| Author | Message | ||
| Dennis Registered user Username: Dennis Post Number: 1622 Registered: 4-2000  |
Mary, Thank you for your comments. In my view, if one is researching Adventism in depth online, it would require going to their official website as well. It is a mark of scholarship to observe both sides of an issue. Truth has nothing to fear. I trust you are sufficiently unbiased to read some of the material at www.monergism.com in your quest for historical accuracy. I make no apology for the link that I provided. After all, some of my writings are linked there as well. Dennis Fischer | ||
| Helovesme2 Registered user Username: Helovesme2 Post Number: 1874 Registered: 8-2004  |
 Did you read all of my post? | ||
| Dennis Registered user Username: Dennis Post Number: 1623 Registered: 4-2000 |
Mary, I missed reading one of your posts. I am delighted that you are reading the Institutes. I know of several people who are reading them this year. Life is so short and so much to learn. Dennis Fischer | ||
| Helovesme2 Registered user Username: Helovesme2 Post Number: 1875 Registered: 8-2004 |
The rest of the first one also pointed out that going to Adventist sources to learn what Adventism teaches is good, it's just not all that needs to be done. That was my point about Calvin as well. Going to Calvinist sources (and to Calvin himself) is good. It's just not all there is to it. As you said, the Truth has nothing to fear. Truth, however, is a great iconoclast: blasting all our constructs and theologies and 'isms' out of the water. God is so much bigger than our neat systematic theologies. He calls us to hear Him, rest in Him, trust Him - and not clasp on to one or another human, no matter how good, as His definer. Blessings, Mary | ||
| Agapetos Registered user Username: Agapetos Post Number: 1785 Registered: 10-2002  |
Hi all, A couple quick comments, as I have to go back to work soon. ***** Dennis, Philip Yancey is not a pastor in Texas, but is the editor-at-large for Christianity Today magazine. He grew up in Georgia and spent considerable time in Chicago, and now lives in Colorado. ***** Gabriel, I didn't mention the Servetus incident at all and staked nothing of what I wrote on it. That incident in particular, I think, does reflect a lot of the "current" of the times. However, that doesn't excuse it, either. What it does reflect is an overall assumption that churches felt -- that the church had the moral duty (so to speak) to carry out commands given only to ancient Israel, such as executing someone for blasphemy, etc. That Calvin (and others) tried to intercede for Servetus shows some good progress against this current of the times, however, it still had a long way to go. Again, though, I did not raise Servetus at all in what I wrote, and I think what I wrote (particularly about the rules Calvin helped set--which would be enforced) still stands here, with or without Servetus. ***** Colleen, You wrote: "And sometimes these men of God receive the greatest blow to their legacy not from those whose views differ but from those who uphold them." How true! As a side-note, in general I agree that "Systems of theology cannot be proven 'wrong' or 'right' on the basis of the personal lives of their founders. The proof of the pudding is always in comparing systems with the Scriptures." I think this is generally true, but there is truth also to "you will know them by their fruits". To a degree the personal lives of founders (or in Calvin's case, not the personal lives but the fruit in the immediate society) are reflective of both the positive and the negative in the theology. This thread began with statements that wanted everything positive in Calvin's society attributed to his theology. Now that the negative has surfaced, it raises quick objections. But can we only claim a connection when the result is something positive, something praiseworthy we want to have come from the theology? What's called for in evaluation is a humble detachment not only from the negative, but also from the positive. We're quick to attribute everything positive to that which we agree with, and quick to cry foul when a negative is raised. Calvin system was not completely biblical or solid, and he had a long way to go in understanding "grace". He had a doctrine of grace, but did not live to see it grow into a complete outward expression or tangible force in society. The society was ruled by an almost theocratic law. Whatever Calvin uncovered about the truth of "grace", it was incomplete in that it did not dispense practical grace to people in society. This does not negate the positives of his beliefs by any means. But it means that we must be willing to recognize the bad as well as the good that springs from anyone's theology. Calvinism has often had a hole in the realm of being full of grace. This is common enough to have been noted in the Christianity Today article by a noted Reformed preacher when he said that they often argue the doctrines of grace with little grace (article: "Young, Restless, and Reformed" ... an article which looked at the renewed interest in Calvinism positively). ***** Must run. Bless you all in Jesus, the only praiseworthy One above all! Ramone | ||
