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| Mommyk Registered user Username: Mommyk Post Number: 276 Registered: 4-2007  |
Thought this was interesting and wanted to pass it along. When you were an Adventist, which group were you in? An excellent description of the major theological groupings of Seventh-day Adventists by NightEternal (http://christianforums.com/member.php?u=185580) LIBERAL ADVENTISTS: This group is mostly centralized in southern California, but they can be found almost anywhere in the world. These are Adventists who have accepted the liberal Christian concepts where just about anything goes. Do not hold to literal interpretations of Scripture from Genesis through the Gospels as well as the remainder of the New Testament. Scripture is regarded as a collection of myths or stories and historical exaggerations used to teach moral lessons. Some may hold other Gnostic ancient books as on the same level of importance as the Bible. They do not believe in the literal creation account, world-wide flood, or miracles, including the resurrection of Jesus. Many have accepted evolution in some form into their belief systems. Beliefs can range from no after-life to Universalism. Homosexuality is accepted as another lifestyle alternative and impulse that God created people with. Ellen White means nothing to them and they have all but discarded most of the distinctive fundamentals as well as orthodox Christian fundamentals. They are often ‘cultural’ Adventists who still enjoy the oppourtunity to discuss with others philosophical ideas concerning the Sabbath. They may enjoy church services of various kinds or none at all, from high church to celebrationn services. Will often call themselves Christian Agnostics or Agnostic Christians. In fact, the only SDA feature many liberal Adventists have retained is the Sabbath. Almost all attend movies of any sort, wear jewelry, eat meat, drink coffee and caffeinated pops, some partake of unclean foods, many drink alcoholic wine, especially in the areas of California where vineyards are found. Women’s ordination has never been a question and the SCC implemented it years ago against the official stand of the conference. Key Adventist Figures: Steve Daily PROGRESSIVE ADVENTISTS: Highly regard science, logic, reason and the historical-critical method. Will adopt any modern means of Biblical interpretation available. Want to do away with many of the fundamentals, especially the Investigative Judgement/1844/Heavenly sanctuary doctrines. Believe Ellen White is a woman of her times whose works may contain inspirational material that may be used in a pastoral way. Do not believe she has doctrinal authourity. Some hold to a literal creation account, world-wide flood and miracles. Others see the Genesis story as non-literal and consider other methods of creation possible. The post-modern movement can also be traced to this group. In understanding post-modern philosophy, they desire to have the church be relevant in the present time and do not regard the history and legacy of the Adventist pioneers as the embodiment of religious truth. Some have adopted the views of the moral influence/larger view Adventists and rejected penal, legal atonemt. Others hold to such atonement theories as Christus Victor, Federal Head and Recapitulation. There may be an amalgam of several atonement theories. A credo would probably be reason over tradition. Spreading like wildfire in many European countries. Key Adventist Figures: Riendeer Bruinsma, Alden Thompson, Richard Rice, Fritz Guy, John McLarty (Adventist Today), Spectrum Magazine MORAL INFLUENCE/LARGER VIEW ADVENTISTS: Also found mostly in Southern California/Loma Linda area, this group denies that God will destroy the wicked in the end. They believe that sin itself will consume them without any intervention on God’s part. Absolutely deny legal/forensic/penal atonement. Heavy emphasis on the love and mercy of Christ to the exclusion of His anger and justice. Revere Ellen White, but they only pick and choose that which reflects thier unique views. Heavily influenced by the views of Peter Abelard. You can find many of them on the website Heavenly Sanctuary. Key Figures: Graham Maxwell (Pine Knoll), Dan Smith, Ty Gibson (Light Bearers), Michael Klute. EVANGELICAL ADVENTISTS: Champions of Reformation justification by faith and the closest segment to the positions of Luther and the reformers. Bitterly fight against sinless perfection/final generation theology and the belief in the sinful nature of Christ. Consider both full-blown heresy. The most user-friendly Adventism and the one subgroup that presents the most acceptable Adventist face to mainline Protestantism. Believe the atonement was completed at the cross. Stand firmly behind Questions On Doctrine as representative of balanced Adventist thought. Have realistic views of inspiration and completely reject verbal inspiration