| Author | Message | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 2775 Registered: 10-2004  |
Hi Bob, I'm curious--were you raised SDA, or did you join SDA at some point? "What did you all believe when you were Adventists?" Hopefully others will respond also, but I was taught (and I know that a lot of other formers and current SDAs--here and on CARM, etc. have affirmed something similar) growing up in Adventism, and I believed, that there were three separate Beings who all lived together like a family in heaven. In fact, I had never even heard of the Trinitarian teaching that God is actually "one Being" until I read something that Chris had written on this forum way back in 2004 (either when I had first joined the forum, or before I was a member). Although, I had been transitioning out of Adventism for a number of months to about a year at that point, and had already been starting to understand the deity of Christ, the Trinity, etc. I also had a few instances of exposure to Christian teaching on the subject, even while I was still in Adventism, which made me think. Jeremy (Message edited by jeremy on June 05, 2009) | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 2776 Registered: 10-2004 |
I probably should also mention that in all of my extensive research over the past 3+ years, I have found only one person in Adventism (answering a question about which denomination to join, on the help section of the UK Adventist site) who may believe in the Trinity (depending on their definitions of the words they use), although it actually appears that they simply plagiarized a definition of the Trinity from a Lutheran website in the UK! This is one of the things that I find the most incredible--that, even when I tried, I wasn't able to find any part of Adventism that teaches Trinitarianism!!! Jeremy | ||
| Hec Registered user Username: Hec Post Number: 241 Registered: 3-2009 |
I think the problem with Bob is the problem with most SDAs specially outside the USA. In USA, we have many books, libraries, the Web, etc that allow us to be more exposed to the teachings of denominations other than SDAs. (Please understand that I'm not saying that where Bob lives, they don't have this access. What I'm saying is that they don't have it in most places in the third world countries.) Because of this lack of "information", even the pastors don't have extensive training and/or books where to learn from. So the only learning they have is what they learned in "seminary" which in many cases is just two years after high school. Equivalent to an AA in USA. Then they go out in the field "to pastor". They have to take care of 8-10 churches so they don't have time to study. They prepare a sermon and preach it in ten different churches, so they don't have the time or the resources to study. This, makes them depend on whatever they learned in those two years of college and whatever the "Conference/Union" sends then via some local magazines. Because of this they concentrate in the "intelligible" doctrines like the Sabbath, the state of the dead, the clean and unclean foods, tithes, EGW, and the like. Doctrines like the IJ, the Trinity, Salvation, etc. are very difficult even for the pastors to explain. They just have the few proof-text and if you get then out of that, they will not be able to come up with a Bible answer. So they will close up because they think that one is trying to trick them. Fortunately, things are changing with the Web. Many places where there are no libraries, now have Web access and exposure to these truth. But it will take a while. If you ask most SDAs in a third world counry what is the difference between SDA and any other denomination, they will say: the Sabbath, the clean foods, and the state of the dead. The rest some might mention but would not be able to explain. If you want to test this, ask, even in the USA any Adventist to explain the IJ and you'll see that they cannot even using EGW. We criticize the Catholic Church for depending on their priests to tell them what is truth, but we do the same. We learn a couple of proof-test and that means that our doctrines are biblical. Oh, well, I'll stop ranting. Hec | ||
| Bobalou Registered user Username: Bobalou Post Number: 59 Registered: 2-2005 |
Jeremy ask: "I'm curious--were you raised SDA, or did you join SDA at some point?" My wife and I joined the church in our early 20s. I do not ever remember a study on the Trinity. We grew up in the Methodist Church. The baptismal vow asks: Do you believe in God the Father, in His Son Jesus Christ and in the Holy Spirit. I never questioned if their "real" belief varied with mainstream Christianity. (Message edited by bobalou on June 05, 2009) (Message edited by bobalou on June 05, 2009) | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 9944 Registered: 12-2003  |
