| Author | Message | ||
| Jrt Registered user Username: Jrt Post Number: 330 Registered: 10-2008 |
I did a search to see if I could find a thread discussing judgment. I didn't find any indepth/scriptural indication of judgment...So... As an Adventist I have had a "muddy" understanding of judgment. I understood judgment as something to come when Jesus returned and the dead in Christ were raised...blah, blah, blah... With the understanding of us having a "spirit"...then judgment really happens when we are "reborn"... meaning we are brought from death to life - so we do not face a judgment in front of the "great, white, throne"... There is a judgment for the wicked - so when does that take place? And isn't it dependent on your understanding of eschatology...premillinium, postmillinium, etc... Anyways, ....help me understand judgment from scripture??? --- For both the righteous and the unrighteous... Keri P.S. I'm not referring to the IJ...maybe I should have done a search of that and judgment has been alluded too and pulled apart in those threads... | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 2711 Registered: 10-2004  |
Keri, The unsaved face a judgment of their deeds at the Great White Throne judgment in Revelation 20, which is at the end of the Millennium. This does not include the saved, because it only includes the dead, and at this point the only dead are the unsaved (and all of the unsaved are dead--since the living unsaved had just been destroyed by fire from heaven). The unsaved dead are resurrected (this is the "second resurrection"), judged, and thrown into the Lake of Fire. As Jesus says in John 5:24, those who believe in Him do "not come into judgment." And in John 3:18, Jesus says: "He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God." (NASB.) So the saved do not face a judgment for salvation (since we've already been saved!). For the saved, there is, however, a "judgment" of rewards (which is based on our deeds). See 1 Corinthians 3, Romans 14:10-12, and 2 Corinthians 5:6-10. This is also called the Bema seat judgment (Bema being the Greek word translated "judgment" in Romans 14 and 2 Corinthians 5, which was also used of the place where the Olympians were handed their rewards). Jeremy (Message edited by Jeremy on April 23, 2009) | ||
| Philharris Registered user Username: Philharris Post Number: 1532 Registered: 5-2007  |
Keri, In the current issue of Proclamation Carolyn Ratzlaff's Stories of Faith article, My Cup Overflows, has a part where she tells how she did a word study on 'judgment' which was the turning point that led her out of Adventism. You might want to follow her example and get out Strong's concordance and look up every instance where judgment is mentioned. Phil | ||
| Grace_alone Registered user Username: Grace_alone Post Number: 1436 Registered: 6-2006  |
Keri, Mark Martin has some excellent audio sermons about the stated of the dead, including the judgment. Here's the link - http://www.exadventist.com/Home/Audio/tabid/57/Default.aspx They were very helpful for me, even though I was raised with the doctrines he's teaching now!  Leigh Anne | ||
| Hec Registered user Username: Hec Post Number: 90 Registered: 3-2009 |
Maybe this topic is the one for the day. Last night I was reading in Matthew where Jesus is separating the sheep from the goats:
Later on it continues saying that the sheep will go with him and the goats will be going to the darkness, etc. What is the relationship of this passage to the judgment? It doesn't sound like a judgment of rewards. And yet, the Bible says that the believer does not come into judgment. So how do we harmonize these passages? Hec | ||
| Hec Registered user Username: Hec Post Number: 91 Registered: 3-2009 |
Maybe this topic is the one for the day. Last night I was reading in Matthew where Jesus is separating the sheep from the goats:
Later on it continues saying that the sheep will go with him and the goats will be going to the darkness, etc. What is the relationship of this passage to the judgment? It doesn't sound like a judgment of rewards. And yet, the Bible says that the believer does not come into judgment. So how do we harmonize these passages? Hec | ||
| Philharris Registered user Username: Philharris Post Number: 1534 Registered: 5-2007 |
Hec, Sheep are sheep and goats are goats, before and after they are separated. They didn't didn't learn their respective idenities at the time of separation. Sheep know they are sheep and the same for goats. The sheep not only know they are sheep, more importantly, they know the voice of their true shepherd. The sheep are sheep even when goats are mixed in with the herd. Otherwise, the shepherd wouldn't allow them into the sheepfold. See John Chapter Ten, especially verse 4. Phil | ||
| Agapetos Registered user Username: Agapetos Post Number: 1876 Registered: 10-2002  |
