| Author | Message | ||
| Jim02 Registered user Username: Jim02 Post Number: 868 Registered: 5-2007 |
Matt5:17 "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. J: This is a mission statement. 18I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. J; The confusion point here is , what does everything include? His death on the cross seems to be what is meant by everything is accomplished. J:Since Revealtion was not yet written, it does not apply. But the argument goes, that the end of the world has not yet occurred and Jesus referenced that as well during his ministry. 19Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. J: The tenor here was one of continuance with no clear inference of temporary status. On the face of it, it seems as though Jesus was stating a policy to live by. It was not conditional in this context. Matt7: 13 "Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. 14But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it. J: This blows away the idea that salvation is a walk in the park. This alone is warning that we must not assume anything. It also tells me that in fact, many (majority) will not enter the kingdom. Matt19:17 "Why do you ask me about what is good?" Jesus replied. "There is only One who is good. If you want to enter life, obey the commandments." J: Plain unqualified statement. 18"Which ones?" the man inquired. Jesus replied, " 'Do not murder, do not commit adultery, do not steal, do not give false testimony, 19honor your father and mother,'[d] and 'love your neighbor as yourself.'[e]" J: Specific to the decalouge and global in the same sentence. In verity then, this is a commandment of God. Jim | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 5138 Registered: 9-2006  |
And which one of these commandments have you kept? | ||
| Animal Registered user Username: Animal Post Number: 544 Registered: 7-2008  |
The Bible says...... "Owe nothing to anyone except to love one another;for he who loves his neighbor has fulfilled the law." Romans 13:8 How can someone say they love God, whom they can not see, yet hate his neighbor whom he CAN see?? I love the simplicity of scripture.Why cant we just accept the Bible for what it says. If you want to keep the law of God..LOVE others, regardless of who they are. Lord....Help me to be loving to all...Amen ...Animal | ||
| Jim02 Registered user Username: Jim02 Post Number: 869 Registered: 5-2007 |
So then, I should get out my pair of scissors and clip out all the irrelevant parts that does not fit my theology? Do I use certain scriptures to cancel out all the others? Simplicity is possible when there is clear understanding and no contradictory information. or Latch onto one passage, maybe two, ignore the others . If I choose to only consider one facet of scripture, then that simplicity is based upon a partial view. And River, Your question, What is your point? Jim | ||
| Grace_alone Registered user Username: Grace_alone Post Number: 1499 Registered: 6-2006  |
Jim, are you simply making statements or are these questions that you hope others here will address? Also, you wrote - "I should get out my pair of scissors and clip out all the irrelevant parts that does not fit my theology? Do I use certain scriptures to cancel out all the others? Simplicity is possible when there is clear understanding and no contradictory information. or Latch onto one passage, maybe two, ignore the others . If I choose to only consider one facet of scripture, then that simplicity is based upon a partial view." Do you believe that each scripture verse should stand alone, apart from the others? Or, is it possible that these verses have a theme around them and can be applied in context? Why the need to latch onto one or two passages and ignore the others? Where's the logic in that? Perhaps that was sarcasm? Leigh Anne | ||
| Scarred4life Registered user Username: Scarred4life Post Number: 38 Registered: 1-2009 |
Matt7: 13 "Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. 14But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it. I know a lot of Christians see this text as the road to eternal life BUT is it, the text never mentions anything about eternal life. I have a different view on this text and that is it is applying to our day to day living. If we follow Jesus Christ and put him first in our lives each day then we will live a life of fullfillment in him, but if we follow the crowds of the world and what the World calls normal living these days then our lives will be basically on self destruct. Leading to destruction in this world and the future heavenly world. | ||
| Bb Registered user Username: Bb Post Number: 457 Registered: 7-2004 |