This issue of the "Adventist Trinity" is one that particularly gets me going. They publicly use words to describe their official belief that sound orthodox. A casual observer would never guess they didn't believe in the orthodox Trinity. I had no idea I didn't believe in the traditional, orthodox understanding of the Trinity until about three or four years ago. I also had never heard the "One Being" understanding taught before it was presented on this forum. In fact, I didn't know I didn't believe that until I read the explanations of the "One Being" idea. I was raised to understand the Trinity like Jeremy said he was taught it. The metaphor I learned was the family--three people with the same last name functioning as a family unit but with three individual people with different personalities, functions, talents, and interests. I never understood the Trinity to be one Being expressed in Three Persons. I never understood each person of the Trinity to have ALL the attributes of God equally—in other words, Jesus wasn't one-third of God; He had ALL of God in Himself. There is no "God power" in the Father or the Spirit that Jesus doesn't also have; ditto for each of the members. Moreover, I understood Jesus to be just like we are, with no advantage we don't have. That meant that, just as I believed I was "body plus breath" and had no literal spirit, neither did Jesus. The fact that I had absolutely no conception of spiritual reality meant that I understood Jesus to have inherited Mary's sinful genes, thus making Him somewhat weakened and able to sin but managing not to--which made Him my example. If He kept the law, I could too. I always "saw" Jesus as less than the Father, somehow milder and more sympathetic and more accommodating--a sort-of "demi-god" who was not the almighty, all-powerful, sovereign of the universe. Adventism's trinity is not the same as mainstream Christianity's. It is a "god-family"--three separate beings. A few months ago I had a phone call from an Adventist who wanted to argue about the Trinity after reading an article in Proclamation. When I asked him if he believed God was not only one in purpose and intent but also of one substance, he couldn't answer me. He clearly did NOT believe the members of the Trinity were of one substance. Colleen | ||
| Animal Registered user Username: Animal Post Number: 491 Registered: 7-2008  |
What do you mean when you say "of one substance"? Answering that might go a long way to help me in my understanding of the Trinity. I would appreciate any input. Thanks....Animal | ||
| Psalm107v2 Registered user Username: Psalm107v2 Post Number: 280 Registered: 10-2008  |
My experience with SDAs has been a hog pog. When I was in high school I asked my assistant pastor/religion teacher questions about the trinity and I settled upon a modalism view which he endorsed Through the years people said "we believe in the Trinity" but I never ever heard it defined. When I became a Christian I made a study of EVERY doctrine and through that study came to a a Biblical understanding of the Trinity (attending seminary also helped) I've asked a number of SDAs to give me one verse that supports that each member of the Trinity is fully God--and most can't. The only time I have gotten a straight answer is on Facebook when a couple of them used the creeds. One fellow I went back and forth with for several days who was so bent on Ellen White's writings for his definitions. It got to the pont where my wife would say "are you arguing with that Robert guy again". has anyone here been to an SDA seminary? What do they teach at that level/in that environment Enoch | ||
| Animal Registered user Username: Animal Post Number: 492 Registered: 7-2008 |
I attended SMC during the 80's and the Trinity was a subject that wasnt taught in my classes. I guess they assumed no one had a problem in understanding the doctrine. In fact the IJ wasnt much of an issue either, despite Des Ford and Glacier View. The main issue on campus those days was wearing jewelry and public display of affection(PDA).....sigh. ...Animal | ||
| Ric_b Registered user Username: Ric_b Post Number: 714 Registered: 7-2004  |
The more discussions that I have had with current SDAs, the more I realize that SDAism does not teach the Trinity. Some SDAs have a very orthodox understanding of the Trinity, others have a belief that they call Trinity that is nothing like the Christian doctrine. But the SDA church is silent on the matter, allowing both to fall within the bounds of acceptable SDA doctrine. In my mind this is why SDAism doesn't teach much about the subject, they have no desire to place any line in the sand on the subject. One SDA on CARM went so far as to say that there were at least three beings in the Godhead. When I privately challenged an SDA pastor posting on CARM to correct this individual's warped statements about the Trinity, the pastor responded that he wasn't interested because the Trinity is really a mystery any how. When you dig beneath the surface, many SDA apologists do espouse that they believe the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are co-equal and co-eternal. But they believe that this description is sufficient to affirm Trinitarianism. There is no requirement that these three persons of God must also be One in Being. I have witnessed time and again that oneness is about agreement and purpose. Even SDAs affirming that the three person