| Author | Message | ||
| Indy4now Registered user Username: Indy4now Post Number: 581 Registered: 2-2008  |
I just read a book called "Atonement" by Derek Prince. It's an easy read and goes through all that Christ accomplished for us at the cross. He started the book out describing "Atonement". He compared the difference between the atonement that was made at the Day of Atonement to what Christ did for us at the cross. OK... I knew all this, but never really had digested the comparison of the results of the sacrifices from both covenants... one being temporary, the other better sacrifice being a permanent solution. Derek explained that "kippur" means "covering." So the sins of the people in the OT were only "covered" by the sacrifice. Each year their sins needed to be "covered" again. There was no solution to the problem of sin... it was only a temporary covering. The picture of atonement in the NT is completely different. Christ's sacrifice didn't just temporarily cover our sins... His sacrifice TOOK AWAY our sins. In Hebrews, the writer wrote that by Christ's sacrifice cancelled or "put away" our sin (Heb 9:26). John the Baptist introduces Jesus as the Lamb of God Who takes away the sin of the world! So, OT = sins were temporarily covered and in the NT = our sins are taken away. A much better covenant!!! "Jesus took away sin. For that reason for those who have accepted His sacrifice, there remains no further sacrifice for sins." Derek Prince, Atonement, p.12 So for those who believe that Christ transferred their sins into heaven only then to be cleansed from heaven... is that like taking a dirty sock off and putting it back into the drawer with all the other clean socks... only to wait a few more weeks to purge the dirty socks from the clean? That is trampling on the blood of Christ! I realize that most of you understand this... but I hope it clarifies atonement for someone! ~vivian | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 7091 Registered: 3-2004  |
It is good to hear this over and over. I can never hear it enough. God did this for me(I am being selfish). Thank you Awesome God. Diana L | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 2826 Registered: 10-2004  |
Vivian, It's even much, much worse than that in Adventism, though. According to their evil scapegoat teaching, the only one who is able to actually take away/blot out our sins is satan!!! In other words, satan is the one who makes the real atonement for our sins ("taking away"), according to Adventism! (They teach that after the "Investigative Judgment" is finished, Jesus takes the sins (of the righteous only) out of the "Heavenly Sanctuary" and places them on satan.) This is why Jesus Christ has to be the Scapegoat, because it is the Scapegoat who takes away our sins (see Leviticus 16:22, and also compare with Isaiah 53:11)! Jeremy (Message edited by Jeremy on June 24, 2009) | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 2827 Registered: 10-2004 |
By the way, the SDA teaching about the sins of the righteous (and only the righteous) being placed on satan, and then atoned for by satan, is why Ellen White wrote the following satanic paragraph:
Jeremy (Message edited by Jeremy on June 24, 2009) | ||
| Indy4now Registered user Username: Indy4now Post Number: 584 Registered: 2-2008 |
... don't even get me started on the whole "Scapegoat" thing. It is very sad when you see a person read in Leviticus 16 where it says that the scapegoat was for making atonement and they say, "Well, the scapegoat is Satan, but we know that Jesus is the only one Who can make atonement for us." I saw a relative read that verse 5 times and still tell me that the scapegoat is Satan. Then she looks at me and asks, "Who's interpretation are you following? ... because we have the "lessor light'." SIGH. ~vivian | ||
| Philharris Registered user Username: Philharris Post Number: 1708 Registered: 5-2007  |
This topic of the Scapegoat is the Adventist "chain" on my life that, when cut loose, was like being alive the very first day of my life. On my own, with just the Bible and the guidance of the Holy Spirit, I saw that the two perfect (spotless) goats were one atoning sacrifice. Both represented Jesus Christ. In fact, everything in the tabernacle and tabernacle service, represented Jesus Christ and his work. The final realization is to know that the Blood of the Lamb did not pollute the Holy of Holies and the Blood of Christ could never have defiled the heavenly sanctuary. The whole IJ and Sanctuary Doctrine stinks...the source of pollution. Fearless Phil | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 5102 Registered: 9-2006  |
Phill...yup. | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 7092 Registered: 3-2004 |
As an Adventist, especially after my name was removed from the church books, I had forgotten about the IJ and the sanctuary doctrine and everything associated with it. When I came to FAF I was reminded of all that and realized how blasphemous it is. YES Phil, it is the source of pollution and it does stink. Thank God for Jesus Christ. He is our Savior. How awesome is that??? Diana L | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 10059 Registered: 12-2003  |