Actually, kind of the opposite thing strikes me in the parable, Phil! These sheep didn't seem to recognize that they were sheep. Or actually, more accurately, they didn't recognize the Lord. At the end they recognized the Lord, but while "on earth" they hadn't always recognized Him. And then the goats, they hadn't always recognized the Lord on earth, either. It strikes me as parallel with the other parables in Matthew & the synoptic gospels, such as that of the Pharisee and the Tax Collector. One knew he was "a sheep", and the other felt himself unworthy of being a sheep. Or the parable of the Good Samaritan, where the "chosen people" passed by, and a foreigner received the wounded one -- received Him. It's like Paul ironed out from the prophets, that those who believe and live in love, for them it is true that "those who were not called 'My people' shall be called 'the people of God'." Hec, I don't think it says too much about the timing of judgment. Just like the Parable of the Weeds, both the sons of God and the sons of the wicked one are in the same field (the earth) until God separates them. The point here is more about the criteria for judgment. Entering into and living in His agape love is the second great commandment and is "like the first". It's part of loving God. If we don't love our neighbors (and enemies) who we can see, how can we love God whom we cannot see? Moreover, Christ loved us and died for us while we were His enemies. How then can we refuse to love others who are our neighbors and our enemies, since Christ has loved them, too? There is an indefinite line, I believe, between "belief" and "love". Some would say "works" or "actions" instead of "love", but I think "love" makes the nature of it more clear. But "obedience" is probably the best word. This is what the book of James is about, because it is not enough to profess belief in the gospel, but the gospel must be obeyed. It's a gut-wracking thing... because it means accepting that not only are your own works filthy rags in His sight, but also the other guy's works are equally filthy rags. And just as God has loved you, so God has loved him, too. So you had better get prepared to love him, too! It does us little good to say that we accept God but not accept His heart. It does little good to say that we accept God but not listen to Him when He talks to us. I say that this is an indefinite line, because really it is something that only God can judge. That's why the Sheep & Goats parable has God doing the judging, and people (on both sides) are shown to be somewhat clueless in one way or another. Rather this shows that He --the Word Himself-- pierces to look at our hearts. THis parable cuts to the state of our hearts and urges us to have a willingness, if you will, a willingness to let Him have His way and love as He loved. Only God knows the secrets of peoples' hearts. Only God knows when someone has "crossed the line". Only God knows when someone's heart has hardened too far. (And I thank God that such decisions and criteria are in His hands!) Here it is very easy for many people to freak out, because then we wonder, "Have I fully surrendered my heart?" But Jesus said that he who comes to Him will not be cast out. So we come to Him and give Him our hearts -- our hearts don't have to be perfect. We simply give our imperfect hearts to Him and choose to trust Him with our hearts. Trust that He knows best and that He won't let you go (like John 10 says!). And in His timing and in His way, He will let you know that you are His own. And you will hear His voice. This is why John 14 says that to him who obeys His commandments (love!), He will reveal Himself to that person. This isn't a theological formula that will tell you for sure that you are saved or lost. It's simply something from Scripture that tells us to pick up the phone and call God, so to speak. Because the only way we will ever know "for sure" is when we pick up the phone hear it from Him Himself. Our assurance/confirmation that we are saved comes from the Holy Spirit. He roots us in Scripture and we stand on His word, but His word tells us that His Spirit will confirm to us that we are His. Occasionally in an effort to be systematic, some theologies try to sort of mathematically calculate things, but that doesn't give us deep assurance. We may think it does, but there's nothing like the confirmation that comes from His Spirit & knowing His love is in you (as 1st John says). | ||
| Philharris Registered user Username: Philharris Post Number: 1535 Registered: 5-2007 |
Well Ramone, Sheep are sheep even if they don't know it. However, Jesus assures us that his sheep will know his voice. Phil | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 4631 Registered: 9-2006  |
I've been accused of having horns on this forum, what they don't know though is a sheep has a harder head than a goat! | ||
| Agapetos Registered user Username: Agapetos Post Number: 1877 Registered: 10-2002 |
Phil, especially true of Shaun the sheep (River's icon)... he doesn't seem to think he's a sheep but a human! Great sheep, that Shaun. It's an interesting comparison between the two, Phil, that is, Matthew 25 and John 10. Because He says that His sheep will hear His voice. But then in Matthew He said that the sheep had not recognized Him on earth. Quite amazing, don't you think? I think this simply indicates that the most fundamental and important way we "hear" Him is not with our heads, but with our hearts. And it is there that we respond to His call. Often it is a call to trust, to believe, to have faith, but equally often (perhaps more sometimes) it is call to love. Like 1st John says, he who loves knows God. He who does not love does not know God. The book of 1st John makes a good bridge between those two 'sheep' passages, don't you think? Especially considering that the same John probably wrote John 10 and 1st John! Today we tend to think of "hearing God" primarily cognitively or in an intellectual sense -- that is, by recognizing in our minds that we are "hearing" God. Or by knowing Scripture in our minds. Yet the Pharisees knew a heckuva lotta Scriptures yet many of them were "not His sheep". They didn't hear Him. Reminds me of how Jesus said, "If anyone has ears, let him hear!" And how He added onto that in Revelation, "let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches!" Again, we