| Author | Message | ||
| Cathy2 Registered user Username: Cathy2 Post Number: 346 Registered: 2-2006 |
I agree Diana; unforgiveness is a corosive burden. You always have good, practical advice. Thank you for all you have given over the years. Going to ignore a sister's hurtful denial now and send a Mother's Day e-card... Caught on my own petard  Cathy2 | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 4733 Registered: 9-2006  |
The other day I saw a womans house here in the park, the grass is a foot high, the porch was a literal mess and I went back to the office and checked her records, I found numerous request to clean up and mow. I took and inspection sheet and went back to her house and by that time I was angry, I knocked loudly and she came to the door, I told her her place was a mess and I was giving her 15 days to clean it up. Technically I was in the right, spiritually I was in the wrong and when I got back to the office I told my wife that next time I would fill out the inspection report and leave it, not go to their door in an angry mood. I was weak and there's no telling how much ground I lost in that moment of weakness when I went without prayer to her house. I went to her in the wrong Spirit and I cannot afford that, the price is too steep. I am determined to go and apologize to that woman, if she is not there I will leave a note. We cannot afford to be lazy or neglectful. I say that knowing I am many times lazy and neglectful, I struggle with weakness, inability,and a host of other things. But I know I can't afford it for the price of it is way to steep. River | ||
| Jrt Registered user Username: Jrt Post Number: 394 Registered: 10-2008 |
River & Dianne, Thank you for sharing ... With the comments above I realize I need to forgive my boss. Even now my stomach is in knots thinking about it. Thank you for sharing and being vulnerable - it helps me when I am weak-kneed and in need of Holy Spirit power. Keri | ||
| Seekinglight Registered user Username: Seekinglight Post Number: 122 Registered: 3-2009 |
Thank you for your responses, everyone. I'm struggling with this question of what a pastor or concerned members of the body of Christ are supposed to say to the "lazy" Christians. I used to think that once people truly understand the assurance of salvation and the Gospel that they will grow b/c the H.S. would be doing His work. However, lazy born-again people make me wonder what the missing component is. I'm reading a book now by the only SDA author whom I trust--besides Carol Cannon. It's a book by Clarence Schilt and his brother called "A Life to Die For". Here's the website for more info: http://www.alifetodiefor.com/ Clarence discusses the idea that each day of our lives, we have to make a conscious choice to surrender everything to God--our ideas, rights, plans, rationalizations, etc. Cathy2, many psychologists do believe that changing your thoughts will change behavior, but I must admit that I'm powerless over my thoughts at times. In fact, the more I try NOT to think about something, that is a guarantee that I will think about it even more. I tell my students NOT to think about pink dancing elephants during a class period. Every time they think about it, they are to mark on a piece of scratch paper. Inevitably, they think about pink dancing elephants all thru class. The more we try, the more we fail! I tell students that pastors and well-meaning folks who tell you to just STOP thinking bad thoughts are perhaps using the wrong approach. The only way I've found to successfully deal with sinful thoughts/feelings is to behold Jesus--it's as "simple" as that! This is a step we can take to die to self and rise with Christ. Asurprise, I like what you said about when you're feeling lukewarm, you ask God to give you love for Him. That is true submission and dying to self--amazing! Clarence discusses all these ideas more fully in the book, and so far, it's been a blessing to my heart. It's very nice to see one SDA who seems to "get it". Another great book on this topic is Arbinger Institute's book called "Anatomy of Peace" Although it is not exclusively written from a Christian perspective, it really cuts to the heart of what is wrong with humanity. It comes short in saying how we can truly be transformed by Christ, but it is insightful nonetheless. | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 4735 Registered: 9-2006 |
Easy River, just don't say it. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 9781 Registered: 12-2003  |
