| Author |
Message |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 9683
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 14, 2009 - 2:27 pm: |     |
Ha! So true, Adrian! And Ramone, I also appreciated your comments above about being helped to see needs in your life which you began to surrender to Him, and as you did so, you began to realize He was speaking to you.
That is SO true! I've experienced the same phenomenon...God's voice becomes more and more clear as I surrender the needs and fears and resistances and walled-off places where I've been hurt, etc. And as I give up my dreams, rights, and desires and surrender to Him and to knowing His will, I find that I do experience Him more.
It reminds me—again—of what Oswald Chambers said about insight following obedience. He said we learn more from five minutes of obedience than we learn from months of pondering a subject. God reveals Himself to us when/as we surrender to Him.
Colleen |
Hec
Registered user
Username: Hec
Post Number: 58
Registered: 3-2009
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 15, 2009 - 3:08 pm: | |
Hold on. Let me go and get my helmet. I get the heavier one, just in case.
OK. I'm back. Just don't hit me too hard in case the helmet won't stand it.
I think it's dangerous to equate speaking in tongues with the baptism of the Holy Spirit. Don't get me wrong here. I believe God can and may use speaking in tongues as he desires. What I think is dangerous is equating it with the baptism of the Holy Spirit.
What is it? Exempli gratia? OK. e.g.
One of those times I've been talking about when I was young. 18 to be exact. There was a pentecostal lady who was very sad, because for more that 40 years she had been asking God to baptize her in the Spirit. But she had never spoken in tongues, and therefore she thought she was not baptized. Oh, she had other gifts, alright, but not speaking in tongues.
Being the good SDA that I was, I took advantage of that, and convinced her that she did not need that and that the SDA church taught the correct thing by not accepting speaking in tongues as a current gift. That was comforting to her. Knowing that she could be a Christian and that she was baptized by the Spirit in spite of not speaking in tongues, brought her much needed relief. She left the pentecostal church and became a SDA. I'm not proud of that now. But therein lies the danger.
Hec |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 9694
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 15, 2009 - 7:24 pm: | |
No argument from me, Hec. I believe God gives many people the gift of tongues, but not everyone—at least not in the "classic" way of confirming the moment of "baptism".
But every believer will be given spiritual gift(s). And people do receive special baptisms or fillings of the Spirit for specific purposes, sometimes multiple times in a lifetime. We just can't say He "won't" or "must" work in certain ways. We have to let Him be God.
Colleen |
River
Registered user
Username: River
Post Number: 4573
Registered: 9-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, April 16, 2009 - 6:27 am: | |
Colleen,
Now you know I,m not one to argue.  And if you agree I have some beach front property to sell you just right outside of Phoenix. Beautiful place with the sea gulls wheeling over head.
But I have a real problem with your theory of multiple infillings and special baptisms.
Do we 'feel' Gods Spirit more at times than others? Most definitely.
Does the Holy Spirit come upon one when called upon to use the gifts? Without fail. Without him 'coming upon' one he could not possible function in at least some of the Spiritual gifts such as tongues and interpretations.
But along with these gifts comes a grave responsibility. The gift is there whether or not one is stubborn, or rebellious, or fearful and will not be removed even though the operation of them are at Gods place of choosing and timing, therefore the responsibility is always present.
Just as we at times feel that the Holy Spirit is far away, that does not mean he is far away.
At times one may feel that the gift has been removed because we have not been used in that gift for many years, does not mean that the gift nor the responsibility has been removed.
Once having received the Baptism in the Holy Ghost, it is forever, the baptism of the Holy Spirit is one baptism, it is done by Jesus as promised and will not be repeated.
There is no place in scripture in the new testament that I can think of where God recalls his gifts or his word. He is faithful even when we are not.
Now I know that so many times we have misunderstandings because of simply our inability to communicate Spiritual matters, but none of us wants to even accidentally and even without intention communicate wrong things or wrong ideas.