| Dennis Registered user Username: Dennis Post Number: 1627 Registered: 4-2000 |
Ramone, I mistakenly had Philip Yancey confused with Max Lucado in San Antonio, Texas. Thanks for the correction. Dennis Fischer | ||
| Agapetos Registered user Username: Agapetos Post Number: 1788 Registered: 10-2002 |
No probelmo, Dennis. It's easy to confuse some of the bigger names, famous writers, etc. However, that said, Yancey's stuff isn't quite "devotional" material like Lucado's. Instead it's pretty deep, like taking a journey. Especially the book I mentioned, "What's So Amazing About Grace?" ...I wonder how it won so many awards and yet we still don't put so much of the grace it talks about into practice. It's rocked me so much, and I still fall short of really living out that grace of God. But my last name means "pilgrim" in Spanish, and I learn as I go. | ||
| Dennis Registered user Username: Dennis Post Number: 1640 Registered: 4-2000 |
"This is a good way to meet John Calvin." John Calvin is often reviled as a humorless doctrinarian who preached an austere theology that twisted Scripture. John Calvin: A heart for Devotion, Doctrine, & Doxology, is a book that seeks to set the record straight in honor of the 500th observance of John Calvin's birth in 1509. Edited by Tabletalk editor Burk Parsons, the book's twenty succinct chapters explore aspects of Calvin's life, ministry, teachings, and establish his importance even for the modern Christian. The contributors include some of the most gifted and godly Reformed leaders alive today. John Piper says of this new book: "To my knowledge, there never has been a collection of authors of any edited volume under whose ministry I would rather sit than these. What stands out is that they are humble, holy men of God. Most of them are too old--too seasoned--to care about scoring points. Their lives witness to the preciousness of Christ and the importance of purity. Expect no bombast. Expect humble, measured admiration and wise application. This is a good way to meet John Calvin; in the holy hearts of humble servants of Christ. The only better way would be to read the man himself." To order, call your favorite bookstore or simply dial: 800-435-4343. Dennis Fischer | ||
| Dennis Registered user Username: Dennis Post Number: 1678 Registered: 4-2000 |
Official Website for the Calvin Quincentenary (1509-2009) www.Calvin500.org | ||
| Hec Registered user Username: Hec Post Number: 170 Registered: 3-2009 |
Dennis says:
What do you mean by that? Hec | ||
| Dennis Registered user Username: Dennis Post Number: 1679 Registered: 4-2000 |
Hec, Adventists earnestly pray that somehow God should overrule the freewill decision of their loved ones who have left the "truth" according to their understanding. Hypothetically, let's examine the following scenario with Uncle Henry: Uncle Henry graduated with honors from an Adventist university. As a successful, highly-paid professional, Uncle Henry seemingly has a great life. He is highly respected in his community. He even took a minor in religion. He further claims to be very knowledgeable about the unorthodox teachings of open theism and/or the moral influence theory as taught by his alma mater. In spite of his knowing the 28 fundamental beliefs of Adventism backwards and forwards, he has recently decided to leave Adventism and become an agnostic like his secular friends. His Adventist friends and relatives are greatly disappointed and even in a state of shock. Obviously, Uncle Henry has freely made a decision to no longer be associated with the Seventh-day Adventist Church nor any other religious group. In light of this dilemma, his closest Adventist relative earnestly prays as follows: "Heavenly Father, as You are fully aware, Uncle Henry has exercised his God-given freewill and right to reject the "truth." Now Lord, just stand back and don't change his desires in any way. Just leave him alone. His endowed freewill is of utmost importance to me. He clearly and freely has decided not love and follow You. Most of all, dear Lord, I pray that You will not fix his choice on You. Please respect his independent and freewill choice by not intervening in his life in any manner. Thank you for hearing and answering my solemn, heartfelt prayer." I this the type of intercessory prayer that devout Adventists pray? Of course