having a drink. | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 5226 Registered: 9-2006  |
Amen Colleen. | ||
| Hec Registered user Username: Hec Post Number: 359 Registered: 3-2009 |
Colleen, If I die, it will be on your head. I stopped breathing for a few seconds when I read the paragraph in the post above that says:
I knew that already, but seeing it in print in such clear words... Arrrg. Just that one belief it's enough to characterize the SDA as coming from the Devil. Of course, there are individual members that don't believe that way. I'm getting to the conclusion that there are so mamy members in the church books that do not believe everything that the church teaches, that if one were to say that to be SDA you have to believe the whole package, then their 13 million wil become 5 million. Hec | ||
| Cordurb Registered user Username: Cordurb Post Number: 12 Registered: 4-2009 |
Colleen, where would I find that EGW quote? That is amazing stuff. | ||
| Joyfulheart Registered user Username: Joyfulheart Post Number: 640 Registered: 10-2006 |
Hi Vivian! I tried with all my might to change the church (actually only the local one) from within. I took them scripture that I thought would convince them that I was right. I used every every inconsistency I could find that showed Adventist doctrine was wrong. I showed them how the church doesn't really believe in EGW because they don't (whatever). I showed them how she clearly contradicts herself and the Bible. I showed them proof that the dates for the 2300 day prophecy just don't work...I did everything I could think of to take the gospel to the church. My efforts at changing anyone or anything failed miserably - and only made them hate and fear me. I needed to learn a lesson that I hope and pray I am finally learning - that this is spiritual warfare that will only be won on our knees. There is a very real veil that is only removed in Christ. I'm still thinking about sending my letter - if I believe the Holy Spirit is leading me. I'm still thinking about "intensive response" to the prophecy seminar coming on September 11. The difference now is that I am convinced I am only a servant of Christ. By myself, doing the things I think will work, I will fail. I'm also convinced that that God loves them way more than I do - and that those who are seeking truth will come to Jesus. The most and best I can do is to pray calling their names daily and pleading with God to show them the finished work of Jesus on the cross and the freedom that comes only from Him. I totally agree with Colleen that the church cannot be reformed from within. (It's only within the last few months that I've come to this conclusion.) The heresy is just too entrenched into every part of the Adventist church - no matter what flavor it has been given. | ||
| Hec Registered user Username: Hec Post Number: 361 Registered: 3-2009 |
Trying to reform the SDA sect from within, is like trying to reform the Roman Catholic Church from within. It was tried once and failed miserably. Hec | ||
| Jrt Registered user Username: Jrt Post Number: 684 Registered: 10-2008 |
Amen, Colleen. Hec, (I'm not specifically speaking to you - maybe everyone in general) even though not all SDA's claim to believe the "whole package". Those that stay SDA are still being indoctrinated by SDA preaching and teaching. If scripture is true ... and I firmly believe it to be the inerrant word of God ... SDA's who stay SDA really do not believe in the full and true gospel that Jesus Christ is our ONE and ONLY way to be saved. It is through belief in Jesus Christ ALONE, by grace alone, through faith alone (Eph. 2:1-8; John 5:24). And we are given that faith to believe so that no one can boast. I hope whomever is reading will continue to read - so they "see" where I'm coming from ... It is best to "assume" that the 13 million SDA's are unbelievers ... I'm not being cold or heartless. - Please continue to read - before you make a judgment about what I'm writing. Here is where I am coming from ... John 8:31-59. I'm not going to copy the whole passage here, but I would encourage whoever is interested to read it. So Jesus was saying to those Jews who had believed Him, "If you continue in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine; and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free." If you read this whole passage you will find that these Jews "who had believed Him" really didn't fully believe or have "saving faith". In the end these Jews who supposedly "believed" take up stones to kill Jesus. This is what my ESV study Bible says in regards to this specific verse, "Their 'belief' is shown to be false in the course of the story (see vv.33-47). True followers of Christ cannot continue to be in a heretical and blasphemic system. Think about it ... When someone accepts Jesus as their penal subsitutionary sacrifice (meaning He paid our debt completely) and repent of their unbelief and their spiritual pride that they in some way contribute to their salvation either through "works" or through right "knowlege" - at that point they have eternal life. ... The Holy Spirit at that exact point (of "belief"/saving faith) comes to live in them (Eph. 2:4-9). We are made "alive together with Christ" and "we are seated with Him in the heavenly places" ... John 15:4-13 talks about Christ in us and we in Christ and the fruit we bear (and remember fruit is fruit of the "Spirit" not "good deeds") proves that we are Jesus' disciples. How could Christ living in us ... not lead us out of a heretical, blasphemic institution