for both the Bible and Ellen White. Ardent holders to thought inspiration. Ellen White highly regarded, but do not believe she has doctrinal authourity and believe she is subject to the New Testament apostles. Some Evangelical Adventists have abandoned EGW, but not all. Completely reject traditional understanding of the Investigative Judgement as detrimental to assurance of salvation. Hold to pre-Advent judgment where the salvation of God’s people is not under question. Very firm and uncompromising in their opposition to Rome. Worship services are predominately contemporary with CCM as well as heavily influenced by Willow Creek seeker-services. Key Figures: George Knight, Graeme Bradford, Hans LaRondelle, H.M.S. Richards Sr. (Voice Of Prophecy), Raymond Cottrell, Desmond Ford (Good News Unlimited), Edward Heppenstall, Frank Phillips MODERATE ADVENTISTS: The largest subgroup by far, this constitutes the majority in the pews. Standard Adventist beliefs, hold to the fundamentals. Avoids either extreme and and tries to be balanced. High regard for Ellen white but do not hold to verbal inspiration nor elevate her above the Bible. Mainline believers who support official church mission ardently. Stay very close to offical GC policy, mandate and standard Adventist worldview. Key Figures: Mark Finley, Dwight Nelson, Keavin Hayden, Marvin Moore, Roy Adams, Ed Christian, Morris Venden, Jack Sequeira (Vineyard Ministries), Shawn Boonstra (It Is Written), Steven Mosley, Steve Wohlberg, Lonnie Melashenko (Voice Of Prophecy), George Vandeman (Voice Of Prophecy) CONSERVATIVE/TRADITIONAL ADVENTISTS: Close to moderate Adventists, but with a little more lean to the right. Bitterly oppose women’s ordination, CCM, meat-eating, justification by faith as taught by Luther. Very high regard for Ellen White, borderline verbal inspirationists. Revere the law and the Ten Commandments and have sinless perfection tendencies. Many are heavily involved in Jesuit/Catholic/Masonic conspiracy theories. Staunch defenders of the 28 fundamentals and lovers of pioneer, 1800’s style Adventism. Major representation in third world countries such as Africa and South America. Key Figures: William Johnsson, Cifford Goldstein, Doug Batchelor (Amazing Facts), Sam Bacchiocchi (Biblical Perspectives), Sam Koranteng Pipim, Herbert Douglass, Ed Reid, Kenneth Cox, Richard O’Ffill (Revival Sermons), Danny Shelton (3 ABN), Walter Veith (Amazing Discoveries), Jan Marcussen, David Asscherick, Leo Schriven, Bill Tucker (The Quiet Hour), Robert Weiland and Donald Short (The 1888 Message Committee), C.D. Brooks ULTRA-CONSERVATIVE/TRADITIONAL ADVENTISTS: Historical Adventists who represent the far right. Believe in the sinful nature of Christ, righteousness by works, have a hatred for the Reformation gospel. Sinless perfectionists who believe Christ merely set the example we can follow until we reach the condition of Adam before the fall-all before glorification, which they believe only changes the physical and nothing else. Bitterly oppose Questions On Doctrine, consider it the most hated book ever published in Adventism. Heavy emphasis on I.J., traditional style and making oneself worthy to pass inspection by Jesus. Strict diet reform emphasis, all are vegetarian, most are vegan. Borderline deificaiton of Ellen White, verbal inspirationist leanings. Most regard EGW as equal to the Bible in authourity and the final say in all matters not addressed in Scripture. Many can be found on such websites as Revival Sermons, Great Controversy, Adventist Affirm, SDA Defend, Temcat’s House Key Figures: M.L. Andreason, Kevin Paulson, Larry Kirkpatrick, Joe Crews, Vance farrell, Dennis Priebe, Stephen Lewis EXTREMIST ULTRA-CONSERVATIVE TRADITIONAL ADVENTISTS/FFSHOOTS/INDEPENDENT MINISTRIES: About as far right you can go in Adventism. The most disturbing, frightening Adventism available. Ultra-strict, unyeilding dress reform, diet reform, mind reform, any reform you can think of. Hyper-vegan, believe diet is a salvation issue and meat-eaters are lost. Heavy, extreme emphasis on historic Adventism and the pioneers. Agenda to purify the Adventist church and get back to 1800 style Adventism. Shepherd’s Rod believe they will be the instruments of destruction God will use to cleanse the camp of modern-day Adventism at some point in the future. Have their own communes, schools, churches, camp meetings, etc. Deify Ellen White, all but have included her in the Biblical canon. Fringe groups who believe that only a literal 144,000 are going through to the end. Hatred for corporate Adventism and conference structure. Believe the GC is the seat of the beast, riddled with Jesuit infiltrators. Hatred for any modern expressions of Adventism, believe they are the only true Adventists and the rest are lost. All believe the mainline church is in apostasy and is fallen Babylon, and so a call for as many as possible to come out is needed. Many use cultish fear-tactics and brainwashing to recruit and retain thier followers. Key Groups/Figures: Shepherd’s Rod (Victor Houteff), Branch Davidians, SDA Reform, Remnant Of The Remnant, Our Firm Foundation/Hope International (Ralph Larson), Hartland Institute (Colin and Russell Standish) | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 9817 Registered: 12-2003  |