I used to know Clarence Schilt--he even asked me to work for him in the early 80s and help him with his research. I had a lot of respect for him. In the mid-90's he let us run an article by him in Adventist Today about small groups--their benefits, drawbacks, and dynamics. He was considered the "small group guru" among Adventists, and this article came near the end of a number of years of advocating and working with small groups. It was interesting...he had changed his "tune" and concluded that small groups had limitations which he thought were not likely solvable. Even then, Richard and I were in the process of studying our way out of Adventism, and as I edited and worked with his article, I was deeply disturbed because I knew that the problems he addressed re: small groups were problems that would not be present in long-term groups of active born-again Christ-followers who were living in submission to the Lord Jesus. I haven't communicated with Schilt in the past 12 or so years, so I have no recent personal knowledge of him. I know that, as Adventists go, he knows the concepts of the gospel better than many. Bottom line--he is still Adventist, for whatever reason. As Paul Carden said on the panel at FAF weekend, he doesn't know how a person who, once they know the true theological problems of Adventism and are committed to Jesus, can continue to support/endorse an organization they know to be false. (He was not referring to people who are inside and in the process of transition but to those who know but decide to remain for personal reasons.) I don't know "where" Schilt is in his thoughts about Adventism, but I know that I do not, at this point, tend to "trust" material published by Adventists as much as I trust material published by those whose lives endorse biblical truth. This is not to say, Seekinglight, that Schilt's book is "worthless" and cannot do any good. Of course it can, and God can use it, as He has for you, in the hearts of those who honestly seek Him. But in general, where there is personal compromise with Adventism, I know there is blurring of integrity or truth at some level. Again, I'm not in a position to make a judgment about Schilt. I'm just sayin'... Colleen | ||
| Seekinglight Registered user Username: Seekinglight Post Number: 123 Registered: 3-2009 |
Yeah, I don't agree with everything Clarence says in the book (b/c he has an EGW interpretation of scripture, which I'm noticing now, isn't that awesome?). He mentions how Jesus left us an example of submitting to His Father instead of relying on His divine attributes....and so on... But, overall, I trust the H.S. to protect my heart and I will not be a slave to fear of being deceived. Spent far too many years in fear as an SDA. The whole book's theme is about daily dying to self by focusing on Christ. I can't go wrong by focusing on Him and practicing surrender on an ongoing basis. | ||
| Snowboardingmom Registered user Username: Snowboardingmom Post Number: 535 Registered: 11-2005 |
Hi Seekinglight, Clarence Schilt was my pastor at Calimesa SDA church. He was best friends with my Academy Bible teacher, and that's how I came to personally know him. I really liked him a lot. He was warm, friendly, and had a genuine heart of love. But, I do know that he's a pretty conservative traditional Adventist. Because of that, while his book may be very good, there may be a very subtle underlying message that sounds okay on the surface, but may be "work based" in reality. As an example... Since you mentioned the "beholding Jesus", I'll use that as my example. This past week I was working on the Sabbath School lesson commentary for the week on "grace". On Wednesday's lesson, May 13, the lesson discussed this very concept of "beholding Jesus we become changed". The author quoted from the Desire of Ages, and then put out a challenge to contemplate calvary. At initial glance, it sounded right because I had always heard "by beholding we become changed". Yet, at the same time it "felt" wrong to me. I was left wondering, "How exactly are we to behold Jesus?" and "What change happens?" The Ellen White Notes that go along with the lesson quote several passages that show specifically we are to "behold" the character of Jesus. No where in the lesson or in the Ellen White quotes, is there a message about being born again. The truth is, the only way we are even capable of living godly lives, and having real change is to be born again. Only through submitting ourselves to the Spirit who lives in us are we able to overcome flesh. It is the Spirit alone that causes the deep change in us. Not focus or even good intentions. Also, as Adventists growing up, we always heard that Jesus is our example. But He is not our example, but our substitute. The underlying message is so subtle, and because it feels and sounds familiar, it doesn't always pop up in our heads as "works based faith". Here's the interesting part. After doing the commentary, I was sitting there contemplating the phrase "beholding Jesus we become changed". I had always thought this verse was in the Bible. It's not. It's a total Ellenism. I was shocked. In fact, when I googled it, the entire first page of results were all Adventist websites. It was a real eye opener for me into that phrase. The verse in the Bible that refers to any beholding is 2 Corinthians 3:18, "But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as by the Spirit of the Lord." It's not at all the same as "by beholding Jesus we become changed". Especially if you read the entire chapter (the verses before) you will find the message is very different. Anyway, it was something I just recently learned so thought I'd share since you had brought it up. Grace | ||