are made of the same substance will only affirm that there is a god-substance and each of the persons is made of that same stuff, not that they are truly One in Being. SDAism is deceptive in referring to their teaching as Trinitarian. It is only by redefining what is meant by the word "Trinity" that all of the teachings of the church can be lumped under this heading. Let me be clear, I am NOT saying that every SDA has a warped view of the Trinity. Many first and second generation SDAs retain what they (or their parents) learned about the Trinity before becoming SDA and accept the use of the word at face value. Other SDAs read extensively outside of SDA published material and, given the vacuum of specifics generally made available within SDAism have adopted orthodox views while having no idea that their view is any different than others in their same church or even pew. | ||
| Seekinglight Registered user Username: Seekinglight Post Number: 200 Registered: 3-2009 |
Well, if you believe that Jesus didn't have a spirit--as SDAs do, then you have to believe in 3 separate beings, so that two of them could still be around running the universe when Jesus died. Am I correct in this assumption? | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 4940 Registered: 9-2006  |
Ric_b, what I just heard you to say is SDA is sloppy, lazy, confounded, un-unsound, uncouth, un-wound, un-realistic,and you can believe anything you want as long as you pay your tithes and keep your mouth shut. That about sums it up. And Seekinglight, you have a very good point. River | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 2777 Registered: 10-2004 |
Seekinglight, that's right, they would have to have at least two separate divine beings. Also, if Jesus ceased to exist, and the universe ran fine without him, then their "Jesus" is actually unnecessary. That's pretty far from being the only true God! Jeremy | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 9945 Registered: 12-2003 |
Ric_b, very good points. And Seekinglight, your assumption sums it up. When we first left Adventism I KNEW I had come to know a Jesus very different from the Jesus I had always understood within Adventism. The frustrating thing, then, was trying to explain to myself, let alone to anyone else, what had been wrong with my perception of Jesus as an Adventist. Moreover, I got my understanding from my years of Bible classes and Sabbath School lessons, etc, and all the SDA kids I knew understood Jesus like I did. Yes, Rick, I think I did run into a few Adventists who had converted into Adventism from other denominations, who I believe may have truly known Jesus. I suspect my maternal grandmother was one of these. But Adventism permeated me and my family, and Sabbath had eclipsed Jesus even in her life to the point I never had reason to question any difference in perception. On the whole, the Adventists in my life reacted to Jesus the same ways I did, and I know they understood him to be "less than" the Father, milder, potentially fallible, just like us, etc. I actually feel deeply grateful that this subject is becoming clearer. Your experiences on CARM, Rick, and your research, Jeremy, are so revealing. There's a reason I felt almost confused or crazy as I came out of Adventism into Christianity and realized the Christians around me couldn't understand why I had left. I left because I had finally met Jesus, and I was changed. It's actually a relief to me to be able point to specific facts to explain this reality: Adventism doesn't teach the orthodox Trinity. Just this morning I heard Terry Swanson, campus chaplain at LLU, give a sermon in which he compared the Trinity to an egg...and then moved away from the subject and left it unexamined and unexplained. (He was referring to speaking with a Muslim student who told him he didn't believe in one God, to which he replied, "Yes, we do--three in one, one in three--kind of like an egg...." and he left it hanging there.) Colleen | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 2778 Registered: 10-2004 |
Colleen, Speaking of the SDA "god family," I just came across this quote yesterday for the upcoming lesson for September 8, 2009 in the 3rd quarter adult SDA quarterly:
Jeremy | ||
| Dennis Registered user Username: Dennis Post Number: 1696 Registered: 4-2000  |
Ric, Just a note of encouragement to say that you are doing a great job on CARM. Others have also told me about your able and important ministry there. I realize that it is not always easy to do. Some people, like yourself, are just better at it than others. May God continue to abundantly bless your online outreach ministry. Dennis Fischer | ||
| Jrt Registered user Username: Jrt Post Number: 587 Registered: 10-2008 |