not! Far from it, indeed! There is, however, a clashing dichotomy between the reason why Adventists pray for others and what they claim to believe when not bowed in prayer. When not in a stance of petitioning prayer, Adventists are synergistic (not believing in faith alone, but rather wholeheartedly believing in partnership salvation whereby God actually helps them to save themselves). They do not want God to violate or change their personal freewill in any manner. Amazingly, the typical Adventist is devoutly Calvinistic (monergistic) when bowed in prayer, but he promptly returns to his semi-Pelagianist stance when his prayer time is over. Do Adventists sincerely want the lost to have their hearts become receptive through the direct intervention of the Holy Spirit, their ears unstopped, and their eyes opened to the Gospel as they understand it? Yes, they most decidedly do! Their cognitive dissonance is very apparent here. They are trying to believe in two opposing views at the same time. Furthermore, they are seemingly unaware of their conflicting belief system. The Bible repeatedly admonishes us to pray for others. It is in God's sovereign plan to have His people pray for others and to actively evangelize them. God delights in seeing our dependence upon Him through our intercessory prayers. It is only through Him that human hearts are changed and their ways amended. Indeed, salvation is from the Lord. Soli Deo Gloria! The fallen human will is morally-incapable of choose Christ. In his classic book, "Chosen by God," Dr. R. C. Sproul rightly states: "We conclude that fallen man is still free to choose what he desires, but because his desires are only wicked he lacks the moral ability to come to Christ. As long as he remains in the flesh, unregenerate, he will never choose Christ. He cannot choose Christ precisely because he cannot act against his own will. He has not desire for Christ. He cannot choose what he does not desire. His fall is great. It is so great that only the effectual grace of God working in his heart can bring him to faith" (page 75). The prince of preachers, Charles Spurgeon, declared, "Freewill carried many a soul to hell, but never a soul to heaven." Similarly, the great reformer, Martin Luther, stated: "If any man doth acribe of salvation, even the very least, to the free will of man, he knoweth nothing of grace, and he hath not learnt Jesus Christ aright." Let us not grow weary in fervently praying for the "Uncle Henry" in our families that God will touch his life with the empowering, liberating, and transforming grace of God. Surprisingly, Seventh-day Adventists are monergists (Calvinists) when they pray and synergists when not in prayer. When hard-pressed for an answer, our Adventist friends will reluctantly admit that their prayers for others are indeed asking God to intervene directly and to override the fallen human will. Dennis Fischer (Message edited by Dennis on May 17, 2009) (Message edited by Dennis on May 17, 2009) (Message edited by Dennis on May 17, 2009) | ||
| Doc Registered user Username: Doc Post Number: 386 Registered: 2-2003  |
Interesting thread. I guess I would agree that our heroes can often turn out to be less than perfect when all the facts are in. Apart from Jesus, of course. I am glad my salvation rests in him, and not in any great historical figure, no matter what contribution he may have made. And not even in a specific theology either, salvation is in Christ. Dennis, On your comment about the gay students thinking differently if they had a Calvinist approach. I tend to doubt it. In my experience, if someone really wants to justify their "inappropriate" (shall we say?) behaviour, then they can find some excuse, no matter what theology they may have. It's just human nature. Anyway, if they really believed Adventism, how could they think they would get through the Investigative Judgement? On the other hand, surely, "It isn't really sin, the Bible is translated wrong" would do the trick for any system? You mentioned Universalism. I am sure sure what you meant there. I have never been Adventist, but I have read the GC, and I certainly did not get the impression that EGW was a Universalist. So where does that come in? Adrian | ||
| Doc Registered user Username: Doc Post Number: 387 Registered: 2-2003 |
I meant, I am NOT sure... | ||
| Hec Registered user Username: Hec Post Number: 176 Registered: 3-2009 |
Got it, Dennis. Thanks. Hec | ||
| Dennis Registered user Username: Dennis Post Number: 1682 Registered: 4-2000 |
