| Author | Message | ||
| Hec Registered user Username: Hec Post Number: 41 Registered: 3-2009 |
This is a good explanation. Thanks. Yes, the definition of death would make a deference in interpreting this passage. Now Colleen says:
Are you suggesting that the wicked are resurrected with a "glorified body"? Isn't a glorified body a body fit for "glory"? Isn't "glory" heaven? or new earth? That wasn't clear for me in your explanation. Hec | ||
| Hec Registered user Username: Hec Post Number: 42 Registered: 3-2009 |
Questions, questions. If the "second death" that the wicked will suffer will be eternal punishing, how can we say that Jesus suffered the "second death"? He is not being punished now. And if Jesus suffered the "second death", isn't it possible them that the "second death" will have an end instead of eternally dying and never die? Hec | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 9658 Registered: 12-2003  |
This is the mystery of Jesus' sacrifice, Hec. He didn't suffer for us in a linear way—sin for sin for sin and multiplied time on multiplied time. He, the Infinite One, suffered infinitely as He took ALL the sin of the world into Himself. He became sin, as 2 Cor 5:21 says. He didn't just suffer for sin. Moreover, Gal 3:13 says he became a curse. His suffering was infinite because He is infinite. We really can't explain HOW this is so, but we know it IS so. Jesus didn't just do a representative death for humanity. He literally became humanity's sin and suffered the infinite pain of separation from the Father. Humans who suffer eternally are experiencing the consequences of rejecting the Sin Bearer. Their consequence must be inversely as significant as the outcome of accepting the Sin Bearer. We cannot compare a normal human's suffering (which at any rate, seems to differ from one to another; the Bible has a few suggestions that there are degrees of suffering in hell—just as there are varying rewards for the saved-see 1 Cor 3) with the suffering of Jesus for the entire history of the world. Regarding glorified or spiritual bodies—we really aren't told what makes them different from ours, but JEsus' experience after the resurrection suggests that He can function outside of three dimensions and time in ways we cannot. Resurrection bodies are immortal—that is the main thing 1 Cor 15 says. We aren't told what makes them immortal. We know from Jesus' own words that those He did not know will go into the fires of hell where they will experience eternal punishment. Since Revelation 20 says they are resurrected first, and since there's no passage to suggest there are differences between the immortal nature of the saved and the nature of the resurrected wicked, it seems possible to assume the wicked can suffer eternally in hell precisely because they are sent there in resurrection bodies. Of course, I don't have "special knowledge"—I'm just reading these texts and seeing connections. I may see things differently in the future... Colleen | ||
| 8thday Registered user Username: 8thday Post Number: 834 Registered: 11-2007  |
Thanks Colleen for those explanations! I knew there was a biblical "second death" - just not the way Adventists teach it! When their concept is applied to the death of Christ, it creates problems for me! =) I had not heard anyone really explain it though since leaving Adventism, from a biblical perspective, so thank you! This is a big help. I included alot of what I learned here in an Easter blog, so thanks so much for educating me!! =) | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 2684 Registered: 10-2004  |
Hec, I would like to share my understanding of some of the things you're asking. First of all, the penalty for our sin is "eternal punishment" (Matthew 25:46). Those who reject Jesus Christ are guilty of an "eternal sin" (Mark 3:29). Our sin is against an infinite God, and therefore we deserve an infinite punishment. So, how could Jesus have paid the price for our sin? Because He is the infinite God, and His sacrifice is of an infinite value. Because He is the infinite God, He was able to pay an infinite price by dying on the Cross for our sins. It was His physical death, His blood shed for us that atoned for our sins. 1 Peter 2:24 tells us, "He Himself bore our sins in His body on the cross" (NASB). Notice that it was in His body, not His spirit, that He bore our sins. "Nothing but the blood of Jesus!" His spirit could not have been separated from the Father, since there is only one divine spirit--one undivided and indivisible God, who is outside time and unchangeable. And if we say that it was only His humanity that was separated from God, then we separate Him into two persons and go into the realm of the ancient heresies of Gnosticism/Nestorianism. Also, if His spirit was separated from God, then that would mean that He would have to be "born again" and that His spirit was dead (and sinful and was at enmity, and against, God!)