that ultimately says, "Satan bears the sin of the righteous" (using SDA's belief that Satan is the scapegoat." Even if we'd like to "cut some SDA's slack" that they may not "know" or believe all the SDA doctrines - if they are "true" Christ-followers; they WILL have Christ living IN them and therefore they will HAVE to make a decision to leave "untruth". Christ living in them would not allow them to stay in "untruth". For Christ IS the WAY, the TRUTH, and the LIFE. How in the world could someone who is a "believer", who has Christ living in them, stay in an institution that is not following Christ and the true gospel? That would be an impossibility. Now, there are some people in different stages of exiting Adventism and there are different people who Christ is drawing to Himself in Adventism ... and there are some people who have major cognitive dissonance about Adventism and yes, some have fully decided on Christ alone, through faith alone, by grace alone - but if they are still in Adventism - they MUST then be having deep cognitive dissonance and doubts about Adventism - and not defending it or saying "it has problems, BUT"... it is best to be patient, loving, and in prayer for those in Adventism asking God to bind the "spirit of Adventism, and set the captive free". Then wait to see how the person's "story" plays itself out - like the John 8 passage. True, there maybe some in Adventism who Christ has drawn to Himself who "die" before they can make full choices to leave the system ... and we definitely cannot judge "who is saved" and "who is not" BUT we cannot assume anything based on someone's actions or right-sounding words ... An example of this .. a conversation I had on the phone last night with someone ... this person is in the process of exiting Adventism ... they have MAJOR cognitive dissonance ... yet, in the course of the conversation they mentioned that they hoped that Adventism could be reformed ... and they wanted to work in a capacity to do that. They weren't sure if they would attend an SDA church or not ... Yet, when I quizzed them several times and in several different ways ... they really did seem to have the gospel down right - Jesus paid it all. And I "see" them making choices to leave Adventism ... have they left ... not entirely, but I believe that if their faith is genuine and they live "long enough" they will in the next few years or months be "gone" from Adventism. I don't know if any of this made sense ... I guess my main point is ... don't trust right sounding actions or even words, but make conclusions based on scripture and if someone is not making choices based on the clear teachings of scripture then I would hesitate to declare them a "believer". We can't judge someone's salvation - but we can make generalizations based on their "fruit". Keri P.S. Vivian ... I don't believe Adventism can be reformed ... The system must repent and then it can be "saved" - an example might be Ninevah - they had to repent and when they did repent they were not immediately destroyed. They were saved. Probably not the best analogy, but the best I can do at the moment (ha). And Jonah was not too happy  | ||
| Animal Registered user Username: Animal Post Number: 574 Registered: 7-2008  |
Could it be that the Beast of revelations is the SDA church and the Mark of the Beast is Saturday worship instead of GOD worship??..Hmmm..Hmmmm. Such would make for an interesting screenplay...LOL LOL. ...Animal...aint I cruel !!!! | ||
| Jonvil Registered user Username: Jonvil Post Number: 300 Registered: 4-2007 |
There are well meaning, questioning Adventists who believe the church can be reformed. They become formers when they realize that the reformation required is not alteration but obliteration. Colleen’s statement says why “Adventism does not spring from the apostolic root of the gospel.” John Douglas | ||
| Philharris Registered user Username: Philharris Post Number: 1734 Registered: 5-2007  |
I go along with Colleen, It is not possible to change the SDA church from within. To repent of its doctrines of heresy would simply cause it to cease to exist. Fearless Phil | ||
| Indy4now Registered user Username: Indy4now Post Number: 654 Registered: 2-2008 |
I'm glad to see that I am not the only one who believes that the church cannot be changed from within. In fact I think that the church is plenty happy that these people stay to "try" to change the church from within... after all... there's tithe and offerings to keep coming in. I think these people deep down would rather stay than to risk anything by leaving. This really is a statement about their integrity. I have a friend of mine that I grew up with that believes that "Ellen is wacky", he believes in Christ's finished work, he'd like to see the church give up the IJ so much that he posted an April fools joke saying that the GC had discarded the belief, he understands that he finds his rest in Christ... but he says that he stays because he likes the Sabbath. I questioned him as to why would he financially support the church if he doesn't agree with their stance on most things. His reason is basically because he believes its his culture and he doesn't see a problem with it. Since he writes for some of their magazines... why does the church allow him to write for them if he is openly against EGW and IJ. I say it's because of financial reasons. They allow him and others to write in order to keep more members in the church. They'd rather have watered down members who pay offerings to the church than to have unity in EGW & IJ and then lose members. What kind of integrity is that? Joyfulheart... what a valiant effort! After I left I would sometimes have feelings that maybe I copped out... maybe I could have stay just a little while to teach them. ha! ... glad I didn't try. Even those last few months I did attend, it was painful just to attend, to listen... because I didn't agree with their position. Keri~