The reason I have such a hard time with multiple infilling and baptism is on account of Gods faithfulness, always faithful, no shadow of turning.
His faithfulness includes and is not exclusive of Spiritual gifts. While the Gifts of the Spirit as laid down in 1Cor,12:8-10 are gifts we are aware of simply because Gods word says they exist, we cannot say how this will appear to work each and every time.
Another subject, but along this line of thinking, for one to say that these gifts as laid down by Paul, is "Not for this day and time" is to directly deny the word of God, his word is forever, his words goes out and is not recalled and they will not return void, or voided by any declaration of man.
I cannot find in the Bible where it speaks of multiple infillings, nor multiple baptisms.
What I want to express here is Gods faithfulness more than an argument about your multiples.
Always faithful, always true, always in all weathers, down through the ages. Not 'iffy' not on and off, here today and gone tomorrow. He has been faithful to me, even when I have not been faithful to him and I mean that in the strongest sense of the word. Oh God, how undeserving, yet he has remained faithful.
The many years ago when he bestowed upon me the gift that goes with tongues and interpretations has never, ever, for not even one second, been removed and recalled. I realize my grave responsibility that goes along with this gift, to edify the body is real and always exist, the responsibility has also never been recalled.
I am so thankful that he has been so faithful and I know you are too.
We love to expound on the gifts, but what we never seem to get around to expounding on is the responsibility that goes along with these gifts.
That rather amazes me too, that, especially in Pentecostal circles the gifts are preached on so much, but never the grave responsibility that comes with those gifts, as if they are some kind of play toy, that we can get in Gods big sandbox and toss around.
At least most of us have some inkling of the grave responsibility that we take on when we get behind the wheel of a four thousand pound car. Yes, there is pleasure in driving, also a grave responsibility, and it is no different with the gifts of the Spirit.
Using this analogy, just because the car is in the driveway doesn't remove our name from the title or our responsibility, and when we get behind the wheel that responsibility just continues although it may be more acute at the time.
People, we need to watch about desiring gifts if we are not going to take up the responsibility that goes with them.
River |
Hec
Registered user
Username: Hec
Post Number: 63
Registered: 3-2009
| | Posted on Thursday, April 16, 2009 - 11:42 am: | |
River,
Is God limited to one "delivery"? In other words once God "infills" a person with the Spirit and a gift, is He limited to that one gift, or could He bestow another gift later on as He sees fit?
That's what I understand Colleen to be saying. Not necessarily sending the Holy Spirit multiple times, but rather sending gifts as/when He sees fit. He doesn't need to revoke a former gift to give you another. He could give several gifts at the same time, or one gift at a time over a period of years and still be the gifts of the Spirit. Am I wrong?
Hec |
Doc
Registered user
Username: Doc
Post Number: 351
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, April 16, 2009 - 2:59 pm: | |
Hi all,
Just to stick my oar in as well:
I think it is scriptural that a person is "baptised" in the Spirit just once, but as we "leak" we have to be filled repeatedly on subsequent occasions. My Biblical basis for that would be, exempla gratiae, Acts 4: 31, when, after prayer, the believers who had already been filled with the Spirit on an earlier occasion were filled once again, and Ephesians 5: 18, which exhorts believers who had already been filled, to keep on being filled with the Spirit - the Greek has a present continuous imperative here, which can be translated: keep on being filled continuously.
So I guess everyone is right to some extent (just being diplomatic now!)
AB |
Doc
Registered user
Username: Doc
Post Number: 352
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, April 16, 2009 - 3:31 pm: | |
The other point, thinking about Hec's experience, I was reminded how it is so easy to play "Bible ping-pong" with cultists, and get no-where. This could be JWs or SDAs, for example. they give you a verse which seems to support their teaching, then you give them one which confirms yours, then they give you another one...
and so on.
Well, I guess it is possible to do that with experiences as well. You relate an experience, based on which you have come to some conclusion regarding doctrine, so then I give you my experience, on the basis of which I come to a different conclusion...