| Snowboardingmom Registered user Username: Snowboardingmom Post Number: 536 Registered: 11-2005 |
Oops, Seekinglight--I missed your recent post (I took too long to write mine--I'm at work and have to do it between tasks!) Sorry about that... | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 2727 Registered: 10-2004  |
Grace, I was also shocked when I learned, only about a year ago probably, that the phrase "by beholding we become changed" (which was used both positively and negatively) is an EGW/SDA phrase and is not in the Bible! I had no idea! Jeremy (Message edited by Jeremy on May 07, 2009) | ||
| Jrt Registered user Username: Jrt Post Number: 397 Registered: 10-2008 |
Oh, my . . . I'm afraid I may say the wrong thing here ... I went to the website for "How to die right" ... and I felt a tinge of discomfort, a cognitive dissonance, something unclear and uncomfortable ... How do I articulate this - never having read the book by Schilt? I feel disingenuous as I write this ... forgive me! (because I truly dislike it when people criticize something they haven't entirely looked into) ... Forgive me, but I do desire to give my two cents worth .. The blurb about the book says on the website: A couple of years ago Dianna and Clarence stumbled onto some practical tools that have transformed their lives. On the DVD series This idea of trading places with Christ ... right there I feel a bit uncomfortable - but again, I don't know exactly what they are talking about. But if I take that phrase at face value ... I can never trade places with Christ ... He is God. How do I die to self? I can't ... it is impossible for me? Look at the rich young ruler and the WHOLE story ... This is the dialogue after the usual homily on it is hard for 'rich' people to give up their wealth... When the disciples heard this, they were greatly astonished and asked, "Who then can be saved?" Jesus looked at them and said, 'With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.'" (Matt. 19:25,26) Our dying to self is even Holy Spirit driven ... I feel very uncomfortable with a formula for dealing with besetting sins or sinful thoughts or ... The reason is that we begin to focus on the "formula" rather than on an "organic", "living" fellowship with Jesus - who directs and leads us. Yes, I hear Schilt saying this - referring to a relationship - but he seems to imply that it is ME holding on to God. As I understand scripture it is God holding on to me ... OK, OK, OK, ... I just took the time to listen to his blurb video .... all good until 15 minutes in to his talk ... I'm listening to clip 1 on this web site: http://www.alifetodiefor.com/dvd OH, MY!!!, ... Schilt says and I quote (He is using Phil. 2:6-9),
Schilt then says, and I quote, "Jesus had the challenge of staying dead to His divine nature." Seekinglight! Do you see what is happening! He pulls you along with all the "right" sounding words and then he gives such awful God - denying words. It is like EGW. Sorry, to be so blunt. Jesus never let go of His divine nature on earth. That is not what Phil 2:6-8 says at all. The text doesn't say He set aside His Godness. Rather, Jesus also took on the nature of man. Jesus was 100% God and 100% man on earth. This is why Jesus could not have sinned and cannot be our example. Jesus is fully God, always, has been, always will be (Here are some texts; John 1:1-3; John 17:5; especially 1 John 1:2; John 8:58 (Jesus tells them He is God - while speaking on earth); John 17:5; 1 Cor. 8:6; John 5:26; 1 John 5:20. Seekinglight, I'm so sorry, to be so direct ... but this man sounds good, but there is some deep wrong in what he is teaching. And it verges on the sly deception of EGW. I hate saying this ... man, it kills me ... but I love you too much not to say it ... He mixes truth with error ... and I don't trust his tools when he tells me Jesus gave up His divinity to come to earth. That is SDA teaching - not the Bible. Look at John 2:19-22: 19Jesus answered them, "Destroy this temple, and I will raise it again in three days." Jesus raised Himself from the dead. Only His divinity could do that. When Jesus raised