18I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. J; The confusion point here is , what does everything include? His death on the cross seems to be what is meant by everything is accomplished. J:Since Revealtion was not yet written, it does not apply. But the argument goes, that the end of the world has not yet occurred and Jesus referenced that as well during his ministry. ************************************************* Me: Why didn't Jesus then say while on the cross "It is ALMOST finished" or "It will be finished when I come again". Or wait till He comes in the clouds and announce "Now it is finished". I think it is very plain that He came to earth, lived, died, and rose again, and at the cross announced the fulfillment of His purpose, and there is no confusion in that. And furthermore, when Jesus was talking to this young ruler, He had not died yet, and the law had not yet been fulfilled in His death for our sins. It seems to be very obvious that Jesus was trying to reach the heart of this man who was bound up in the law. You left out verses 20-22 where the whole point of the story involves this man giving up his worldly desires and be willing to leave all and follow Him! | ||
| Skeeter Registered user Username: Skeeter Post Number: 64 Registered: 12-2007 |
"I know a lot of Christians see this text as the road to eternal life BUT is it, the text never mentions anything about eternal life. I have a different view on this text and that is it is applying to our day to day living." I had never thought about it that way. But of course I had always looked at that text as well as others through SDA lenses. | ||
| Grace_alone Registered user Username: Grace_alone Post Number: 1500 Registered: 6-2006 |
Amen, Barb! | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 2836 Registered: 10-2004  |
Jim, you left out verses 25-26 of Matthew 19:
Notice that Jesus says that it is impossible for any man to be saved. God has to save you. Your works, your commandment-keeping, your effort, is all of no effect. You have to give up and trust in Jesus alone to save you.
These commandments are not just from the Decalogue, but rather the whole Law/Torah. The last commandment He named is from outside the Decalogue, and also in Mark's version, He adds another commandment ("Do not defraud") from outside the Decalogue. Jeremy | ||
| Handmaiden Registered user Username: Handmaiden Post Number: 52 Registered: 7-2008 |
Animal i loved what you said. Love God, love one another, love your enemies this is the heart of God and the heart of the law. AMEN River says which have these commandments have you kept???? NONE. None in my own power and strength only in Jesus have i kept the commandments. i am no longer IN Adam i am IN Christ.. when HE kept the commandments all of them perfectly then so did i..when He died i died IN HIM..when He rose i rose to newness of life. Apart from HIM i can do NOTHING!!!! IN HIM i can do all things. What Leigh Anne says is so true you can not take the the scripture in isolated verses but must take them in context and as a whole picture. What is the whole picture???? It is JESUS in both the Old Testament and the New Testament It is JESUS. HE is the WORD made flesh. Jim you are trying way too hard to understand these things. You cannot know God or His word with your MIND. These things are SPIRITUALLY discerned. You must come to God in FAITH. God made it so easy ...so anyone, anywhere at any time can come to salvation, because He is NOT WILLING that any should perish. We do not have to know everything or understand everything to be saved. We come to God as little children come to a loving father with trust in our hearts that He will show us the way. He says if you ask me for a fish will I give you a serpent?? If you ask for bread will I give you a stone?? Jim nothing stands between you and the Father now, Jesus has paid your sin debt in full. He has clothed you in His robes of righteousness..He will teach you all you need to know all you have to do is open your Bible and ask Him to teach you His ways. Ask Him to reveal the truth to you. Ask Him to protect you from deception and the lies of the enemy. You can TRUST the ONE who did not with hold even His own Son from us but freely gave Him that we might know Him and have fellowship with Him. Father i just lift my brother before your throne of grace. i ask You meet him at the place of his deepest need. i ask you to minister to him as only You can. Where he is weak be His strength, where he struggles make him an overcomer, where He hurts anoint him with your healing oil. Take him by the hand and walk with him and talk to him and teach him your ways. in the precious name of Jesus i ask for these things. Thank you Father for your great love for all of us. Thank you for your tender care. Thank you that you know what we have need of before we even ask and have the answers on their way. we love you so much and are so grateful for all of your many blessings love handmaiden | ||