--just like our spirits which are separated from God have to be "born again." But these conclusions would be blasphemous since Jesus IS the sinless God! Jesus was always spiritually "alive"--His spirit was never "dead" (the Biblical definition of being "separated from God"). The NT epistles teach over and over that it was Jesus' death on the Cross that saved us and atoned for our sins. They never say that Jesus was separated from God, or that that is how He suffered the penalty for our sin (and if that is how He paid the penalty, then why did He even need to die physically?). There is nothing like that in the direct, didactic teachings of the New Testament. So we can't take one quote from the narrative of the Gospels, and extrapolate a whole teaching from that, which the apostles themselves never do (and which would actually contradict their teaching that it was His death that paid the penalty). In fact, Paul tells us that "God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself" (2 Corinthians 5:19 NASB). And Jesus said: "Behold, an hour is coming, and has already come, for you to be scattered, each to his own home, and to leave Me alone; and yet I am not alone, because the Father is with Me." (John 16:32 NASB.) So the Father did not forsake Him! So then how do we interpret Jesus' words in Matthew 27:46 and Mark 15:34 ("MY GOD, MY GOD, WHY HAVE YOU FORSAKEN ME?")? Does this contradict any of the above? Well, all we have to do is look at the context, and we will see that it actually fits perfectly. It was in comparing the context of Matthew 27 and Psalm 22 (where Jesus' quote comes from) earlier today, that I am finally beginning to really understand this more fully. Matthew purposefully, under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, puts the following all together:
Notice how those words in verse 43 are in all caps, indicating a quote from the Old Testament? Well, guess which passage of the OT it is quoting? Psalm 22, the same Psalm that Jesus is quoting in verse 46! So, Jesus' answer to them was His words in verse 46, directing them to Psalm 22. The Jews would quote the first line of a Psalm, to refer to that Psalm. So Jesus was quoting the first line of the Psalm, to direct everyone's attention to the entire Psalm. In essence, He was really quoting the whole Psalm (by quoting the first line)! And if you read the whole Psalm, in context, it all becomes very clear. In fact, verse 24 even states explicitly that God did NOT even hide His face from Jesus, much less "forsake" (or abandon) Him:
(And the cross reference for the last part of that verse takes you to Hebrews 5:7, which talks about Jesus.) So, since Jesus was quoting the first line of this Psalm and directing everyone to the entire Psalm, then this shows that He was fully aware of what the whole Psalm said and that He was saying that He knew that God had not forsaken Him at the exact same time that He was quoting the first line! In other words, it was as if He were quoting the whole Psalm all at once, which states in verse 24 that He knew that God had not forsaken Him, and also in that chapter that He knew He would rise again (which, incidentally, EGW denies, saying that He couldn't see through the portals of the tomb). In fact, EGW directly contradicts Psalm 22:24, saying that the Father did "hide His face" from Jesus. So, at the very moment that Jesus said "Why have You forsaken Me?" He was saying that knew that He had not forsaken Him (the rest of the Psalm)! Here is what pastor and author Tony Campolo says about Jesus' words on the Cross:
Transcribed from: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HSOSudKLJ78&feature=channel_page Please listen to everything that Campolo has to say about it, at the above video link on youtube (starting at about the 1:45 mark, after the song). His explanation is just great! I can't explain how wonderful it is to me to finally understand this more fully! Praise Jesus for Good Friday! Jeremy P.S. Guess what song just started playing in the background as I was about to post this? "Nothing but the blood of Jesus"!  (Message edited by Jeremy on April 10, 2009) | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 2685 Registered: 10-2004 |
One more thing: I find it interesting that most Catholics don't seem to have any trouble understanding Matthew 27/Psalm 22, and yet many Protestants (including pastors and commentators) seem confused by it. At least Tony Campolo is one Protestant that gets it and helps explain it well! Jeremy | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 9663 Registered: 12-2003 |
Jeremy, thank you! That's a wonderful explanation, and it makes much clearer sense to me now. Jesus the man undoubtedly felt isolated, but he knew that the Father was in Him. He suffered the weight of sin, but He was, as you said, always spiritually alive which means His spirit was never separated from the Father. Thank you for talking through this. Colleen | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 9664 Registered: 12-2003 |