Jeremy, I actually love the way you keep pointing out that the SDA scapegoat doctrine is satanic. Because it is tucked away inside the SDA doctrine of soteriology and they publicly talk about accepting Christ, etc etc, they have succeeded in convincing their members that satan bearing our sins is logical and is part of "accepting Jesus". Even though they'll SAY Jesus died for our sins, they still believe that God will punish Satan for every sin we commit because he CAUSED our sin. There are several problems with the way Adventism sees this. First is the fact that their understanding of human sin doesn't include the biblical truth of our complete depravity. We don't sin because "the devil made me do it". We sin because we are born spiritually dead. We are born in sin. This innate condition of being objects of wrath is what makes our sin so desperate. Our sin is not something we can "fix" by practice and will power and discipline. It is who we are. The Bible is clear that Satan is not to blame for this sin. We ourselves are responsible for human sin. We are the ones condemned to death for our own sin. This depravity of each person cannot ever be "placed on Satan" so he can be punished for it. It is a human problem. Second, Jesus' death was to atone for our depravity which generates our sins. Only a sinless human could atone for human sin (Hebrews 2). There's no way Satan can take responsibility in any way for our sins. In fact, the teaching that he'll bear the sins of the saved and be punished for them—even though that doctrine is taught as a sort-of "poetic justice"—actually presents Satan as qualified to remove our sins from existence. God "commissions" him, as a sort of tragic "heroic villain" to bear the ultimate punishment for them. It is a consummate deception. This doctrine teaches people that Satan shares with Jesus the responsibility for releasing us from sin. He convinces the unwary that he really IS at a level of authority that compares with Christ. Just as "God" allowed Jesus to be a "sin offering" (according to Adventism), so God also makes Satan to be part of the "sin offering"—the scapegoat equalled one-half of the atonement process in ancient Israel. In Adventism, Satan also carries one-half of the responsibility for final atonement. Adventists recoil if we say this doctrine is "satanic" because they don't feel they're honoring Satan by believing he carries away their sin. They feel it's "just". But this, too, is part of the deception. By insisting Satan carries away the sins of the saved, they absolutely denigrate the Lord Jesus. His not only removing but become sin for us was an unimaginable sacrifice of love and propitiation and atonement. Only a perfect human could do it—and only GOD could do it. By saying sins are placed on Satan, Adventists are elevating him to the level of God because only God could take the sins of humanity onto Himself. Moreover, by saying sins are placed on Satan, Adventists deny that Jesus completed the atonement and also deny that He alone is sufficient for our atonement. Even without considering the Sabbath issue, Adventists need Satan as well as Jesus to complete our atonement. It doesn't matter that Adventists don't "think it through" and understand the implications. Their lack of understanding arises from their denial of the biblical gospel and their deception into a "great controversy worldview". the absolute fact is that Adventism depends upon Satan as the final sin-bearer. The "cleansing of the [Adventist] sanctuary" cannot be complete without him. In actual fact, this clean-looking, evangelical sounding, white--washed religion is quite literally a satanic cult. Oh, it claims to honor Jesus. It claims its members "follow Christ". They claim to be Christian. But at the core, they know their final condition of sinless righteousness depends upon Satan's involvement. Phil, like you, I remember when, with no outside help or study, I read Leviticus 16 and realized the scapegoat couldn't possibly be anyone but Jesus. It was an indelible moment. I remember the breathless feeling I had, the sense of reality opening up in front of me that I had NEVER glimpsed before. Thank you, Jesus, for bearing away ALL my sin at the cross. Colleen | ||
| Indy4now Registered user Username: Indy4now Post Number: 585 Registered: 2-2008 |
"Even without considering the Sabbath issue, Adventists need Satan as well as Jesus to complete our atonement." ... to "complete" their atonement... I can't begin to describe the nausea that statement produces. Yes, thank you Jesus for bearing all my sin at the cross, that You take my sin away. ~vivian | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 2829 Registered: 10-2004 |
Colleen, Actually, though, the SDA argument that satan has to bear the sins of the righteous "because he caused them to commit them"--and that thus it is not really substitution or atonement--is totally disingenuous. If that was the real reason for their belief in satan bearing the sins, then he would have to bear the sins of the unrighteous also, since he also "caused" them to commit their sins. But since they teach that he bears the sins of only the righteous, then that forces it to be a vicarious, substitutionary, limited atonement for blotting out/"taking away" the sins of the righteous, while the unrighteous have to bear their own sins (and this is what is actually taught by EGW and Adventism).
