| Author | Message | ||
| 8thday Registered user Username: 8thday Post Number: 1056 Registered: 11-2007  |
I just have to post this on its own thread. I have been making comments regarding my visit to see my family and my failing grandmother.. However I want to paint a bigger picture here, because this story needs to be told. It never entered my mind that my sda family could possibly not be saved until we were finally delivered from the veil of the Law of Moses over two years ago. Since that time, I have struggled to understand many things. I have watched many debates here and entered into them myself. I have defended them, thinking I had seen evidence they were saved. I heard stories here of loved ones who were terrified of death and had no idea what was waiting for them. When I heard my grandmother was nearing her time, I desperately wanted to go and see for myself, with my new eyes. If possible, I wanted to be able to reassure her, and ease her fear. I spent time with her every day for a week. The first afternoon we had a great time of fellowship, sharing scriptures we loved. We prayed. I felt a sense that maybe they were really in Christ and all my desires and efforts to expose the organization were not really all that important if they were saved anyway - just a little mixed up. If they have Christ, I would see no need to expose the lies - but just reinforce the parts I believe we have in common, as I would do with other denominations I have differences with. This dear lady has claimed over and over that at a very young age, while dating an atheist, she determined to get out all the egw books and test to see if she was a prophet or not. After her own research, she became satisfied that she was a true prophetic voice and her relationship with the atheist ended. She married another Adventist man and later in life, he was called into the ministry. She served by his side as a faithful pastor's wife for many years. He passed away in 1978, and she has been a widow since then. She has taught Sabbath School, been an elder, and later gave Bible studies in a retirement home where most of the residents were younger than herself. As she grew older and could no longer drive, she became distraught that there were no jobs for her to do. She prayed for someone to teach and she developed a friendship with a nutritionist that was not convinced of Christianity. She studied with him for literally years, but he never accepted Christ or her church. She felt it as a deep failure and could not understand why God would send her this man if he was not going to accept the truth. As her eyesight has failed, she has done everything possible to continue to study the scriptures and taken great pains to be diligent, even to the point of buying an electronic magnifier that costs thousands of dollars - which enlarges the type on a big screen. She says she does not like the audio Bibles because she cannot properly cross reference. (Evidently we can't just read the Word as it's written or we may get the wrong idea about some things.) She was an upright, moral, dutiful, hard-working, never sittin' down for a moment SDA woman. I have looked up to her my whole life for her tenacity and independent nature. The second incident came a few days later.. one afternoon she told my mom that she keenly felt that Satan had been harassing her - with issues with her neighbors, a recent bad fall she had, and another situation which she said she wasn't going to go into.. (hmmm. ha.) and she firmly believed Satan was trying to come in between her and Christ, so she just had a serious time of prayer and made things right. My mom tried to reassure her that God was stronger than the devil, and I tried to share some promises with her (and my words drop like rocks because I'm the deceived one.) A few days later.. she gets a call from the church. She gets off the phone and said the woman had told her the whole church was praying for her, and that she was a blessing. The woman told her she could see Jesus in her. This left my grandmother broken down in tears because she basically was afraid it was all a facade and she knew it wasn't enough to know ABOUT Jesus, but we must KNOW him. To know Him, in her mind, is to be like Him.. in a word.. perfect. She just cried and cried and said she wanted to be like Jesus. Nothing could give her reassurance.. no promise.. nothing. She replied that those promises were conditional.. that she had to be careful not to fall away, as Paul warned.. that she had to make that choice to follow Jesus every day.. all about what SHE had to do.. as she sat there in tears with no peace. Later my mom tried to encourage her with the prospect of going to sleep and waking up to the very real Jesus (in their understanding..still an awesome thought!) and this had no affect on her whatsoever. I tried to reinforce this - how awesome that would be and I envy that and can't wait for that day myself.. no response. This was the clincher for me. Not even any joy in the thought of being with your Lord?? In spite of everything I wanted to grasp onto as evidence that she really knows Jesus, this last day brought me to tears as I prayed for her. I knew my words meant nothing to her or anyone else, because I have rejected the truth, but I prayed anyway. She isn't overjoyed about seeing Jesus because she has no idea what He is going to say to her. I read the I John passage about perfect love casting out all fear, because fear has to do with punishment. Nothing. My mom explains this away as