you've given me something to think about tonight... makes me pray for my family to be broken of this spirit, this veil they have. ~vivian | ||
| Jrt Registered user Username: Jrt Post Number: 686 Registered: 10-2008 |
Phil, I agree ... I'm thinking of the World Wide Church of God that had a similar Sabbath doctrine and other heresies and did repent ... When the leadership repented there was much fall out ... I'm not sure where that church is at this moment - Mark Martin talks about it on his website. I think I recently heard that the part that honestly repented changed its name recently, but I'm not sure ... Let me be succinct - no, I, too, do not believe that Adventism can be reformed from within or from without. But I do wonder about repentance and turning to the true gospel as the World Wide Church of God ... Repentance does take place individually, at least, ... Keri | ||
| Philharris Registered user Username: Philharris Post Number: 1736 Registered: 5-2007 |
As for the example of the World Wide Church of God: One of my sisters and BIL were deeply in it. When the WWCOG top officials repented of its heresies it pretty much destroyed my sister's family. They themselves are now pretty much agnostic and live some depressed lives with no interest in God or learning of the true gospel message of Jesus Christ. Vast numbers of folks have had their lives disrupted without any sign of recovery. When the SDA church implodes, we need to be prepared to reach out to the refugees. That is, we need to think past just when this happens, but be prepared for what follows. In the example of the WWCOG, there doesn't appear (at least in my mind) to have been a plan of recovery. The orthodox Christian world just sort of let things 'happen', hoping for the best. As an analogy, it is like winning WWII but not expecting or preparing for the Cold War that followed in its wake. Fearless Phil | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 2882 Registered: 10-2004  |
Keri, The Worldwide Church of God is still not orthodox and holds to heretical teachings including salvation after death. See more here: http://www.spurgeon.org/~phil/bookmark/realbad.htm (scroll almost to the bottom to "Worldwide Church of God"). A cult really cannot be reformed. If they had done what should have been done, they would have disbanded. Colleen said it best--a cult "does not spring from the apostolic root of the gospel" and therefore cannot be reformed. Former cultists can't just stick together or else weird ideas are bound to form--they need to integrate into the larger Christian community with believers who do not share an unhealthy spiritual background. Jeremy | ||
| Surfy Registered user Username: Surfy Post Number: 553 Registered: 11-2007 |
As long as there is money...the adventist church will not change or fade away. If most of the members demanded change and backed it up with their tithes and offerings (or lack of them) it may make a difference but I don't see that happening. Surfy | ||
| Bskillet Registered user Username: Bskillet Post Number: 444 Registered: 8-2008 |
True that the WWCG could not truly be reformed as an institution, but thousands came to a true saving relationship with Jesus Christ because of what happened there. I do not doubt that. God is not concerned with fixing institutions. He is concerned with saving individuals. | ||
| Jrt Registered user Username: Jrt Post Number: 688 Registered: 10-2008 |
Jeremy, Have you seen this video? http://www.exadventist.com/Home/Video/tabid/502/Default.aspx about the World Wide Church of God? I guess I was under the assumption that the WWCG splintered and some still kept the doctrines, some didn't keep all the doctrines, and some truly sought to submit all to the Lord Jesus Christ ... or a small part that still was "institutional" really did become Biblically grounded. Jeremy, I haven't looked at your web site posting yet ... Phil, totally get what you are saying ... I think if we look at what happens to the 300,000 Adventists that leave the Adventist Church on a yearly basis currently, we get a glimpse of what this looks like. Many never do find their way into the greater Christian community ... many turn agnostic. Their faith most nearly shattered ... and needs to be rebuilt. That is why I believe the Tour of Encouragement was so important and significant to the greater Christian community ... It not only helped the Evangelical venues to identify that the SDA Church doesn't fit with the apostolic root it also began a process of saying those that leave HURT and are "messed up". Sorry, I'm probably not communicating well ... I guess I just remember some "chat" on this forum about the Adventist Church repenting - meaning institutionally ... now I'm reading that it can never repent = notice the distinction I am making between reform and repentance. The Adventist Church can never be reformed - but I am wondering if it can repent. Not trying to be defensive, just trying to understand. Whatever the case is ... we need to be powerfully PRAYING for the individuals still in it ... those of us that have left and truly seek to know God and submit to His Word - are definite miracles of God. He is an amazing God! Keri |
