| Author | Message | ||
| Jrt Registered user Username: Jrt Post Number: 604 Registered: 10-2008 |
I've been reading in John 3 where Nicodemus and Jesus are talking about being born again. Recently, I had a conversation with a former about what IS the difference between an SDA understanding of being "born again" and what an evangelical understands of that phrase. SDA's believe that when you are "born again" you are given a new heart. That new heart helps you keep the law and that is the new birth. Also, you have access to the Holy Spirit to help you do the "right" things. OK - mercy, me! I just looked up the verse that SDA's use. Yeh, aha, moment. I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; I will cleanse you from all your impurities and from all your idols. I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you; I will remove from you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh. And I will put my Spirit in you and move you to follow my decrees and be careful to keep my laws. Ez. 36:25-27; NIV I had never seen the "put a new spirit in you" before. Wow! Now, I also realize, this text seems to be a prophesy to the nation of Israel if I read back through - How the Lord will gather Israel from the nations and bring them back to their own land. So this relates to Israel. So do SDA's just see the new birth as an ability to access the Holy Spirit who helps them live rightly. Is that how they define "the new birth". An evangelical sees it as literally a new spirit and given the Holy Spirit who leads us to Jesus Who is our righteousness. Our spirit now desires God, communicates with God, and we now desire to do rightly. Is that Correct? So can anyone flesh out that phrase more, "born again". And what it means to an SDA and what it means to a Christian? I think this is important as we define differences between evangelicals and SDA's. Thanks, Keri P.S. So what is the difference between "accessing" the Holy Spirit's power to live rightly and having the Spirit living in us - prompting us to do rightly? Or having an "alive" spirit? As I said, I just want to flesh all this out a little more ... | ||
| Joyfulheart Registered user Username: Joyfulheart Post Number: 612 Registered: 10-2006 |
Hi Keri, That is a great question and post. I can tell you what it means and has meant in my life. The Bible talks about being transfered to out of the old kingdom of darkness (where Satan has been given dominion) into the kingdom of light (God's Kingdom). When I was born again, it's was kind of like the song I learned as a child. "Turn your eyes upon Jesus Look full in his wonderful face And the things of earth will grow strangely dim In the light of His glory and grace." When I was born again, I had the strangest desire to read the Bible - to know every promise I could claim, to know every way to please God and avoid things that didn't. I wanted to know how He interacted with the those who believed Him in the Old and New Testaments. Hearing those stories was much more than hearing those stories. They were now real life examples of things God did with and through other people - and could do in and through me! I was now a child will a King and wanted desperately to know and please Him. It wasn't like in Adventism. It was not a fear based thing. It wasn't a set of rules. It was a new relationship with someone I loved with all my heart. It was a clear "knowing" that I was no longer my own. I was of the kingdom of God now and there was no going back. It was again a "knowing" that the Holy Spirit was inside of me. It was not a highly emotional experience, but my whole life changed. My priorities changed. My dreams changed. My perspectives changed. My values changed - and by in large I didn't undersand. The people around me didn't either. The born again believers around me understood completely. I want to add that I grew up in a non-Adventist Christian home and am from a long line of pastors. I knew all about Jesus - all the stories, all the lessons. The problem was that I knew all about Jesus without knowing Him. I compare it to knowing the president of the United States. I know who Barack Obama is. I know lots of things about him and his family. I know a lot about the things he values (whether I agree with them or not). I may have even read his book. If I were in a situation face to face with him right now though we would have to be introduced. The president would have to announce that he does not know me and never has. We have never talked, written or met. I love telling the story about how I met Jesus. I call it "Missing heaven by 18 inches." Can't wait to meet you and everyone else coming to the meetings in Berrien Springs!  Joyfulheart | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 4979 Registered: 9-2006  |
Having access means that it is outside, while living inside means becoming part of our spirits. There is a big difference and I am not sure prompting is the right word, although I can't think of a word that fits. Produce (or) bring into being might be a better description. Having the Holy Spirit inside and just yielding to his will might better say it, but prompting? The Adventist prompts himself to try and access the Holy Spirit. While with the born again person the Holy Spirit accesses him. Or has accessed him. Well, I tried Keri. River | ||