an anxiety disorder. I explain it as a theology disorder and an inability to believe and trust in what God has promised us in Jesus Christ. She faithfully studied and believed her prophet, and a church that presented an impossible demand in order to be accepted by God. Her current state of mind is exactly what I would expect a person to have under that teaching. I know if she could see Christ as he His, not the Adventist god, her doubt and fear would melt into joy and peace. But they fear those fruits of salvation as drawing a person into complacency and lethargy. We must reamain in fear and striving in order to keep our salvation sure. I don't believe my mom lives under this mindset - she does seem different. But with my grandmother, 80 years of EGW and sda indoctrination has produced the only fruit it could. Two verses come to mind.. Do not be led away by diverse and strange teachings, for it is good for the heart to be strengthened by grace, not by foods, which have not benefited those devoted to them. Hebrews 13:9 John 14:7 Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid. In a later discussion with my mom, she asserted that my objections with Adventism had to do with the way it used to be and I was confusing that with the way it is now. She claimed it is changing. My reply was that if that is truly possible, the church must leave their prophet behind, because all these things I no longer believe, she taught. She is the essence and spirit of the denomination. Without her, you have a completely different church. I agree that the more she is ignored, the more "evangelical" the sda church will be - but the veil remains. As long as they refuse to acknolwedge the truth about her fallacies and failure as a prophet, they will be under the spiritual deception. I felt intense spiritual oppression this time as I have never felt before with my family. One night I ended up on the floor, on my face.. praying until I had peace in order to just sleep. My husband and children at home came under intense attack. All hell literally broke loose as soon as I began to plan my trip there, and escalated while I was gone. Had a terrible sense of dread when I left, fearing for their safety. I realized coming home that there are two sda churches in that town, and all of my family are involved in leadership in both of them - one of them a pastor. What did I expect to face? I was not planning on confrontations, but inadvertently started one, and I felt bad about that. I didn't go to argue with closed minds, but did anyway. I found the new Proclamation in my grandmother's mailbox! It lay on her counter the entire week I was there. No one moved it. No one said anything. By the end of the week I felt as if I had been cut off at the knees with a machete, and if I learned nothing else - it's that I haven't even begun to learn how to pray. I have never been more committed to sharing the truth. I thank God for the blessing of the lunch with FAF friends - which was what I needed to finish out the last two hardest days there. Thank you for blessing me with your fellowship!!! The bond we have in Jesus is one of the most amazing gifts. He not only gave us Himself, but He gave us each other as part of Himself!! It's so awesome. Anyway.. just had to share here because I know alot of people read here that are questioning and testing. I love my family with all my heart. I went out of my way to show them I did. I reassured them I love them no matter what - even in spite of our disagreements. And I will never give up praying for them, as I am sure, they are doing for me. =) Praying to learn more how to pray! Sondra | ||
| Philharris Registered user Username: Philharris Post Number: 1725 Registered: 5-2007  |
Sondra, Your testamony touches me deeply. We have the same concern for our families and is the reason I am on the forum. May I use your story? Fearless Phil | ||
| Indy4now Registered user Username: Indy4now Post Number: 635 Registered: 2-2008  |
... this just truly breaks your heart. I think what is hardest to reconcile is the fact that she have spent her ENTIRE life studying the Bible (and extrabiblical sources  ) and this is where she has ended up at. No assurance, no rest, no peace because who can be perfect? I've seen this in my mom also. I want so dearly to see that life in my mom that we all know that comes from a heart transformed by God. To know grace without being under the dark cloud (thunderous cloud) of the Investigative Judgment. She has spent her whole life working and serving God... but doesn't even know whether she knows Him or not. She lives in fear because she doesn't know if she's "done enough". They say they don't believe that their salvation is based on works... but their actions speak louder than words! There was one day at my office where a patient came in that I knew was involved in New Age mysticism and the occult. There was one moment while I was cleaning her teeth that she looked straight into my eyes. I felt like she was getting a glimpse right into my soul. I turned instinctively. What's strange is that I feel that's the same reaction my mom has with me when we talk about God. She barely looks at me and when she does, her eyes are glazed over. totally shut down. She only wants to talk about God if she's commanding the conversation, she surely doesn't want to hear what I have to say because it may be tainted with Satan's evil lies. What's worse, is that after all these years of Bible study, she's afraid that she can't discern what is evil. So she closes her mind as we talk. She's too afraid to listen. sigh... I'll keep your Grandma in my prayers... ~vivian p.s. could the "other" situation be a 6 letter word that starts with an "S" and ends with an "A"? haha! | ||