tend to think even of the "Spirit" in an intellectual sense, mathematical-izing it to knowing a set of Scriptures or certain systematic principles. But lower-casing the word "spirit" puts things in terms of nature, essence and heart. Hear what God's heart says! That seems to be the point of 1st John, that if we say we know God, we'd better know His heart of love. If we don't know His heart, then we only know His name, and like James says, just knowing His name isn't quite the same. "Believe" entails knowing who He is. Not mere ontological information about the Trinity (although that is important), but more importantly knowing who He is -- that He is agape love. So I think (from looking at 1st John & Matthew 25 & the synoptic gospels) that the "hearing His voice" in John 10 has a lot deeper of a meaning than we usually think! A lot deeper anyway than I used to think of it! Because those "sheep" in Matthew 25 did hear Him, only they didn't know it with their heads! They knew His voice (and followed His voice) with their hearts. God is AWESOME! | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 4635 Registered: 9-2006 |
Agape, I think primarily the reason the sheep didn’t recognize the work they did while on the earth is not because they did not know they were sheep, but because they were humble sheep and as you said followed God with their hearts. More often than not I see the gifts in operation on this forum, what amazes me is that we do not recognize the gifts that are in operation. For instance I see the gift of mercy in you. It’s kind of amusing in a way. The one who has a gift of mercy will say “That is the way to do it.” The one having a gift of giving say “Oh no, we must give! That is the way its done.” The one with the gift of exhortation says “No, No, your all wrong, we have to preach and preach it hard…that’s the only way to do it.” And this goes on and on, its not that they want to argue or be unloving, its just the different functions in the gifts, when cars run, they move, and when a gift functions, they function. What happens here I think is that the leg doesn’t recognize it has an arm and the arm says to the leg “What you doing walking, can’t you see I’m swinging? You can’t function without swinging. And the leg says “Walk fool.” The problem is that the arm can’t walk and the leg can’t swing. The gift of mercy says to the preacher, your just to rough, you have gone over the edge and your liable to hurt someone. Now I realize this is going off course from the line of thought on this thread, but it is just that the gifts God has instilled in you is so prominent. You keep me amused. River | ||
| Animal Registered user Username: Animal Post Number: 421 Registered: 7-2008  |
remember...be kind to animals feed them rootbeer and popcorn ...Animal | ||
| Animal Registered user Username: Animal Post Number: 422 Registered: 7-2008 |
If you forget to do this.... you might be in danger of Judgment so be warned.. ...Animal...you have been so warned | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 2712 Registered: 10-2004 |
Ramone, Where does it say that the sheep didn't recognize Him while on earth? I don't see that in the passage. Jeremy | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 9737 Registered: 12-2003  |
River, that's an insightful observation. Colleen | ||
| Agapetos Registered user Username: Agapetos Post Number: 1883 Registered: 10-2002 |
Jeremy -- when the sheep said, "When did we see You naked, Lord?" (etc.) | ||
| Agapetos Registered user Username: Agapetos Post Number: 1887 Registered: 10-2002 |
Jeremy or anyone else have any reaction to that? I don't know about the rest of you, but it cuts me to the heart! Amazing! Awesome! And it pierces me! Because we so often try to separate works of love (the exercising of love) from the "profession of faith". And yet like 1st John shows, he know loves knows God! And he who does not love does not know God -- even if he professes to know God! I am just flattened by this and CONVICTED and groan in my spirit, because this sword pierces me and re-centers me back on Him Himself instead of "correct" information about Him! God IS love! Love is not just a component of who God is, not just a part of the message, but love IS who He is, and love IS His command! How often in the modern church (or anti-cult apologetics) do we major in correctness of doctrine and minor in love? Still cut to the heart in His love and by His love! Ramone | ||
| Hec Registered user Username: Hec Post Number: 98 Registered: 3-2009 |
That is precisely one of the main problems with SDAism. They pride themselves in having the correct doctrine. I think their priorities go something like this:
Hec | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 6824 Registered: 3-2004  |
And no mention of Jesus Christ and what he did for us. How sad. Diana L | ||
| Agapetos Registered user Username: Agapetos Post Number: 1889 Registered: 10-2002 |