How interesting, Kristin! These are great descriptions! What these descriptions fail to note, however, is the common threads that fundamentally unite them all, even though they bitterly disagree with each other: 1) They all believe in "soul sleep"—that the human spirit is "breath" or the "life force" that returns to God while the body decays. Relatedly, they all deny eternal hell. 2) They all believe the Sabbath is somehow eternally significant, even though some of them might deny it's "salvational". Nevertheless, all would feel they would risk their salvation to give it up. 3) They all hold Ellen in some sort of esteem. They may not all believe she's a prophet or that her works continue to have authority for them, but they would still defend her historical position as a pillar of the SDA church—and, even if they do not recognize it, they all live in a "great controversy paradigm" because of her. 4) They all see the Bible as NOT inerrant. Some believe it is more authoritative than others, but they all would say it is NOT inerrant. They might say it is "infallible"--that is, that it contains all you need to know for salvation—but they would insist it was written according to the writer's understanding of God's thought inspiration. They would deny God oversaw the words. These common ties hold all brands of Adventists in the organization because these things create the framework of their unique "different gospel" and establishes a relativistic paradigm that ultimately denies absolute truth. The role of Jesus is "negotiable", and the Trinity is not sovereign over all men, nations, and human events. Colleen | ||
| Mommamayi Registered user Username: Mommamayi Post Number: 803 Registered: 12-2007  |
That was very interesting Kirsten. Way to tie it all together Colleen! I would say we were Moderate before we left, and I was raised Conservative/Traditional. Funny that my dad sent me a book by Joe Crews (Ultra Conservative) when trying to draw us back into Adventism. | ||
| Bb Registered user Username: Bb Post Number: 410 Registered: 7-2004 |
That is great! Especially knowing the key figures. Helps when you have a discussion with an sda so you can understand where they are starting from. My mom is definitely traditional, loves Reid, Batchelor and Goldstein, although she agreed with me that he talks way above most people, and makes it hard to understand. | ||
| Martin Registered user Username: Martin Post Number: 58 Registered: 11-2008 |
I saw Clifford Goldstein in a meeting that had been organised by the North England Conference of the SDA church, about 1 year ago I guess... It was a rather conservative conference, let's say, and I felt not completely comfortable. I remember that back then I agreed somewhat more with the Progressive Adventists... Although now I can see that it was just a short lived phase in my process of leaving adventism. Some months after, I thought about all that and it seemed pretty silly compared with what I had just seen outside the realm of Adventism. Anyway, I was there only on the Saturday and heard Goldstein telling his "conversion" story. He spoke for about one hour, and it seemed pretty interesting to me then. There was also a questions session with several scholars and pastors, and he seemed pretty harsh to me. Didn't agree with him, but seemed like peculiar character in several aspects. In overall there was something in his way of speaking or ideas that I didn't get to like too much. In any case, the irony is that in all that time he was the only one who openly answered a doubt I had: for years I was wondering what should I do if I found points in the SDA doctrines that I didn't agree with. I asked many adventist people but none gave me a direct answer... In general, all were sort of dubitative, compromising, indirect ideas. Something like "who determines what is it to be an Adventist" or "what points do you have to believe to be an Adventist". Not sure if I'm clear enough in this point. Anyway, in some articles Mr Goldstein wrote and in that questions session he openly spoke about that: "if you don't believe in such and such, you should leave. There is no space for you in the adventist church. We don't want you here". For example, this article about Seventh Day Darwinians, as he called them: http://www.adventistreview.org/2003-1530/story4.html Not talking now and here about the topic of the article, but that was also his general tone while speaking about some of the beliefs during that session. I particularly "like" this quote from the article: "As long as you stick to the Bible (and Ellen White's books and articles) you will not go wrong" :D Anyway, I digress... Thing is, he was the only one I ever heard, inside the SDA church, telling people to leave if they didn't agree in their particular ways. And I'm surprised that in the end that's what I did. That day he sounded too harsh and polemic to me... Today, at least I agree with him in that point and so glad about it. How things may change in such a short time!!! God is good. | ||