| Jim02 Registered user Username: Jim02 Post Number: 870 Registered: 5-2007 |
Leigh Anne, That was my whole point. I am trying to combine passages together to form a closed circle of understanding. The whole unit of a doctrine. Leaving nothing out. As evident by the responses, it is an impossibility. It appears to me that is is not possible to embrace all the scriptures at the same time. If I tact to the law I miss the mark, if I tact to Spiritual I miss another mark. I cannot bring the two together. That leaves a great deal of scripture disconnected. I am becoming convinced that I am possibly not wired to grasp things presented in the way I am recieving it. and /or I cannot learn from this approach or method. Seriously, I am thinking letting go is the only option left. | ||
| Grace_alone Registered user Username: Grace_alone Post Number: 1501 Registered: 6-2006 |
"Leigh Anne, That was my whole point. I am trying to combine passages together to form a closed circle of understanding. The whole unit of a doctrine. Leaving nothing out." *** That's not going to work Jim. That is not logical. Taking a verse here and a verse there and then pushing them together isn't going to make or help you understand doctrine. If you took a classic book like "Gone with the Wind" for instance, how would you read it? You would read it in order, and get a complete story. You said you read the NT several times already, but I don't quite understand why you would leave out the verses that Barb and Jeremy mentioned. Any reason? I'm thinking that you can let go of what you learned in the SDA church. Leigh Anne | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 10089 Registered: 12-2003  |
Yes, Jim, I think what you have to let go of is your understanding from the past. You have to come like a clean slate to the Lord Jesus, asking Him to help you read Scripture without any preset understanding. The point of the parable you mentioned above was NOT that one must keep the commandments to be saved. Jesus told the rich young ruler to keep the commandments because He already KNEW the man had been doing so. When the man responded that he had kept the commandments from his youth up, Jesus laid the punch line before him: The commandments were not able to save him. He had to give up what he most loved and treasured and follow Jesus in order to gain life. The point of this parable is that the commandments don't do it. It's the giving up of what we love and following Jesus that results in life. Scarred4life, this parable is about true LIFE, not physical, day-to-day-ness. When Jesus says you'll have life, He isn't talking about sunup to sundown and rewarding living. Life is having a living spirit that never dies, even if our bodies are still decaying. Until the resurrection, our bodies do not have life. We live in mortal tents. Our spirits are alive when we accept Jesus, but our bodies are dead. When Jesus says to give up all and follow Him so one can have life, He's not talking about having a fulfilled life now. He's talking about real, eternal, true life. When Jesus talks about LIFE, he's not referring to temporary existence within mortal tents. Jim, one last thought--The questions you are asking are not resolved in words or logic or philosophy. They are resolved in Jesus. It is not impossible to resolve these things. It requires, however, that we let go of our analysis and submit our minds to the Lord Jesus alone. He is a real person; He's not a theory. The problem here is that the issues of life are not theory. These are reality, but they are not logical reality. You have to give up your right to yourself and your own brain's analysis, Jim. You have to decide that knowing and having only Jesus will be all you need. You have to be willing to lose your control over events and salvation and relationships and your own life... The issue you face is not understanding. It is surrender. Colleen | ||
| Jrt Registered user Username: Jrt Post Number: 667 Registered: 10-2008 |
Jim, Jim, This is said, written with deep concern and care and love. It may not feel like it - BUT it is. I do not pray for people as I have prayed for you unless I deeply care ... and I DO ... So CUT IT OUT!!! Get down on your knees right now. Yes, your knees - not because it is the "only" way to pray to get God to act. BUT it reveals a posture of submission. YOU, MY FRIEND, need to ask God's forgiveness for your unwillingness to submit your mind and heart to Him. You need to DIE to your right to yourself. Don't analyze that! Just go to God in prayer and ask Him to help you die to yourself. And turn your right to yourself over to a God. JIM, PLEASE, it has been said numerous times. SUBMIT, SUBMIT, ... Go to God and ask Him to take control of you. Let it GO! It is time ... otherwise you will continue to spin, spin, spin ... and feel like you are going nowhere. Listen, I do care, I really do and because I do I am risking your anger. It is because I have been praying for you constantly ... because I really do care. Go to God now! Tell Him you give up ... your life is His. Ask Him to forgive you ... and then read the book of Galatians in one sitting. Ask God to teach you what you should know. And tomorrow do the same and read Galatians again. Jim, I'm praying ... Keri | ||