Jeremy, I took Doctrine of the Holy Spirit in the SDA seminary at Andrews only a few years ago. I thought you might be interested in some thoughts from the syllabus and notes ... Here is a direct quote: 1.) The Spirit and the Lord are associated 2.) This suggests the Divinity of the Spirit 3.) The Spirit is able to change people which also suggests divine power 4) The language "Spirit of the Lord" is, ofcourse, very common in the O.T. Another quote: "The power of the Holy Spirit focuses on the miraculous restoration of human beings and so participates in the profound qualitities of God. Here is another quote and Spirit indicates Holy Spirit: "The Spirit implants a new spiritual DNA into the human being. The Spirit writes a new software program in us. This is the work of the Spirit: to form Christ in human beings. The beautiful reality of the Spirit's activity in the New Covenant does not happen automatically. It will happen only if we ask for the power of the Holy Spirit." In this section of the syllabus and notes it denotes the work of the Holy Spirit in someone's heart to be able to follow the law of God, i.e. 10 commandments that are summarized by Love God with all your heart and man as yourself. Another quote: "The problem is that the sinful heart drives the feet. The Holy Spirit is the essential bond of union between God's moral law of love and my sinful heart. Upon my request the Holy Spirit writes God's law of love on my heart. The atmosphere of love radiates from a person walking according to the Spirit." You see their is no indication of being DEAD in sin. And when we accept Christ's sacrifice we become alive to God. The Holy Spirit is given to us upon our request and He (The Holy Spirit) then writes God's moral law on our hearts.) Another quote: "The Spirit searches the depths of God exhibits intellectual qualities and those equaling God." This quote seems to indicate an equaling of God - but there is no indication that the Holy Spirit is God (trinitarian view) Thought you might like this one: "In his flesh, Jesus could not be with all the believers, but the 'Helper' will come to all no matter how many they be, nor where they live. This is so encouraging to us believers." Right there you see they indicate that Jesus is NOT omnipresent even though He was fully God on earth. Another quote, "The Holy Spirit is place in what we might call the Godhead, the Holy Trinity. This indicates the divinity of the Spirit." According to this class 2nd century Theophilus of Antioch was the first apologist to write "triad" and that is the first reference to the Trinity. This class does teach that modalism is anti-trinitarian. The syllabus states, "Trinity is different from tri-theism." They teach the history of "homocousious" = like substance "homoousios" = same substance and the Council of Nicea = Affirmed that Christ is homoousios with the Father. They do indicate that homoousios is correct,but two pages later they talk about Augustine and "equal substance" so they "coined this new "equal substance" which is not the same as "same substance". Lastly, the emphasis was that the Holy Spirit's work is to write the 10 commandments on our hearts. I was intrigues by this thread and thought I'd add to it - and that you might be interested Jeremy. | ||
| Jrt Registered user Username: Jrt Post Number: 588 Registered: 10-2008 |
Here is a web page for a discussion by White Horse Inn on the Christian Trinity Doctrine. http://www.modernreformation.org/default.php?page=articledisplay&var1=ArtRead&var2=1035&var3=main&var4=Home | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 2779 Registered: 10-2004 |
Keri, Thanks for posting those quotes. Regarding homoousios, some SDAs will say that is the correct position, but they change the meaning of the term! You can click here and here, to see the deceptive comments on homoousios by John W. Reeve, Assistant Professor of Church History at the Seventh-day Adventist Theological Seminary at Andrews University and co-author of The Trinity. (I just created those URLs, so let me know if they don't "jump" correctly.) By the way, I was wondering what type of textbooks they use at the SDA seminary--are the textbooks written by Adventists? Jeremy | ||
| Ric_b Registered user Username: Ric_b Post Number: 715 Registered: 7-2004 |
jrt, you have made a very interesting point they talk about Augustine and "equal substance" so they "coined this new "equal substance" which is not the same as "same substance". This seems like a nitpicky little detail, but it is the difference between a Triune God and three gods. And it is a good example of what SDAism teaches, when it bothers to provide any specifics, about their doctrine of the Godhead. The first time that I heard someone here say that SDAism didn't teach the Trinity, I cringed. I was certain that this was simply an over-reaction to a few outliers in historical SDAism. But the more I discussed this subject with SDAs online, the more convinced I became that there is a serious problem. A problem that Evangelical Christianity should take a closer look at. | ||
| Ric_b Registered user Username: Ric_b Post Number: 716 Registered: 7-2004 |
Dennis, Thanks for the encouragement. There are days that my participation on CARM is a love-hate relationship. I began posting there in order to learn how to better explain my beliefs and answer real-life questions from SDAs. My time there has convinced me that SDA doctrine is even more heretical than I could have imagined when I originally left. |