So while they use words like "Jesus died for our sins" and that His blood "redeems us"--they actually don't mean it at all. According to Adventism, Jesus' death doesn't really do anything for you--the "real" atonement for your sins depends on whether or not satan bears your sins (and whether you keep the Ten Commandments [works] is what makes you "eligible" for "satan's atonement"!)!!! It is simply satanic blasphemy. Jeremy (Message edited by Jeremy on June 25, 2009) | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 7098 Registered: 3-2004 |
WOW!!! That is the first time I have seen that statement. It is satanic blasphemy. Nothing else. Diana L | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 10063 Registered: 12-2003 |
Jeremy, you're right! They do teach that Satan's punishment is substitutionary atonement. In reality, as you point out, Adventists do not truly believe Jesus was actually punished for anyone's sins. In Adventist-think, Jesus' death was more like the OT sacrifices: a token sacrifice that promises the ultimate atonement. I always sensed, as an Adventist, that Jesus was a sort-of pathetic figure, an innocent victim whose sad life and death made eternity possible (but not assured) for me, but he was more or less pitiable. I couldn't exactly articulate why he seemed that way to me, but now I do understand. Adventism truly does not believe Jesus actually died for our sin or made atonement for our sin. He always needed Satan to complete the "down payment" he made. I knew these facts as an Adventist; I did not grasp the actual meanings—but they affected me nonetheless. Adventism does not believe in the biblical Jesus. The Adventist Jesus did not complete the atonement—nor could he. Satan was needed for that. Colleen | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 10064 Registered: 12-2003 |
Oh, my goodness--it gets worse as I think about it. Adventism and EGW teach that Satan bears the sins of the righteous and is punished for them [thus providing vicarious, substitutionary atonement as you pointed out, Jeremy]. In addition, Adventism teaches that Jesus' blood shed on the cross did NOT complete the atonement. What they do teach is that His blood carried our sins to heaven where they were "stored" and where they defiled heaven. The IJ is for the purpose of figuring out which of those "stored" and defiling sins is qualified for forgiveness based upon whether or not those who committed them have remembered to confess them. Those that are actually forgiven are then placed on Satan. Those that are not are placed on those who committed them. What is Jesus' role in all this? One thing: Jesus is the defiler!!! According to Adventist soteriology, Jesus' blood defiles heaven. His blood does not pay for sin or cover sin; it merely transports sin to heaven where His blood, filled with human sin, corrupts heaven. Heaven can only be cleansed when either Satan or the guilty humans carry sin into hell. In other words, Jesus' blood never cleanses from sin; it only temporarily removes it from us—but it does not provide propitiation or forgiveness. Jesus' role, therefore, is to defile heaven; Satan's role is to provide the ultimate cleansing for the saved. The final straw in all this blasphemy for me is seeing that Adventism literally does teach, while using carefully couched words, that satan provided substitutionary atonement. You really can't get around it: this IS what Adventism teaches. No wonder they still have such a low view of Jesus and such a fixation on the devil! Within Adventism, the story of Jesus and Satan is a "good cop, bad cop" sort of thing. It has nothing to do with the eternal God forever defeating one of His fallen creations and limiting his destruction. No! Instead, they present a Jesus who is ongoingly engaged in conflict with one of his own creations—whom they further depict as having legitimate power And claims against God. Colleen | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 2830 Registered: 10-2004 |