| Seekinglight Registered user Username: Seekinglight Post Number: 215 Registered: 3-2009 |
I have more to add to this question, if I may. When we're born again, does that mean our new spirit is good while our bodies are still evil? (the reason why we still struggle with sin). I heard somewhere that this idea is not Biblical. Also, where are our spirits located? Are they in our bodies? It says in Ephesians that we are sitting with Him in heavenly places. Is that figurative, or are our spirits actually up there with His now? Also, can our spirits act independently of our thought processes? For example, if I'm busy lecturing a class, can my spirit be doing something else, like praying for someone? Can my spirit be happy when my emotions are actually negative or sad? I realize we may not know the answer to these now, but I'm curious... | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 4981 Registered: 9-2006 |
Quote: Also, where are our spirits located? Are they in our bodies? It says in Ephesians that we are sitting with Him in heavenly places. Is that figurative, or are our spirits actually up there with His now? I think I can answer that, our bodies are the house of our spirit. Our spirits are still here, heavenly places have come to us. River | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 9967 Registered: 12-2003  |
I don't think we can fully answer all these questions. The spirit is immaterial, so there's no way for us to analyze it scientifically because we are in a physical world limited to three dimensions inside time. Regarding the body and the spirit: Romans 8:10 says, "If Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness." Yes, our mortal tents become the habitation of the Holy Spirit! Yet, because of the fact that we have died to sin by accepting Jesus' death and sacrifice for us, our still-dead bodies are not our eternal definition. We are alive because of righteousness—the righteousness of Christ which God credits to us because of our faith in Him (see Romans 4 and 5). Because we are no longer slaves to sin but are slaves to God because of our new birth (Romans 6:22), we are admonished to stop presenting the members of our bodies to sin as slaves to unrighteousness, but instead to present them to righteousness resulting in sanctification (Romans 6:13, 19). Our bodies do not "drive" our salvation or condemnation. Our eternal spiritual condition depends upon our being natural (in Adam) or reborn (in Christ). Our bodies follow our spiritual condition. When we are dead in sin, we have no option but to sin and offer the members of our bodies to sin as instruments of lawlessness resulting in further lawlessness. Now that we are born again, though, we can choose to offer our members as slaves of righteousness. We certainly do still struggle with sin because our mortal "tents" are not yet glorified. We have all sorts of genetic and habituated predispositions to sin. But according to Romans 6, our new spirits write the death sentence on our natural tendencies to sin. We are no longer slaves to sin because we are no longer spiritually dead! We are now alive and can submit our bodies and minds to God. Adventists will say the Holy Spirit is in them, but they explain that in terms of the HS giving them mental acuity. They do not explain it in terms of having a completely new LIFE inside. They cannot understand that Adam and Eve literally did die the day they sinned; they became spiritually disconnected from God. They died. Their bodies dies later. We are saved in that same order. Our spirits come to life; we are spiritually reconnected to our Father Himself by the Holy Spirit through Christ Jesus when we place faith in Him. Our bodies are not yet saved; they are redeemed at the resurrection when we receive our glorified bodies. Colleen | ||
| Jrt Registered user Username: Jrt Post Number: 606 Registered: 10-2008 |
First, thanks Joyfulheart for your candid expression of what life has been like for you in the "spirit". I resonated with what you said. And River, you did just fine . I always appreciate your posts and thoughts. Colleen, as always, I appreciate your thoughts and use of scripture. NOW HELP! Let me explain ... I have been working with a coop group of Christians who homeschool and are REALLY struggling with understanding Adventism and its nuances and differences. I and another former explained to this group that Adventists don't believe in "spirit". Those on the coop don't see this in the literature of Adventism (web sites, etc.) where it says this. One gal is now studying the Adventist Church Manual - to get a better grasp of Adventism! Yes, can you believe it! I am really impressed with this group. Now, here is a copy of something I sent her after a conversation on Adventists don't believe that people have a "spirit" ... and then I'll post her response ... do you see the confusion? She is being candid with me to help me understand her confusion.