So, not that I want to prove anything, but my own wife's experience was as follows:
She was converted while going through an extremely difficult time in her life, when, according to her, her choice was either to consider Jesus or commit suicide - she decided on the former (praise God!). One week later, completely alone in her room, she had a very powerful experience of the Holy Spirit, which she said was like a Champagne bottle popping inside, and being filled with joy and peace.
She did not, however, speak in tongues. As she was converted through a friend who attended a Pentecostal church, she was then prayed for many times over the years to receive BHS, and nothing happened, in fact, she felt worse after being prayed for than before it.
This went on for about five years. In the end, she did not even want to be prayed for any more.
Then she married me, and we moved to Wales. We started to attend the local Pentecostal church, and she went to a women's meeting held by the pastor's wife. She was told, at this first meeting, that if she did not speak in tongues, they would pray for her. She thought: no way, leave me alone. However, this particular lady explained to her that she had to just accept the gift by faith, open her mouth, and speak new words she had never learnt. She did precisely that, and from that day onwards, she was able to speak in tongues.
So - my conclusion, based on this experience and, I think, God's word too:
She received the Baptism in the Holy Spirit that day five years before, but was never counselled correctly as to what to do with it. She had the gift of a prayer language in her, but no-one could help her "bring it out" until five years later. But when things were explained to her properly, she spoke in tongues as she should have done at the beginning.
I think that is the explanation - I could be wrong, of course.
Not that I want to prove anything, or play "experience ping-pong", or fall out with anyone (may I should get the helmet too).
AB |
River
Registered user
Username: River
Post Number: 4578
Registered: 9-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, April 16, 2009 - 6:33 pm: | |
Well...I probably misunderstood what she meant in the first place.
Ain't nobody getting uptight, least ways I ain't and I doubt very much if Colleen is.
However, just in case she is, here is an aspirin, take two and call me in the morning.
Everything always looks better in the morning. or is it day after tomorrow?
River |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 9699
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, April 16, 2009 - 8:30 pm: | |
Hey, no aspirin needed, River!
My point was not, as Hec understood, to say God gives and takes away and gives again. I was only referring to the sorts of blessings or commissionings that happen when God blesses someone for a new ministry, or calls them to a new work of God.
We as Christians often lay hands on brothers and sisters who are going out into a special mission or work, and we ask God to especially bless and anoint them for the work. That is the sort of thing I meant. I don't believe God removes His gifts to us. I do believe He blesses us with new gifts as needed.
And on top of AlL this, separate from spiritual gifts, is the fruit of the Spirit which grows stronger and brighter in all Christ-followers as they mature in Jesus.
Coming from an Adventist background, the thing that most concerns me is that we not fear the Holy Spirit. We can completely trust God. He dwells in us, and He gives each one of us His gifts as He sees fit. We are uniquely gifted for His work and for the edification of His body.
We have no need to fear Him, and as long as we are immersing ourselves in Scripture, staying open and submitted to Him, He will reveal Himself and give us the ability to worship Him in spirit and in truth.
Paul said that the mystery hidden in past ages was the mystery of Christ dwelling in us, the hope of glory (Col 1:27). This indwelling Holy Spirit is what makes the New Covenant completely different from the old. It is amazing—the almighty God of Creation lives in our mortal flesh and gives us eternal life now—along with His power and His gifts for His glory. My goodness, what privilege and accountability we have!
We literally carry the presence of Jesus into the world we live in! We have absolutely no need to fear Him. He is trustworthy.
Colleen |
Jeremy
Registered user
Username: Jeremy
Post Number: 2700
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, April 16, 2009 - 8:34 pm: | |
Here is a verse that is full of meaning: "for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable." (Romans 11:29 NASB.)
Jeremy |
River
Registered user
Username: River
Post Number: 4581
Registered: 9-2006
| | Posted on Friday, April 17, 2009 - 5:02 am: | |
I love the depth of his wisdom God has given you Colleen, I wish I had at least a portion of it.