OK—I've been cogitating on this subject, and I'm finally seeing this. So here's how it makes sense to me now: I always thought Jesus "died the second death" so I wouldn't have to. In other words, I assumed that His death for my sin—or else His isolation on the cross—was His experiencing the second death. But this is an unbiblical concept. The Bible only says that Jesus was a propitiation; the Lamb slain; He became sin and a curse; He died a substitutionary death. Jesus' sacrifice was NOT the second death. The second death is eternal, conscious separation from God. Jesus WAS God, and He was never separated from Him although as a man He felt isolated and alone. But the second death means that those in the lake of fire (identified in Rev 20 as the second death) ARE spiritually dead. They do not have the life of God—in them. They are not able to approach the Father. They are DEAD. Jesus was never dead. This is part of what made Him the perfect and substitutionary sacrifice for us. He WAS spiritually alive, and He never stopped being or being connected to God. His sacrifice was powerful and effective BECAUSE He was alive. Animal sacrifices were shadows and did not cleanse us. If Jesus had actually died spiritually, His sacrifice would have been just as ineffective as those animals. But Jesus was God, and His Spirit did NOT die. That was the essence of His righteousness. That righteousness is what made His sacrifice effective as the infinite substitution for all sin. So, Jesus' body died, and His human blood paid for our human sin. But His eternal spiritual aliveness is what made that sacrifice effective for us all—infinite. His sacrifice is what keeps US from experiencing the "second death". Jesus did not have to experience the second death (spiritual death and separation from God) to be our substitute. He just had to be the propitiation for our sin. No less than God, the One possessor of innate spiritual life, could have been our substitute, and no less than a man could have paid for human sin. So, Jesus did NOT experience the second death. He only experienced the first death—and his being imputed with our sin forever broke its power. The second death, as Rev 20 says, was prepared for the devil and His angels, and the unrepentant will also go there. Jesus did not "go" there. He was always alive—and that eternal, innate LIFE is what made His sacrifice infinite. Thanks again, Jeremy, for taking my thinking down this path! Colleen | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 2687 Registered: 10-2004 |
Wow, Colleen, thanks for adding some helpful thoughts, such as the following: "But Jesus was God, and His Spirit did NOT die. That was the essence of His righteousness. That righteousness is what made His sacrifice effective as the infinite substitution for all sin." I hadn't really thought about it in that exact way. This fits with the explanation I've heard of Jesus being the Lamb "without blemish and without spot" (1 Peter 1:19)--the "without blemish" being a reference to His sinless nature (His alive spirit), and the "without spot" being a reference to the fact that "He committed no sin" (1 Peter 2:22 NASB). So, as you said, He had to have a living spirit (sinless nature) in order be the unblemished Lamb who takes away the sin of the world! (By the way, there actually are teachers in the false Word of Faith movement that teach outright that Jesus had to be "born again" in Hell after He died, because His spirit had died on the Cross and He had a sinful nature!) Also, here are a couple more thoughts that I've had about Hell/the second death. If the wicked are able to be annihilated, then that would mean that they've been able to atone for their sins (which is what Adventism actually teaches!). (And if they have atoned for their sins, then why do they need to be annihilated, why couldn't they then go to heaven?) But in reality, the unsaved must suffer punishment forever, precisely because they can't atone for their sins--if they could, then they could stop being punished. Of course, Adventism even teaches that satan can atone for his own sins, which is horrific in itself--and then they also add that he can, and will, atone for the sins of the righteous, also, as the scapegoat!!! But the wicked, and especially satan, have no way that they can atone for their sins! They must be "tormented day and night forever and ever" as Revelation 20:10 says. Jeremy (Message edited by Jeremy on April 11, 2009) | ||
| Hec Registered user Username: Hec Post Number: 47 Registered: 3-2009 |
Oh boy, here we go again, I have two questions:
Hec | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 2688 Registered: 10-2004 |
Hec, 1. Well, the phrase "first death" isn't actually in the Bible (in fact, if you do a Google search on that phrase you get a lot of SDA results!). The second death is what the unsaved must suffer. And Revelation 20:14 and 21:8 state explicitly that the Lake of Fire "is the second death." Jesus' death and shed blood on the Cross is what atoned for our sins and saves us from suffering the second death (the Lake of Fire). 2. The child would be born/conceived sinful, with sinful flesh and a sinful, dead spirit. While it is true that you now have a living spirit, you still have sinful flesh (your spirit is alive, but your body is still mortal sinful flesh until it is resurrected and/or glorified). We are all born sinful, dead in sin and separated from God, because of Adam's sin (see Romans 5). Also, Hebrews 12:9 says that God is "the Father of spirits." Jeremy (Message edited by Jeremy on April 11, 2009) | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 2689 Registered: 10-2004 |