So any thoughts on helping a non-SDA understand that SDA's don't believe in "immortal spirit"? Or how to explain this concept? We (other former and I) have tried to explain it several times. *** Again, understanding a dead vs. an alive spirit/soul and what goes to God when you die. Adventists don't believe this ---- I'm just wondering if I'm using the "right language" to explain this to a non-SDA. Keri P.S. So this goes back to the original question: What does it mean to be born again? I know, Colleen, you are using Romans to explain it and I will reread your post. But try me again ... my mind feels like it is missing something? | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 2792 Registered: 10-2004  |
Keri, Have you told them that Adventists believe in total cessation of consciousness while dead? The SDAs actually have a formula for explaining their belief: spirit = breath body + breath = soul They then say that when a person dies, they no longer have "breath" ("spirit") and therefore there is no "soul" any longer, either (the "soul" ceases to exist, because it only exists as a "body" + "breath"). Therefore, there is no such thing as a dead soul or a dead spirit, according to Adventism. They simply believe in materialism, and don't believe in anything immaterial (for example, no immaterial part of man). According to the Bible, to be born again means that your spirit has been "born" (thus, your second birth--the first birth being your physical natural birth, and the second birth/"born again" being your spiritual birth). Our spirit is brought to life for the first time (except for Adam and Eve, of course, who had previously had living spirits). So, in a nutshell, being born again means that your spirit has been brought from death (disconnected from God) to life (connected to God). But it's not just "life." It's "eternal life"--which means that your spirit has been connected to God for eternity. John 3:6 says that is is our spirit that is "born" when we are "born again." Jeremy (Message edited by jeremy on June 11, 2009) | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 4983 Registered: 9-2006 |
Keri, It took me about three years to really understand Adventism, which included a complete refresher course in theology and a group is going to understand it in a small study? Hmmmm. Of course I admit I am very slow and plod along like an old mule pulling a plow. One thing I would like to interject here is that Adventism is under the control of Satanic forces and it has a real spiritual pull toward it and its like playing with matches in a dry field and not safe to mess around with at all. I hope all these people got the doctrine of grace down real good while they are messing with this. me, I just about as soon give them a wigi board to play with. Its just my opinion and opinions are like donkey dooky, they are all over the place. River P.S. Not only that I believe I was called to look into it, I may not have been, God knows me better than I know myself. | ||
| Hec Registered user Username: Hec Post Number: 259 Registered: 3-2009 |
Here is Mr. Simpleton again. I always struggled with the statement that we are sitted with Jesus in Heaven. The problem of the Holy Spirit living in us as in "Don't you know that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit" also bothered me, because SDA use that to forbid a whole lot of stuff, like wine, pork, etc. as implying that if we destroy the temple which is our body God would destroy us. Now if "us" is the body plus breath, and we already had destroyed the temple (body), what is God going to destroy? Back to sitting in heavenly places. If at the new birth, the Holy Spirit comes to our spirit and resides in us, then since the Holy Spirit is God Himself, then God is living in us and He is also living in the heavenly places, so in this sense I'm sitting in heavenly places, not because of me, but because of the Spirit who lives in me. If SDA do not believe that the "real Holy Spirit lives in us" then how could we sit in the heavenly places with Jesus? So, am I understanding this, or am I all wet? Hec | ||
| Jrt Registered user Username: Jrt Post Number: 607 Registered: 10-2008 |
Jeremy, Thanks, this was helpful. I will probably cut and past part of what you've written into an email to her again. River, Yes, thanks for the reminder. You've been at it 3 years and have an amazing understanding. These people - at least the one I'm most in contact with does have grace down. It is a complicated situation, I won't go into ... I'm just thankful they are willing to try to understand. And River, since I've been an SDA all my life ... I'm wondering if I'm missing something - meaning trying to explain with words to someone who has a totally different background/words than I ... But you are right there is a deceptive spirit behind Adventism and it deceives even the evangelicals. Funny, just was going through some papers of mine tonight. Found some sermon notes from before my eyes were open. Also, went through some papers of some speaking engagements I was involved in ... Threw it all away ... In some ways I really did try to help others see Jesus (at least that was what my notes indicated) in other ways I was just as confused. Keri | ||
| Dennis Registered user Username: Dennis Post Number: 1700 Registered: 4-2000  |