Wow, you're right, Colleen--it does just get worse and worse the more you think about it! Your posts about sum it up. Also, EGW says that satan has to bear the "penalty" for our sins--so it is penal, substitutionary atonement (provided by satan instead of Jesus, in their blasphemous teaching!)!!! Since this is one of the major problems with Adventism (and is their most dark, evil heresy), I really believe this needs to be exposed more than it has been (especially to the Christian world). I hope it's able to get communicated somehow in these Tour of Encouragement meetings. Jeremy (Message edited by Jeremy on June 25, 2009) | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 10065 Registered: 12-2003 |
Yes, Jeremy, I agree. I was just thinking that these posts have been part of the preparation for this coming weekend. I've never seen this so clearly before. You are right that this needs to be communicated to the Christian world. They don't merely teach an "incomplete atonement". They teach a satanic atonement. And they do it so "piously" and subtly, thanks to Ellen, that we somehow missed it. The scapegoat doctrine always seemed like an obscure, outdated belief that modern Adventism didn't really teach anymore...but they Do. Adventists will say that they are saved by grace alone by Christ alone, but to an Adventist, accepting Christ ultimately means they gain the possibility of having their sins placed on Satan instead of on themselves. NO WONDER so many Adventists who claim they've accepted Jesus and trust "Him alone" do not exhibit the changed lives that being born again produces. No wonder so many retain their stubborn entrenchment. They have not accepted the biblical Jesus; they have accepted the Jesus whose blood defiles heaven and who ultimately places their sins on Satan. It's horrifying to think this through to it logical conclusion. For loyal Adventists to "accept Jesus" within their context, they are actually accepting the "gift" of Satan bearing their sins instead of themselves. I am reminded of our forum friend Mary saying that one entrenched Adventist (of the SDARM variety) saying to her as she left, "We believe in different gods." Indeed. We do. Colleen | ||
| Jrt Registered user Username: Jrt Post Number: 658 Registered: 10-2008 |
Colleen and Jeremy, This totally churns and sickens my stomach. My eyes filled with tears as I read your posts ... My, oh, my .... Indeed, this is needed to explain to Christianity WHY Adventists have a different gospel. I will pray that this convaluted SDA doctrine can be explained with clarity at these meetings and that born again Christian's will feel sick to their stomachs as it is presented. Isn't that what happened to Elizabeth Inrig when you presented it? We react, before our mind can fully comprehend the blasphemy. Thank you for these posts, Keri | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 2831 Registered: 10-2004 |
Here are a couple of previous posts, where I discussed this topic in more detail: http://www.formeradventist.com/discus/messages/7427/5169.html#POST68113 http://www.formeradventist.com/discus/messages/7427/5169.html#POST68223 In that first post, I posted a couple of quotes from the SDA Church's official belief book SDAs Believe, where they admit that according to their scapegoat teaching, they have to use the word "atonement" for satan:
And they say the following under footnote 21, and also quote the SDA Bible Commentary:
Of course, as we can see, their "accomodated sense" for "atonement" is really the "real" sense of "atonement"! And EGW also uses the word "atonement" for satan--see the quotes in my post at the first link above. Jeremy P.S. These quotes are from the first edition (1988) of the official belief book, but generally the second edition (2005) has the same, or similar, wording. I don't have the second edition available to me, though. (Message edited by Jeremy on June 25, 2009) | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 7100 Registered: 3-2004 |
One of the things I told my pastor patient was that Jesus was considered to be the scape goat among other things SDAs believe. All he said was "That is unBiblical" and quoted Bible texts to show they are wrong. Diana L | ||
| Dennis Registered user Username: Dennis Post Number: 1710 Registered: 4-2000  |
Diana, Did you mean to say that SDAs believe that Satan is the scapegoat? Dennis Fischer |