| Seekinglight Registered user Username: Seekinglight Post Number: 258 Registered: 3-2009 |
Jim, take a listen to this talk: http://www.oneplace.com/ministries/The_White_Horse_Inn/archives.asp?bcd=5/24/2009 It helped me to start seeing the role of the law and how it relates to the Gospel. Before you listen, ask God to help you to hear what you need to know. I'll pray that for you, too! | ||
| Jim02 Registered user Username: Jim02 Post Number: 871 Registered: 5-2007 |
I prayed tonight. About all of it. I am letting theology go as it were. I talked with my sister at length about this tonight. And I had a timely email from a good friend today. I do not have answers about most of the things and that's ok. I know enough to simply trust in Jesus. He said I am worth more than the sparrows. I have placed my all in His care and that's all I could ever do. I cannot manufacture security, I cannot hold onto anything He does not already give me. I fall or stand by His hand, always have. He is not in the tempest, not in the debates. He is that still small voice. Old habits , and old ways are hard to change, but I have resolved to let a lot of things go. Stop defending myself, stop asking questions and just be. Jim | ||
| Asurprise Registered user Username: Asurprise Post Number: 872 Registered: 7-2007 |
Jim, you brought up the commandments/law. Did you know that the book of Galatians says that the law STARTED 430 years AFTER Abraham and was to be UNTIL the Seed (Christ) would come?! It's in Galatians 3:17-19. You mentioned Matthew 5:17,18. The Adventists use that same argument. Why?????? Don't you/they know that when it says "one jot or tittle will by no means pass from the law" it means not one JOT OR TITTLE!!! Not circumcision. Not the sacrifices either. It's talking about the whole law and the prophets. It's either been fulfilled by Christ's death - the WHOLE 613 commands, including the 10 commandments - or it's not been. If it hasn't been, then you need to sacrifice animals and get circumcised. Jesus is very clearly talking about ALL the law and the prophets here - so it's either ALL been fulfilled or none of it has. Splitting the law into the Adventist pieces is an Adventist invention. It's not scriptural. | ||
| Grace_alone Registered user Username: Grace_alone Post Number: 1502 Registered: 6-2006 |
Dianne, if you read some of the previous posts, you'll see the subject was already hashed out... Jim, Hang in there and try to be patient. God is faithful! He'll get you through this.  Leigh Anne | ||
| Jrt Registered user Username: Jrt Post Number: 668 Registered: 10-2008 |
Jim, Halleluiah! I am praising God! He is faithful! And it is He that promises to never leave you or forsake you when you "simply trust in Jesus". He is your life now. Jesus promises in John 14:6 "I am the way, the truth, and the life". Truth, Life, and the way flow from "simply trusting in Jesus", and not oneself. I will continue to pray for you and I am praising God Who IS the Author and Finisher of your faith. Keri | ||
| Benevento Registered user Username: Benevento Post Number: 296 Registered: 4-2005 |
Jim I know Colleen recommended you read the New Testament carefully and often and i don't want to argue with that, but I recently read a book that also might help. It is Classic Christianity by Bob George. You can get information about purchasing it at www.realanswers.net. He also has a call in radio program that you can find out about at that web site. He just might help with some of your questions. Praying for your peace . Peggy | ||
| Jim02 Registered user Username: Jim02 Post Number: 872 Registered: 5-2007 |