Doc, Everyone has a system of belief whether they realize it or not. Even an atheist has a system of belief. The fact that so-called theological "heroes" or giants of the Christian faith are imperfect really endorses, verifies, and authenticates their belief system (see Rom.3:12,23). After all, who would want a David living next door? Moses was a murderer (often exhibiting a hot temper). Scary! Human beings are exceptionally easy to criticize. The real truth is that we are all at the mercy of God--no exceptions. Yes, I know that most Christians believe that God is ultimately at their mercy and that they are the captains of their eternal destiny. Calvinism teaches that salvation is complete for some rather than partial for all. Dennis Fischer | ||
| Dennis Registered user Username: Dennis Post Number: 1683 Registered: 4-2000 |
Doc, Adventists and many others believe that they have a "tiny island of righteousness." Thus, they teach that God calls everybody. They admit being merely "sick" in trespasses and sins or "slightly dead" at worst. Dennis Fischer | ||
| Helovesme2 Registered user Username: Helovesme2 Post Number: 2009 Registered: 8-2004 |
Everybody has beliefs I'll grant. Just how systematic they are varies WIDELY!! (Message edited by helovesme2 on May 18, 2009) | ||
| Dennis Registered user Username: Dennis Post Number: 1684 Registered: 4-2000 |
Mary, They are all systematic enough to cover their own belief system. Different beliefs require a variety of defenses. As Dr. Wayne Grudem rightly concludes: "The study of theology is not merely a theoretical exercise of the intellect. It is a study of the living God, and of the wonders of all his works in creation and redemption. We cannot study this subject dispassionately! We must love all that God is, all that he says, and all that he does." (Systematic Theology: An Introduction to Biblical Doctrine, page 37) Dennis Fischer (Message edited by Dennis on May 18, 2009) | ||
| Doc Registered user Username: Doc Post Number: 388 Registered: 2-2003 |
Hey Dennis, That we are all at the mercy of God, I truly and fully endorse. I'm not sure what you mean by the "island of righteousness." But then, please realise, that as a never-been SDA and also a never-been Calvinist, I may not be aware of what you mean. And if anyone believe that God is at their mercy, they are definitely deluding themselves. Studying the living God is certainly exciting! My question was, are Adventists Universalists? As far as I am aware, they are not. So if not, where does this come into the picture? Why mention it at all, if it is not an actual, practical problem? Sorry if I was not clear, Adrian | ||
| Dennis Registered user Username: Dennis Post Number: 1685 Registered: 4-2000 |
Adrian, The so-called "tiny island of righteousness" is a semi-Pelagian and Arminian view. This means that since man is not completely or totally depraved, he has the last word in his salvation. God is completely at his mercy. They insist that God helps them to save themselves. One Adventist told me that was correct, but he wouldn't say it that way (smile). In other words, it is a partnership salvation or commonly termed as "cooperative grace." It's all about man being the captain of his eternal destiny. Yes, Adventists believe that God calls everybody. They make no distinction between common and saving grace. Since man is not totally depraved in their view, they reason that their "tiny island of righteousness" will save them or has the ability to do so if desired. God is totally at the mercy of their fallen will that cannot and does not desire Christ. Ultimately, Arminianism leads to universalism. In the case of Adventism, they insist that the fallen human will prohibits salvation to all. Salvation is ultimately man-centered. Moreover, they are planning to put God on trial and to vindicate Him before the universe. Consequently, our great and awesome God is not really sovereign and must submit to man for vindication. Unless God cooperates fully with man, the divine resuce mission fails. Thus, the spotlight is put upon man at that time in history and not upon Jesus. The Creator is just very lucky that his creatures will finally vindicate His name and approve His rescue plan. What blasphemy! So, those who accept the gospel invitation are somehow smarter or more lucky than others, the Holy Spirit was partial in prompting them more, they save God from utter embarrassment for Calvary if nobody else decides to accept the sacrifice of Jesus, keeps God from failing in His rescue mission, assists a gambling, disoriented God whose salvific mission was not predestined, makes them better and more important than others, etc. Actually, most Christians believe the same way today. It is the difference between a man-centered theology versus a God-centered theology (forget the labels). Either view reveals who is in charge and who wears the crown. However, the Bible teaches that salvation is from the Lord alone. Soli Deo Gloria! In His power and for His glory, Dennis Fischer |