Lazarus - it was through His own divinity. Notice what Jesus says in John 11:25, "I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in me will live, even though he dies." Jesus claims, while living as a man on earth, to be "life" and "resurrection". Only someone fully God could claim that. Schilt says, Jesus gave that (His divinity) up to come to earth. I believe this is why it takes us died in the wool SDA's at the very least 2 years to become fully grounded in a Biblical worldview. I'm still struggling with comments in non-SDA circles ... it bugs me to no end!! ... but the only way I get grounded is by rubbing shoulders and willing to sound "foolish" and ask questions of those that are not SDA. I always have some cognitive dissonance when going to "Sunday" Christian functions ... and I'm not saying take what people say that are non-SDA's comments as "right". We have to take all things to God and ask the Holy Spirit to reveal truth to us. He will - I'm banking on it! Anyways, know I love you seekinglight ... Keri | ||
| Jrt Registered user Username: Jrt Post Number: 398 Registered: 10-2008 |
Oops, Me, too, I took a long time to post and you all jumped in including seekinglight. Forgive me, Keri P.S. Seekinglight, you are right to trust the Holy Spirit to hold you close to truth | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 2728 Registered: 10-2004 |
Keri, Incredible! Actually, though, those quotes from Schilt are simply what Adventism teaches, they are just more shockingly worded. Even the blasphemous teaching about us "taking Christ's place" I have found elsewhere in Adventism. Here is a quote from SDA scholar Norman Gulley:
And according to SDA teaching, "Jesus" did cease to exist on the cross, so he did "perish forever"--the "current" "Jesus" would have to simply be a re-creation by "God" (a completely new "Jesus" who is a created being who is only 2,000 years old!). Jeremy (Message edited by Jeremy on May 07, 2009) | ||
| Seekinglight Registered user Username: Seekinglight Post Number: 126 Registered: 3-2009 |
I think what he means by "trading places with Christ" is giving Him the controls of your life and letting go of them yourself. Guess I gotta be careful what I post on here. I think I gave you guys a heart attack :P Perhaps this sound proposterous, but I'm not afraid of being deceived. | ||
| Seekinglight Registered user Username: Seekinglight Post Number: 127 Registered: 3-2009 |
If I were worried about being deceived, I wouldn't be on this forum b/c I'm on here despite all my SDA inhibitions | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 9784 Registered: 12-2003 |
Seekinglight, not to worry. I totally understand what you are saying, and I understand your saying you're not worried about being deceived. I get what you mean. Don't leave us now...it takes time to process everything we think and know, and sometimes the process just requires certain new glimpses, one at a time. Even though so much has changed in my perceptions, still just as I read this page right now I realized for the first time that the phrase "by beholding Jesus we become changed" is not in the Bible. I thought "by beholding we become changed" was a KJV memory verse...and to be honest, I hadn't thought of it in a long time. But just today I realized...amazing. (I also had to look it up, Grace, just to see...I checked the KJV version of The Blue Letter Bible...it's as you say.) I can see, Seekinglight, that your "paradigm" is changing, and God IS in charge of that change. You absolutely can trust Him. Sometimes He jolts us into realizing things we never suspected, and sometimes it actually takes awhile to process and see what it all means. What you're reading on this thread is the dawning on many of us of yet one more misperception. The light is shining on yet another dark spot. Don't feel we're ganging up on you. We're not--we totally understand where you're coming from. We're here to support each other in this process of learning to see reality from a biblical perspective, and it "hits" us differently at different times and in different ways. We love you, Seekinglight! Colleen | ||
| Doc Registered user Username: Doc Post Number: 366 Registered: 2-2003  |
I must say I have been really blessed by the comments posted here, the answer to "what should people do when they have already been saved" (Seekinglight) has been very adequately dealt with. My brief answer was going to be, "become a disciple of Jesus Christ" (not EGW or Joseph Smith or the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society or the Pope, or any other variation invented by man). And yes, forgiving people who have wronged is is certainly very difficult. I have struggled with it, but Jesus really does not give us the chance to consider it an "option" - he had quite a lot to say about it. As to what the "missing factor" is when it ain't workin' - I think it has to be looking to Jesus, yes, and submitting to the daily leading of the Holy Spirit. Not easy, but it has to be the answer. Adrian | ||