Asurprise, I have seen that very thing myself. Presently, I am about to begin a new reading in Galatians using my NIV Study Bible. I still have a thousand questions, however, I have choosen to stop asking questions because it does not help and they only add to more confusion, tangents and non sequiturs. My attitude, what I am attempting to embrace, is to continue reading my Bible(s), listening, reading studies, articles, sermons etc and prayer. Since I have constantly found myself in endless debates, ridicule and embarassment and capped by utter frustration. I have finally realized, anything I recieve and embrace will be as a gift. I can only hold to a "trusting faith" in Christ as I have also realized, I will never be able to prove any interpretaion or theology beyond all doubt. This propensity to prove doctrine, to be "right" has an "air of wisdom" but it too has become another measure of merit and works. My salvation cannot be based upon how smart I am or upon how many facets (doctrines) of scripture I am able to actualize into verifiable truth. I am weary of this vicious cycle. The thought that I have is this; "I cannot force God to speak to me on my terms". In fact I believe if He did so, His very presence or words would crush me. I would be undone as it were. So rather than my attempting to process truth about God on "my" terms, I am beggining to realize that this is not the right approach at all. Simply spoken, I am trusting God to show me what He wants me to know, when He wants me to know it, and in what sequence. As well as to what extent and relavance. It is possible, that I will never know the same things that so many others know, and that's ok. Jim | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 7161 Registered: 3-2004  |
Jim, It is good to see you become more trusting of God. You said, "Simply spoken, I am trusting God to show me what He wants me to know, when He wants me to know it, and in what sequence. As well as to what extent and relavance. It is possible, that I will never know the same things that so many others know, and that's ok." You have grown a lot. I will continue to pray for you. Diana L | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 10092 Registered: 12-2003 |
Jim, praise God! He is faithful; He is obligated to Himself—because there is no higher authority—to keep His promises. He will teach you; revelation follows obedience to submit to Him! Praying for you, Colleen | ||
| Handmaiden Registered user Username: Handmaiden Post Number: 56 Registered: 7-2008 |
Jim i am soooo happy for you There is so much freedom in letting go and letting God have His way in our lives. i am so excited to soon hear you share what He is speaking to your heart. Just can't wait to celebrate ....joy joy joy !!!!!!!!! i so love reading the Word and having a verse leap off the page and become real to my heart. i pray you will have many, many such experiences God bless you with wisdom, insight and understanding as you read His word again for the FIRST TIME much love handmaiden only one thing is needful to sit at His feet and learn of HIM i love these little happy faces : | ||
| Scarred4life Registered user Username: Scarred4life Post Number: 39 Registered: 1-2009 |
Colleen, I believe that the Bible isn't just there for our eternal salvation alone - that is the ultimate goal of course. I believe that it's also so we can live a more fulfilling life now, Today. If we follow God we should expect his blessings to be poured out upon us in our everyday lives, this is part of being a Christian so like back in the days of the Israelites other people will look at us and say WOW what have they got that we don't. Although sometimes we don't seem to do a great job of advertising it, people look at us Christians sometimes and are more likely to say why would I want that. Unfortunately that is part of being human and as the Israelites showed us time and time again. | ||
| Raven Registered user Username: Raven Post Number: 1040 Registered: 7-2004  |
Paul's life wasn't a great advertisement for Christianity, see 2 Corinthians 11:23-27 for an extensive list of the hardships he went through specifically because he was a Christian. Besides, what about the verse that says the rain falls on the just and the unjust, just as the sun does. If a Christian has hardships, it should not be because they are not following God's leading - but Christians will often have many problems, the whole sword and division thing that naturally happens when evil is confronted with good. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 10097 Registered: 12-2003 |
Yes, Raven--I agree. The main things that advertises Christianity to the world is that we love each other and that we have peace that natural man cannot understand. Scarred4life, I agree that Jesus DID promise that our earthly lives would be different because we have Him. The essence of the parable above, however, refers to "life"—not to this physical existence which in natural man is actually a "living death" because of our naturally dead spirits. When God gives us "life", He brings our dead spirits to life, and that life is eternal life. It begins now in our mortal tents and continues forever, through our deaths when our spirits are separated from our mortal tents and go to be with the Lord, and into our resurrection. "Life" cannot be separated from the new birth. Without the new birth, we are actually dead and objects of wrath (Ephesians 2:1-10). That "life" totally changes our physical lives now. Colleen |