At worst, most people think they are only partially dead in trespasses and sins. I suppose one could say that Adventists believe they are only sick or just a little sick in sin. Not long ago, however, I failed to convince a prominent Adventist of being a sinner. Adventists try not to think about their inability to perfectly obey God's moral laws. One of my favorite passages in the entire Bible (relating to the assurance of salvation) is found in Ps. 32:1-2 and quoted by Paul in Romans 4:7-8:
Lest we may think that there is somehow a "little island of righteousness" left in us, consider the following Pauline passage:
With such radical depravity due to our original sin condition, the very best news is that salvation is from the Lord alone. The problem is not that various believers don't give God any glory, but rather that they don't give Him the glory ALONE. Dennis Fischer | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 9974 Registered: 12-2003 |
Keri, just to add a descriptive sentence to Jeremy's explanation, Adventists believe they die like animals. Their literal breath is what goes back to God. They have a different lexicon than Christians; same words, different meanings. For an Adventist, "spirit" equals "breath"--the literal air that moves in the respiratory system. The Holy Spirit simply gives them enlightenment in their cognitive brains. The idea of new birth is not only mystifying to them but annoying. For an Adventist, the resurrection is actually a re-creation. It is not the actual same person. It is a reconstruction out of God's memory. When a person dies, he vanishes from existence like the pet dog does. I'm trying in vain to remember where I read recently--it almost seems it was in a SS Quarterly--an actual Adventist article that stated the resurrection was a re-creation. Colleen | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 2793 Registered: 10-2004 |
Colleen, Yes, it is in the current quarter's Lesson 3:
So not only are you not the same person/spirit (instead being a "re-creation"), but you (or the person who looks like you!) don't even have the same body! Jeremy (Message edited by jeremy on June 11, 2009) | ||
| Hec Registered user Username: Hec Post Number: 263 Registered: 3-2009 |
Jeremy, Do you think that we will have the same bodies at resurrection? Hec | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 2794 Registered: 10-2004 |
Hec, Absolutely! The SDA teaching that we have "new" bodies is simply the teaching of reincarnation (except that they deny the spirit, too!). According to Merriam-Webster's dictionary, reincarnation is:
1 Corinthians 15 explains that our resurrection body will be like Jesus' resurrection body. His body was glorified, but it certainly was the same body. Remember, there was no body in the tomb--the tomb was empty! Also, verse 51 of 1 Corinthians 15 says that "we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed," (NASB). If the living Christians received completely new bodies at the Rapture, then they would have to die momentarily as they get a "change of bodies." Our bodies are resurrected. We are not reincarnated. Our bodies will be raised glorified, changed, and imperishable--but there is a connection to the old body that died (see verses 35-38 of 1 Corinthians 15). Jeremy (Message edited by jeremy on June 11, 2009) | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 2795 Registered: 10-2004 |
Also, remember that Jesus even had the same scars in His resurrected body--so it certainly was not a different body. Jeremy (Message edited by jeremy on June 11, 2009) | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 4986 Registered: 9-2006 |
I heard an Adventist say that God had super computers and he had the memory on some kind of hard drive, can you believe that kind of non-sense? I bout swallowed my gum! River | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 2796 Registered: 10-2004 |
And then they also say that the "new birth" is simply God "reformatting" the "hard drive" of our brains! LOL. Jeremy | ||
| Hec Registered user Username: Hec Post Number: 266 Registered: 3-2009 |
Please, catch me before I fall. I'm very dizzy now. I was getting used to the idea that the real me is the spirit. That the spirit would go to God at death and Jesus will make a new body (tent, housing) to place the real me (spirit) in it for eternity. Now, the idea of my real body will be resurrected goes a little bit too far. Yes, Jesus could get His own body. It didn't even decomposed. But keeping in mind that the body is just "matter" (chemicals, minerals, etc) I don't see the need for my own body to be resurrected. I go in a cruise and fall overboard. The sharks eat me up then excrete part of me, and part of me becomes part of the sharks. Then the shrimps, lobsters, etc. eat the excrete of the sharks and part of that becomes part of them and they excrete some of eat, then River eats some of the lobsters, and so the chain continues. Where is my body? The water, the chemicals, the minerals, etc.? God would have to re-create that body anyways from the materials. Does it matters if He takes the materials from the bottom of the sea or from anywhere else? Iron is iron and so forth. Now, if I have a spirit and that is the real me, then it doesn't matter what kind of housing he puts me in. Now, SDA believe that there is no immaterial part of me. In that case, it would be a recreation. Recreation of body and whatever else gives the body life. There is nothing to resurrect. Hec |