I hadn't thought of anything I had typed in comparison with Adventism. I was thinking of the Christian church in general. It is true of Adventism, but it is so easy for us to focus on them and miss how often we miss this... it's especially easy for us to fall into this, I think, because we discovered that Adventism had false doctrines, and we are easily excited by true doctrines. It's easy to sort of get high on doctrines and spend a lot of our time there, so to speak. I've seen His love missed so often in anti-cult ministries, or among self-appointed "watchmen" who feel it is their duty to list as many heretical or cultic teachings (or teachers) on their websites. I think there is no greater danger to those who wish to fight against untruth than the loss of love -- the elevation of correct profession of faith, so that it becomes a standard by which love is allowed to be given or is withheld. This in turn reminds me that when Jesus told the parable of the sheep & goats, He wasn't speaking to some minor sect of Jews who had broken away from orthodoxy. He wasn't speaking to a Jewish "cult", but to all people, and especially to all Christian believers (for who else habitually reads His word except for those who believe in Him?). | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 4651 Registered: 9-2006 |
I get the main thrust of what you have been saying, that there is danger of loss of love even in our ministries. In our passion for our ministries we become rigid in some doctrine, very possible. Even theologians get that way. Basically it boils down to the fact that our ministries go on, but have lost the personal relationship with God. I have been saying for awhile that I fear the former will fall out of Adventism and fall into some doctrine or other and then become that same ridgid person he/she was before, having lost the excitement and the passion for following our Lord in a restful and blessed daily relationship. I see that happening to some extent even to the best of intentioned and dedicated and I am aware that this can happen to me. Recently a minister said that we should carry a statement of our faith around in our pocket. I thought, why would I want to do that when my faith is my statement? He stated the articles of his faith and it sounded like it was being read of the 'what we believe' on some website. He stated that we need to go back to the basics of ouf statement of faith often. I highly disagree, we must go to Jesus often and allow him to renew our minds and have personal time with him, spend quality time with Jesus. That all said, for us, it's not the general 'out there' we have to watch, its the 'us here' we need to concentrate on (Not that you ain't understand, I think you is). Faith in action is a daily and constant walk with God and that is hard enough to maintain without looking up from our work and find out the Lord is a quarter mile up the road. It is only in him and by him we move and have our being. Acts 17:28. He is not far from each of us. I so do not want to leave love behind in order to be 'right' and I figure if I stop and let love have its way, the 'right' part will take care of itself. River | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 9743 Registered: 12-2003 |
I agree, River and Ramone. So well said. Colleen | ||
| Agapetos Registered user Username: Agapetos Post Number: 1890 Registered: 10-2002 |
Interesting, River. It makes me think of two things... First, about the minister's statement you mentioned, it reminded me of the letter to the Ephesians in Revelation 2. Jesus's idea of going "back to basics" was a little bit different. Jesus commended the Ephesians for having good "truth" -- they had tested people claiming to be apostles, hated the Nicolatians' practices, did not tolerate wickedness. They had worked hard for Him, perservered, endured hardships for His name, and they were determined not to grow weary but to stick with His name. But He said they had lost their first love. Whoa. Like you said, go back to Jesus. Spend time with Him. Bask in His love, and love Him back. Shut yourself in a room with Him and nothing else. Go back to your prayer closet and find out that your Father has been waiting there for you! (For ME!!) No matter all that correct discernment and truth that the Ephesians had had, their loss of love meant that Christ was about to come take away their lampstand -- He would remove their status as a "church" in His eyes! They didn't need to just "remember" one element that they sometimes forgot; no, they needed to REPENT! To those who overcame this (those who repented), they would have the right to eat from the tree of life. Make no mistake, they were full of "truth" but were in danger of losing their right to the tree of life because they had lost their love. As Paul said, without love I am nothing. But not only "nothing", without love I am dead. ***** River, when you said that minister said we should carry our statement of faith around in our pocket... wow, I am trying not to judge him for that, because it just sounds almost ridiculous! But I know for some people it may be how God is leading them, or they might find a fresh joy in it, like the joy of discovering creeds. But it just struck me as so.... OFF. You know, when Jesus is born inside of you, everything is different! It's not like you have to adopt a statement of faith, but rather your "statement" flows out of you, like you said "my faith is my statement". Maybe he was saying that as a kind of way of evangelism or something. Generally we tend to think that evangelism is the passing on of knowledge. But that's not what the great commission says. The great commission says "teach them to obey everything I have commanded you." His commands are firstly the great two (1st John 3:23), and then everything that His Spirit says to us (often through the Scriptures). In other words, teach people how to hear Him and obey Him. Just like He said, "If anyone ears, let him hear what the Spirit says!" Generally we teach people knowledge, but He commanded us to speak His word. And then He commanded us to be doers of the word, not mearly hearers. Awhile ago someone on the forum mentioned that she had asked God what He wants her to pray for, and then