| Seekinglight Registered user Username: Seekinglight Post Number: 142 Registered: 3-2009 |
Clifford has a harsh personality. I struggled thru his book: "Graffiti in the Holy of Holies" when I was studying the IJ doctrine. I don't want to judge him and I hope he really knows Jesus! However, his book seemed to be an abundance of cold, judgemental intellectualization. Perhaps it's unfair of me to judge his book by this, but that's sort of what I did. I know I cannot always trust my feelings, and I try to focus on the content alone. Nonetheless, I sense a warmth in Dale's books that I do not find in Goldstein's. (Message edited by seekinglight on May 14, 2009) | ||
| Esther Registered user Username: Esther Post Number: 484 Registered: 5-2004 |
I agree. I remember reading Goldstein and thinking that he was the only one who was honest about being SDA. Everyone else seems so desperate to make sure no one ever walks out that door...but Goldstein is at least willing to say..."well...if you don't belong"  | ||
| Seekinglight Registered user Username: Seekinglight Post Number: 143 Registered: 3-2009 |
"If you don't belong, don't let the door hit your backside too hard on the way out!" LOL! Yeah, at least he's honest.  | ||
| Cloudwatcher Registered user Username: Cloudwatcher Post Number: 6 Registered: 5-2009 |
A few months ago I tried to read Goldstein's Graffiti book and honestly, i have an easier time trying to figure out what the graffiti says on the streets of LA. He IS the author of confusion! Sheesh! I truly cannot follow his train of thought or go with him on his rabbit chases. I don't know if he's writing like this on purpose, if he doesn't have a competent editor, or WHAT! But I was really frustrated...which is fine. I just wanted to see what his rebuttal to Dale's book was going to be... I ended up not caring. I love the breakdown of the types of SDAs. My husband and I have been categorizing our friends. It helps to understand the different types so that when you're talking to a "type" you can make your case effectively and not say something that will make them automatically tune you out. (ex: "SDAs put EGW writings above the Bible"..."well, I don't do that... I don't agree with that." End of productive conversation.) For what it's worth, I think there's a category that's missing... CULTURAL/COMFORT ZONE ADVENTISTS -- they're born and bred; they like the social aspects of the group and don't really care about or think about the theological issues. They love the Sabbath (and make sure to put that on their Facebook status every week). They don't really have a strong opinion about most things and they like it that way. Adventism is comfortable and it's working for them. | ||
| Gcfrankie Registered user Username: Gcfrankie Post Number: 432 Registered: 1-2007 |
Cloudwatcher, I like your category of cultural/comfort zone adventists discription. They read egws writings but really do not pick the bible (except to take it to church for show) and read it. When I was an sda and asked a question I would get the answer 'what does egw say' which meant to me that the bible was not to be accounted for any answer only her. Gail | ||
| Mommyk Registered user Username: Mommyk Post Number: 277 Registered: 4-2007 |
Ha ha...I like your description, too, Cloudwatcher. The denomination is so divided against itself, it's so frustrating! And it's pretty ridiculous that ONE denomination can be so different depending on geography! *sigh* ~Kristen | ||
| Reb Registered user Username: Reb Post Number: 794 Registered: 5-2007 |
Good post, Kristen. Seems accurate to me. I would agree about the Liberal Adventists being in Southern Calfornia, at least in the non "ethnic" churches. But my expreience was mostly in Indonesian and Filipino immigrant SDA churches in SoCal, and they are anything but liberal(very conservative and traditional). Good to be back on here! I haven't posted for a while, been really busy with work and school. | ||
| Reb Registered user Username: Reb Post Number: 795 Registered: 5-2007 |
Good post, Kristen. Seems accurate to me. I would agree about the Liberal Adventists being in Southern Calfornia, at least in the non "ethnic" churches. But my expreience was mostly in Indonesian and Filipino immigrant SDA churches in SoCal, and they are anything but liberal(very conservative and traditional). Good to be back on here! I haven't posted for a while, been really busy with work and school. |