| Doc Registered user Username: Doc Post Number: 367 Registered: 2-2003 |
Hello Keri, According to standard Christian theology you are right that Jesus most certainly did not give up being God in the incarnation. This is from my Christology Bible school notes: “Christ in becoming a man did not cease to be God, neither did he give up the possession or use of the divine attributes. God was not changed into a man, but rather he assumed the nature of man without ceasing to be God. According to this, “kenosis” means that Christ added the human nature to his divine nature, and gave up the independent use of the divine attributes. He gave up the privilege of acting as God, and submitted himself to the Father’s will.” On Greek grammar. After I had written my former reply, I remembered learning about conditional sentences in Greek being rather difficult and using different tenses from in English, but I could not remember what the structures were, so I looked it up. There is a summary here: www.tyndale.ca/~iscott/Conditionals-handout.pdf Sorry if this gets a bit complicated. Most of you may wish to skip past this completely! The sentences in 1John 1:8-9 thus correspond to the so-called third class of conditionals, as they have the structure, as seen in the table: Protasis (“if” clause): eav + subjunctive (any tense) Apodosis (“conclusion” clause): any mood, any tense. This means (also from the table): “Presents the protasis as uncertain, but usually still likely.” On the tenses, I’m sure you remember how incredibly complicated Greek grammar is, and how there are so many different verb forms. Basically, there are the following tenses: present, future, imperfect, aorist, perfect, pluperfect. In the indicative, the present represents continuous or repeated action in the present, the aorist is a one-time completed action in the past. The subjunctive is the “mood of doubtful assertion”. So, the present subjunctive is doubtful assertion of continuous or repeated action, and the aorist subjunctive is doubtful assertion of a one-off action. The two verses above do not contain any verbs in the perfect tense, which is the “past action with influence on the present” as you mentioned above. These are found at the beginning of the chapter, for example: we have heard, our eyes have seen, etc… So, based on the above, a long-winded translation of the verse in question would be: “If we were to perform the probable but not completely certain action of continuing to confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will keep on forgiving our sins and will cleanse us from all unrighteousness.” That is what the Greek grammatical structure actually means. Bye for now, Adrian | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 6872 Registered: 3-2004  |
JRT and Cathy2, I learned about forgiveness in my 12 step program. Another thing I learned and will pass on is that before you go to forgive anyone, pray about it and ask yourself if this will hurt the person more then they have been hurt already or if it will hurt some one close to them. If it will, it is suggested that a letter be written, read to a very good friend and shred it. That is what I did with my ex because I know certain things I had to say would bring up old hurts. God is awesome in all He has taught me. Diana L | ||
| Hec Registered user Username: Hec Post Number: 118 Registered: 3-2009 |
Seekinglight, Greetings. Stay put. I know it's hard. Very hard. The way I look at it is that if River (oops, sorry River) anyone seems to be attacking (addressing would be the proper word)me. I don't take it personal. I already had plenty of that thin skin and hurt a lot in the SDA church. Now, I try to be somewhat more of an alligator even though it doesn't always work. I have the problem of wanting to be accepted. I guess is part of the package that I had (have) to discard. In adventism, we are always covering our backs, just in case, and we learn to be expert at covering the whole body. Therefore, most SDA suffer from a perfectionism syndrome. As Paul says, of which I am the first. We want to be accepted so we can't do or say anything that would rock the boat. River is teaching me here that we can be accepted even if we rock the boat. It's liberating. That we have to overlook our first feeling? Yes. But then we realize that we don't have to prove ourselves to noone here, and that's what makes it safe. So keep up your courage and let us have it. I'm just in the learning mode and you as a professor should take advantage of it. God bless, Hec |