| Skeeter Registered user Username: Skeeter Post Number: 88 Registered: 12-2007 |
Sondra, Thank you for opening your heart and sharing your story with us. As I was reading I felt so many similarities with my MIL who is still a VERY strong SDA and last time they came for a visit it just felt like she was shutting me out. We were always so close over these past 40 years and it hurts to not be able to talk to her about God anymore without feeling that she has this self righteous attitude.. like she is "in the truth" and knows I am rejecting HER (SDA) version of the truth. None of her 5 children attend church at all anymore (I am married to her oldest son) I know the biggest reason is because they do not want to dissappoint their Mom. But I can see her turning very bitter. She thinks all her children will be lost if they do not again join the SDA church.. I as her DIL was the last one in the family to remain a SDA and I know she is greatly dissappointed in all of us... she thinks we are lost.. and I fear for her because with all of her self righteousness of knowing she is in the right church.. I can at last see clearly the veil that was over my own eyes and heart and it breaks my heart to know that it is still over hers and most likely will remain. I am not giving up on her though.. I will keep praying that God will somehow remove that veil so she can see the truth about the SDA system. I will pray earnestly for your Grandmother and your Mom as I am praying for my Mom and MIL. | ||
| Indy4now Registered user Username: Indy4now Post Number: 636 Registered: 2-2008 |
p.p.s. even though they have no assurance... they still know they belong to the remnant church! LOL! | ||
| Nowisee Registered user Username: Nowisee Post Number: 37 Registered: 5-2009 |
Thank you, 8thday, for sharing. So many of us on this forum have broken hearts for our families & friends; your story resonates with most of us, I think. The people in power in the SDA church will have alot to answer for, in my humble opinion. From infancy on SDAs are programmed with EGW and her spiritual bondage--from Cradle Roll to the grave. I was Cradle Roll leader for 10 years, so I know & I repent of what I taught those children. When I was little (long, long ago!), I REALLY believed the song, "The B-I-B-L-E": 'I stand alone on the word of God, the B-I-B-L-E!' Now that I AM standing alone on it, I am considered Satanic & part of the 'falling away'. | ||
| Psalm107v2 Registered user Username: Psalm107v2 Post Number: 347 Registered: 10-2008  |
Sondra, thanks for sharing. I think we can relate in so many ways and I want to encourage you by letting you know that I'll pray and that I admire your heart. | ||
| Bb Registered user Username: Bb Post Number: 465 Registered: 7-2004 |
What a sad, sad story of your grandmother, Sondra. I feel for you and how much you care for them. I pray that the seeds of love that you planted will bring fruit. We know God does hear our prayers. I will pray for you and your family. | ||
| Asurprise Registered user Username: Asurprise Post Number: 888 Registered: 7-2007 |
Sondra, that was heartbreaking. My family is also stuck in Adventism. My mother absolutely refuses to look up Bible verses that I ask her too. She's so afraid of being decieved. 2 Corinthians 3:15,16 says that the veil is lifted when someone turns to the Lord. So if a person truly asks God to reveal the truth to them, He WILL do it! I've read lots of conversion stories where Jewish and Muslim people wanted to know the truth. When they asked God to show them, He did! I don't think the Lord will respond to a person who just wants to prove that THEY have "the truth", though. (which is the thinking of a lot of Adventists. I thought that way too as an Adventist.) When I was a Seventh-day Adventist, I couldn't quite accept Jesus' sacrifice for me; couldn't quite "put my weight down" on Ephesians 2:8,9 where the apostle Paul tells believers "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast." (Also see 2 Timothy 1:9 "Who has SAVED us..." and Titus 3:5 "He saved us..." I couldn't quite believe because Ellen White said that no one should say or feel they are saved. Therefore I took a middle position and could obtain a sort of "assurance of salvation" that only lasted a few minutes each time I would pray and ask forgiveness. It wasn't until God did a series of miracles in my life that I could finally "see" and accept the gospel! (I'm SO grateful to God and for the person who fasted and prayed!) None of the false religions can give that assurance of salvation. Catholics don't have it. Muslims don't. Seventh-day Adventists, Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormons don't. Sondra, I'm praying for your relatives too. | ||
| Hec Registered user Username: Hec Post Number: 330 Registered: 3-2009 |
Thanks for sharing, Sondra. Hec | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 10117 Registered: 12-2003  |