Jesus did not have to be punished forever precisely because He was able to actually atone for our sins--"once for all when He offered up Himself" (Hebrews 7:27 NASB). "nor was it that He would offer Himself often, as the high priest enters the holy place year by year with blood that is not his own. 26Otherwise, He would have needed to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now once at the consummation of the ages He has been manifested to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself." (Hebrews 9:25-26 NASB.) "For God's will was for us to be made holy by the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ, once for all time." (Hebrews 10:10 NLT.) "For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, so that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit; 19in which also He went and made proclamation to the spirits now in prison," (1 Peter 3:18-19 NASB.) Jeremy (Message edited by Jeremy on April 11, 2009) | ||
| Hec Registered user Username: Hec Post Number: 50 Registered: 3-2009 |
Thanks Jeremy, 1. If Jesus is paying my penalty, shouldn't he pay the penalty that I would suffer? I he doesn't die (somehow) the second death, how is he paying for my second death? 2. If my spirit is alive and my body is sinful, shouldn't my progeny be born with a live spirit and a sinful body? Doesn't spirit produces spirit and body produces body? A dead spirit would produce a dead spirit, but how would a live spirit produce a dead spirit? Hec | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 2690 Registered: 10-2004 |
Hec, 1. Because Jesus is the infinite God, His death was of an infinite value, and was therefore able to pay the infinite price for all our sins. 2. I'm not sure about this one. It does seem (from Hebrews 12:9, Zechariah 12:1, and Isaiah 42:5, for example) that it is God who gives us our spirits, not our parents. Apparently there has been debate throughout Christian history about this (see here and here). Of course we can't say that God creates sinful spirits. But because we are under Adam's curse and born of sinful parents, perhaps the spirit that He joins to our bodies is born dead. Regardless of "how" it happens, though, the New Testament is very clear throughout that we are all born with dead spirits, that need to be "born again." Jeremy (Message edited by Jeremy on April 11, 2009) | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 4534 Registered: 9-2006  |
Jeremy, I have never heard such a clear and logical explanation for that passage. If you reword it slightly to say 'Myself, myself, why have I forsaken myself?.' it turns nonsensical. The passage has never bothered me in particular because it is a beautiful passage and to my spirit it was part of his giving himself for me. But it is always nice to come to a logical conclusion. Yet I am not completely satisfied that is the correct answer since Jesus was 100% man also and the 100% man would needs have been forsaken, his body, to stand in stead for the sinner, because the unrepentant sinner will surely be forsaken and cast off forever. I would like to hear other theologians take on it. I am perfectly happy with the explanation you provided for now. I am satisfied in my soul that he brought complete redemption and that I can and do rest in him. I feel very comfortable in leaving what I do not understand in his capable hands. Thanks. River | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 9665 Registered: 12-2003 |
According to the Bible, we are all born "in Adam". The curse of dead spirits is our natural legacy from Adam's sin. Living spirits are the result of being born of God, not of the will of man (John 1:13). We are given only one right as humans: the right to become children of God (John 1:12). Jesus' incarnation, death, and resurrection instituted a new "race", in a way. As natural humans, all of us are born in Adam and born spiritually dead. When we come to faith in Jesus, we are born of God, the Bible says. This new birth transfers us from being in Adam to being in Christ (1 Cor 15:22; also Col 1:13). Our new birth is literally a miracle. It is not transmitted via human nature or genetics. Just as Jesus' incarnation was a miracle, unexplainable by human genetics, biology, or philosophy, so our new births are also inexplicable miracles. Each person must come to faith in Jesus. We cannot come to faith and bear children who are already alive to God. The point about the church which Paul explains in Ephesians and Romans is that the genetic heritage which gave the Jews a sense of privilege is null and void as a mark of belonging to God. We belong to God by grace through faith. We cannot transmit being a believer to our children. Each person must be born again of God individually. Being born again is the mark of being a believer, and this cannot happen apart from placing saving