I have the passion without the wisdom, the depth of feeling without the understanding, but then God does give us different gifts and callings doesn't he?
I suppose that if we were all alike we would bore each other to death.
I know I bore some to death all by myself (no help needed with that).
Thanks so much for that scripture Jere, that is more or less what I had on my mind. If I had remembered the scripture I could have just given that and been done with it.
All ya'll are such a blessing to me.
River |
Agapetos
Registered user
Username: Agapetos
Post Number: 1873
Registered: 10-2002
| | Posted on Friday, April 17, 2009 - 5:57 am: | |
You know, River, each person has something from God and is part of God, and each person has something to share from God. This is what Paul means in 1st Corinthians 14:26 that "all of these things must be done [shared]" for the edification of the body -- for the strenthening of the body. One of the reasons so many Christians and churches feel or seem weak, I think, is because people aren't actively exercising what God's given them -- and most people don't realize God has given them something. The whole set-up of "church" as we know it doesn't really facilitate everyone sharing what God gives, so we've got to find ways to truly fellowship with one another and create opportunities to let God share His stuff in and through us amongst our times together.
As we do that, we get a bigger & better picture of His grace in our midst. Like Hebrews 2:12 says, He will sing praises to Father in our midst! But we don't usually expect that He'll show up, so we don't make room for Him to do that. We don't expect that as 1st Corinthians 14 says, that He will give things to people, so we don't give people the opportunities to share. One person does most of the talking, sharing, and "feeding". And everyone else is generally silent.
What I've found at times when people could share -- and this is mainly at prayer groups, coffee shops or even on the train or walking -- is that something happens like a game of ping-pong (to use it in a different way than Adrian did, haha!). It's like I get one bit, and then you get another bit, and then another person gets another bit, and whatever He's sharing with us just bounces back and forth between us becoming stronger and clearer, and you can feel His Spirit just stirring up things in us and bringing revelation & understanding, and it's just wonderful. He is just wonderful, even in our midst.
Oh, what was I going to say -- yes, River, what you said about envying Colleen's ability to say things (she does have an awesome ability to really sum up things with a few choice words, well-expressed! --whereas I write a long & winding dissertation!)... it reminded me of my friend who often had a visual gift of discernment(seeing angels & spirits & visions). Naturally I envied that, but later on he admitted to me that he was actually jealous of me. He said he got to see a lot of things, but I got to understand a lot of things. He didn't always understand what he saw. I got interpretation to a lot of things, but didn't visually see, so I had always been wanting that. Bizarre. But fun.
Everyone's got something. And more wonderful than what you have is what you are. You are valuable not only because of what God's given you, but because of who you are. You are so beloved and loveable that God gave His Son for you. You are worth knowing! You are worth loving! You are worth spending time with! You are worth getting to know! Your "contribution" to the body is not merely your "gifts" and what you can do or give, but rather your heart is a gift to all of us. You yourself are a treasure from God.
Bless you in Jesus!
Ramone |
Brian3
Registered user
Username: Brian3
Post Number: 207
Registered: 8-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 21, 2009 - 7:44 am: | |
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You don't want to miss hearing this remarkable story of one of the most monumental events in modern-day Christendom! TELL YOUR FRIENDS & LOVED ONES! PASS THIS EMAIL ON!!! |
Doc
Registered user
Username: Doc
Post Number: 362
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, April 25, 2009 - 9:35 am: | |
Ramone / Agapetos!
You asked above about if my study is on line, and then you didn't e-mail me. Well, I have made an attempt at starting a blog, and I will put this study up first. Sorry, I am still not very good at negotiating this e-world. Anyway, I was at a conference the other day, to do with my language teaching, and they explained how to start a free blog - so, here is the first bit:
http://athb4hu.wordpress.com/category/theological-musings/gifts-of-the-holy-spirit/ |
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