Sondra, I TOTALLY understand. Totally. You are 100% correct in your evaluation. I understand the horrific spiritual warfare and the glazed eyes and "Jesus talk" only when it is within their paradigm. I believe that, generally speaking, we have to assume our Adventist loved ones are not saved. If we assume they ARE saved, even though they hold to a false prophet and non-biblical doctrines, we will miss the urgent need to pray and witness to them. Adventism is firmly rooted in evil. I don't know how else to say it. It is that serious. This trip has tied a lot of loose ends together in my head. I see the whole SDA "shebang" as dangerous and dark in a consistent way, from its inception to its modern pluralistic "friendly" manifestations. God is calling people out, but we can't treat Adventism as "misinformation" or just doctrinal differences. It is false. Adventists need our prayer and evangelism. Colleen | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 2864 Registered: 10-2004  |
Perhaps the reason that these verses/promises did nothing for her was because she knows that the "Jesus" she has known her entire life would never accept her as she is. She needs to give up the false SDA "jesus" for the real Jesus of the Bible and trust what His Word says! Jeremy | ||
| Asurprise Registered user Username: Asurprise Post Number: 890 Registered: 7-2007 |
That reminds me of when I was reading a story about a "Christian Scientist" who later converted to Christianity. He said in his story how his Christian Scientist grandmother died, back while he was still a Christian Scientist. Several of the relatives were gathered around when she died. She was scared to die, but none of the relatives could offer any assurance. She died without Jesus. It makes me cry to read things like this and I cried again as I wrote about this. It just breaks my heart. I can't stand to hear about someone dying without Jesus and Adventists have a false Jesus - one that didn't complete the atonement at the cross and that has to investigate everyone. Therefore Adventists have no assurance when they die. How many Adventists can really "put their weight down" on Ephesians 2:8,9? How many Adventists can REALLY believe 1st John 5:13? | ||
| Martin Registered user Username: Martin Post Number: 74 Registered: 11-2008 |
Thank you very much for telling us your story, Sondra. Lately I have been thinking quite a bit, and I reached the conclusion that Adventism, in its purest form, in its core, is basically opposed to the Gospel of Christ. As you add more and more of the Gospel to it, as it happens in many cases, it becomes something "less" bad... But it still remains something that is far from completely Good. Well... It probably was something very obvious, but it's good when you can clearly see it for yourself anyway  | ||
| Kathy23 Registered user Username: Kathy23 Post Number: 59 Registered: 6-2005  |
Sondra, thanks for your story. I often wonder if my Adventist Mom is saved or if she feels the need to be "perfect" in order to be saved, like most Adventists. She won't really talk to me about it. She seems like such an upright christian woman. I pray for her just as I know she prays for me. Your story touched my heart and reinforced the need in me to keep praying for my Mom and all our other Adventist brothers and sisters. | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 7222 Registered: 3-2004  |
Sondra, Thanks for the story of the visit you to your family. Just keep praying for your grandmother. No one is to old to change. I will pray for her and your family also. Diana L | ||
| Asurprise Registered user Username: Asurprise Post Number: 894 Registered: 7-2007 |
I read about a Jewish man who had been through the holocaust and was hostile toward Christianity. He had no idea that the people who did those horrible things were definitely NOT Christian! Then at the very end of his life when he was in his 80s, a couple Christian nurses or nurse aids were helping him in his home. He saw a peace and joy about them that he lacked and they told him about Jesus. He accepted the Lord and was saved just minutes before he died. So as long as your grandmother is still alive, it's not too late, Sondra. I'm wondering though if it's harder for someone who believes that they already believe in Jesus, to accept His finished work than for someone who doesn't believe in Him at all, to believe and accept Him. If she could just realize that fear isn't something that a Christian is supposed to experience concerning their walk with the Lord, maybe she would realize that there's something wrong with Adventism. Then she could ask the Lord to reveal the truth about salvation to her. I feel that if someone were to sincerely ask for THAT, the Lord would certainly reveal it. | ||
| Mommamayi Registered user Username: Mommamayi Post Number: 830 Registered: 12-2007  |
Viv, "Does the other situation start with an S and end with an A?" HA HA HA! I bet you're right. I'm sorry you had to go through this Sondra. You did what you could, through your loving visit. I hope she can find peace, even if it is last minute. | ||
| 8thday Registered user Username: 8thday Post Number: 1060 Registered: 11-2007 |
In retrospect I feel like I failed by trying to reassure her in something she does not have - instead of trying to help her see how to get it. But Asurprise, I think you are right. How do you help someone find Christ when they think they have Him already? I am at a loss in that respect.. and ironically is EXACTLY how they view me and my testimony of my walk with the Lord. This has hit me so hard because my denial about it is finally broken. But I have hope the real Jesus is stronger than the lie. I will not give up my prayers. | ||
| 8thday Registered user Username: 8thday Post Number: 1061 Registered: 11-2007 |
Oh - sorry I missed your question Phil - yes you can use the story. =) |