faith in the Lord Jesus. Regarding paying the price that I must suffer...Jesus took the wrath of God. The Bible says that believers will not come under condemnation (John 5:24) and the wrath of God comes on the "sons of disobedience" (Eph 3:6; Col 5:6). Jesus took the wrath of God without being spiritually dead. He is God as well as man, and His spirit did not die. This fact of His eternal spiritual life is what made it possible for Him to take the wrath of God for every one of us, not only one person's sin. He is infinite. Think how much worse experiencing the wrath of God for every believer would be than merely experiencing the wrath of God for oneself. Further, as a living spiritually alive person, His suffering would be much more painful than if He were merely spiritually dead and very angry. He did take the consequences of our sin—but He didn't die spiritually. Jesus is a "singularity". His incarnation is a miracle and a mystery. He didn't have to die spiritually in order to be my substitute. He did, however, have to take the wrath of God for my sin. And this He did. Dead spirits are God's decree for sinners in their natural state. Adam, by sinning, sealed the fate of humanity because he was the head of the human race. Jesus, the "second Adam", is the head of the race of those who are made alive with His resurrection life. Today, the earth is filled with two kinds of people: natural humanity dead in sin, and children of God born of God and alive with the Holy Spirit giving them life. The living and the dead work and live and play together. Remember when Jesus said to the man who wanted to go bury his father before following Him, "Let the dead bury their own dead"? Jesus was talking about spiritually dead people. He wasn't being "insensitive"; He was saying, "Follow Me. Those who don't, remain dead. Don't look back. Choose to follow Me, and you will gain Life." Colleen | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 6763 Registered: 3-2004  |
Thanks Colleen, now I know what it meeans, "Let the dead bury their own dead". Diana L | ||
| Hec Registered user Username: Hec Post Number: 52 Registered: 3-2009 |
I better call the fire department so they won't come and fine me again. A lot of this makes perfect sense. Although I still have some confusion on the origin of the spirit. If we explain it, following Jeremy's links, as traducianism, then how can a live spirit produce a dead spirit. If we explain it as creatianism, would God place a dead spirit in a new born baby? Of course, part of my confusion could be due to my long immersion on the SOTD of the SDA's. Hec | ||
| Jeremiah Registered user Username: Jeremiah Post Number: 435 Registered: 1-2004  |
This teaching about the "dead spirit" becoming an "alive spirit" is something which Eastern Orthodox Christians understand a bit differently. It can be explained fairly well with reference to a quote from Justin Martyr;
A man does not exist as a man except if the soul and body are together. The "spirit" is that breath of life from God, which is a constant active gift from God. What is being explained in this thread as the "spirit" of man more closely resembles what Orthodox Christians see as the "soul" of man. Orthodox Christians see human physical death as a very un-natural state. In fact, it is seen as so un-natural that we believe the judgement of a person will only be carried out after the resurrection when soul and body are united. What Jesus did, in Orthodox understanding, is destroy permanent human physical death for everyone. Because Jesus took on our flesh, died, then rose again, Hades has no more permanent power over people. Both good and evil people will be resurrected. The difference between heaven and hell is all in how a person is prepared for full exposure to God as He is. The wicked people will wish that Jesus never died and was resurrected because then they would never have been resurrected and judged in their bodies. In Orthodox understanding, the "spirit" known as the "breath of life" in Genesis is the grace of the Holy Spirit; it is the constant flow of life from God. In the Nicene Creed it is referred to in the section on the Holy Spirit where the Holy Spirit is called the "giver of life". The reason people need to be Christians in order to enjoy their experience of God after they are resurrected is that living as a Christian is living in a growing awareness of the presence of God. This is why Orthodox worship is experiential in nature (we "do" a lot of stuff) rather than so much rational. It is why the Jews' Passover was more than a mere recounting of past events; it was a participatory ritual. Interaction with God in this life is key. Union with God through Jesus Christ is absolutely essential in this life. "Getting ready" for heaven is seen as learning to walk with God and learning to love God as God actually is. Jeremiah | ||
| Asurprise Registered user Username: Asurprise Post Number: 724 Registered: 7-2007 |
Hec; The way I see it is genetics. God doesn't give a person a glorified body when their spirit is made alive, so their offspring would still have dead spirits. |