she spent ten minutes waiting on God and writing down whatever He brought to mind. She was surprised to notice how much action God brought to mind -- not only things to pray about, but things she could do. When my wife and I did the same exercise, we had the same results. Not just things to pray, but more often simply actions. Simple steps to take here or there, often to share His love with others. A friend we hadn't seen in awhile -- visit her. Another friend who was down -- call her and listen to her. When a house church minister from Indonesia was speaking about this here recently, he said that in their networks after they study something or receive something from God, they ask themselves a few questions, including "what does this mean for my life?" and "what does this mean for the people around me?" They don't just absorb knowledge, but they find that each thing God reveals to them demands a response. Some kind of response, change or action in their lives. Maybe a small step. Maybe a big one. But something. So they ask themselves, hear what He is saying (what He is calling them to), and then they go do it. And when they meet next time, they report about it! Ha! But it's good. He said that one of his young leaders told him, "If I don't act on something He tells me within 48 hours, I lose it." I've found that true in my own life, too. If I don't do it soon, I forget. Or I marginalize it, or put it on the shelf for "later"... "when I'm ready." ***** Anyway, the second thing you reminded me of with that story and post, River, is about evangelizing. One of my friends posted on her Facebook account this sentence: "What you convert a person with is what you convert them to." So true, don't you think? We make disciples not only after the manner of our knowledge, but also after the manner in which we deliver it to them. And if the "knowledge" we give people is not something that actually changes lives, but is just knowledge & doctrines & "truth", then they will be like us -- enamoured with facts, information, and so on, and zealous for others to be as equally zealous with these as they themselves are. If we preach with an iron fist, our disciples will convert with an iron fist. If we use fear tactics, our disciples will find them indispensible. If we use exaggeration to amplify our case, so will those who end up learning something from us. But if we use love... in Christ's words: "By this all people will know that you are My disciples, if you love one another as I have loved you." So in the words of St. Francis of Assisi: "Preach the gospel; if necessary, use words." Amen! In His love, Ramone | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 9747 Registered: 12-2003 |
""What you convert a person with is what you convert them to." " Great quote! This sentence totally sums up reality, in my mind. I've often heard variations on this theme: What good is it to help a person come to Jesus but then not tell him where to go from there?" The question always seems wrong to me. When a person has been born again, God Himself takes charge of that person and convicts and teaches him or her. Obviously He uses other believers to help him or her learn the milk and then the meat of the word, but we can trust God to lead that person when he or she is surrendering to Him. Jesus is the One to whom we continue to bring into focus. If we are returning to Him, submitting to His word, yielding ourselves to Him as a living sacrifice, He will reveal Himself more and more deeply. Jesus IS the truth, and He takes us, step by step, through the experiences He knows we need in order to learn to trust Him more and more deeply. Our job is to encourage one another and to keep lifting Jesus before one another—the "real" Jesus: sovereign, all-powerful, all-knowing, unlimited, almighty God: JESUS! Colleen | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 4673 Registered: 9-2006 |
I think what we need to pass along in teaching is spiritual truths. To instill spiritual truths to people is to give them something they can get mileage out of. Through individual Bible study they will arrive at doctrine, if they don't do Bible study then how will doctrine suffice? I am sure the minister meant some of that toward evangelism, yes, but it still sounded so 'off'. Is that what evangelism is? You jerk out your statement of faith which varies from church to church? Well if that is evangelism I ain't never done any. When I talk to someone about God, my 'statement of faith' is the furthest thing from my mind.In fact I don't reckon I got one. I tell them about Jesus and his saving grace, his willingness to save and to give them peace and I got no set way of doing that even. I don't have any plans as to what I will say, I never was comfortable with Bible tracts neither or tricks neither. I just don't have a certain way to do anything. It may work for some people and what works for them well...ptl. I'm with you Colleen, if we spend our time lifting one another up and encouraging one another perhaps we are introducing them to Jesus. Don't get me wrong, if I am led of the spirit to warn or rebuke just consider it done and there are times when we need to address head on, call out and rebuke. At times I feel that its more caring and loving when you hit truth head on and drive it in with a ten penny nail, better to rebuke than watch them burn up coming out of orbit. Some times I feel like I need to get real truthful, blunt and penetrate as a sharp needle, to gouge out the festering sore and when I let it go and don't do it, I feel as if I have let them down in a real bad way. River |
