| Author | Message | ||
| Jrt Registered user Username: Jrt Post Number: 256 Registered: 10-2008 |
I am needing some direct quotes and concrete "evidence" to show that though Adventists will say that Jesus is the Son of God - they do not see Him as fully God - or Divine. I know that there have been previous threads . . . And I'm wondering if Jeremy has a "sheet" that I can print off. I am trying to educate an Evangelical who teaches about cults in a church. He has told me that JW and Mormons are much worse than SDA's. Yet, I believe that Adventists are much more damaging based on the deceptiveness of the teachings. . . they will say Jesus is the Son of God, but call Him Michael the Archangel, etc. This is why Adventists also don't have a great handle on the gospel - because they don't fully understand that Jesus is fully God. Any help is much appreciated. And your prayers are solicited too - this gentleman really needs to understand Adventism (he thinks he does, because he always mentions the IJ - as if he's knowledgeable - and he said he's met many SDA's who are believers . . . ). So he and I need prayers  . Thanks, Keri P.S. Is there also an EGW quote that shows that SDA's believe that Jesus has "permanently" taken on humanity? Evangelicals - don't believe that, do they? They say that Jesus has a resurrected body - but is that permanent? Jesus is "spirit" even now - isn't He? He is omnipresent even now, isn't He? That is how I'm beginning to understand things. | ||
| 8thday Registered user Username: 8thday Post Number: 814 Registered: 11-2007  |
I do remember being taught that Jesus was changed forever when He took on human form - that from that moment on, He was limited and not omni everything like before. I remember not long ago having a light bulb moment listening to our pastor teach on the Divinity of Christ - how it was never at any time lessened, and I realized, I had always had a false picture of who Christ was in the flesh, and who He is now. I had the "lesser God" mentality although I had never verbalized that our acknowledged it. I know there has been alot posted here on this, but I don't know where it is now either. Looking forward to a recap! =) Sondra | ||
| Seekinglight Registered user Username: Seekinglight Post Number: 55 Registered: 3-2009 |
I don't know if this is a quote that will help: Patriarchs and Prophets (1890), page 64, The angels prostrated themselves at the feet of their Commander and offered to become a sacrifice for man. But an angel's life could not pay the debt; only He who created man had power to redeem him. Yet the angels were to have a part to act in the plan of redemption. Christ was to be made "a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death." Hebrews 2:9. As He should take human nature upon Him, His strength would not be equal to theirs, and they were to minister to Him, to strengthen and soothe Him under His sufferings. They were also to be ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who should be heirs of salvation. Hebrews 1:14. They would guard the subjects of grace from the power of evil angels and from the darkness constantly thrown around them by Satan. Looks as if she's using Heb. 2 "lower than the angels" statement for her justification. | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 4467 Registered: 9-2006  |
Quote he said he's met many SDA's who are believers . . . ). First of all, if the guy fools around with cults he needs some good old fashioned Holy Ghost discernment. I've yet to meet an SDA who is a believer, Oh they believe something all right enough, everybody believes something, so what? If he listens to their Christian sounding jargon and comes to the conclusion that he has met a Christian, that right there tell's me he is sadly short on discernment. I think he needs prayer worse that you do Keri. Thats my own unbiased opinion. But....opinions are like donkey dooky, they're all over the place. River | ||
| Bskillet Registered user Username: Bskillet Post Number: 251 Registered: 8-2008 |
They teach that Jesus emptied Himself of Divinity when He became human (based on a misinterpretation of some of the Pauline corpus). This is based on the pagan Greek concept of divinity that SDAs have unwittingly accepted, that sees divinity as a sort of property a being possesses. I.E., a being can possess divinity like I possess the attribute of having brown hair, and that being can lose divinity just like I can shave my head or go bald. This is not at all the Biblical/Jewish view of divinity that the Bible writers have. Divinity is a being, Yawheh. That is the definition of divinity. This Divinity Himself has several attributes, but He is not a member class of many objects called "divine." This is what the schema means: "Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one" (Deut. 6:4). And "I am the LORD, and there is no other; apart from me there is no God" (Is. 45:5). Adventism teaches that the Trinity is composed not of one being with three persons, or hypostasis, but of three beings (there are several quotes from SDAs to show this, particularly EGW's reference to Father, Son, and Spirit as "the Heavenly Trio"). Thus, each of them has the quality or property of being Divine, but this quality is separate from the property of Divinity in others. Hence the debate within Adventism of whether or not Jesus' Divinity died on the cross, a question which, to an orthodox Christian, is preposterous, because it would imply that God no longer exists. Thus, Jesus can have the property of Divinity, but not be co-equal with God. Consequently, He could theoretically sin, in their view, and wasn't really as big or important as the Father. I remember reading Colossians 1 as I was transitioning out of SDAism and realizing this high view of Jesus was nothing I had ever been exposed to before. There is a quote I read from EGW where she says that Jesus was not as full a representation of God's character as the 10 C's, for instance. | ||
| Seekinglight Registered user Username: Seekinglight Post Number: 56 Registered: 3-2009 |
Bskillet, thank you for your clarifications. I was wondering if you could direct me to some info. regarding how to accurately interpret Hebrews 2 in regard to Jesus' divinity. | ||
| Jrt Registered user Username: Jrt Post Number: 257 Registered: 10-2008 |
Seekinglight, Thanks for the PP quote . . . excellent! River, you always make me laugh! I need God's words and wisdom as I try to communicate with this gentleman about Adventism. I really need the Holy Spirit to filter my words and I need an extra dose of humility. Bskillet thanks for the insight. Seeinglight here is some notes and a study on Hebrews which will include Hebrews 2: http://www.formeradventist.com/hebrews.html Thanks, Keri | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 2654 Registered: 10-2004  |
You're right, Bskillet. When Adventism says that "Jesus is God," they just mean that He shares the name "God"--not that He is actually God Himself! Keri,
Yes, those statements are true. But they were also true while He was on earth, with a human body. It doesn't mean that He can't have a human body and be fully human. He does still have His resurrected, glorified body and is still fully human--and this will be true forever. If it weren't true the Bible couldnt' say that He is "alive forevermore" (Revelation 1:18 NASB) and that He "is never to die again" (Romans 6:9 NASB). (Plus humans can't just cease to exist like Adventism taught us--human souls continue to exist, even if the body dies). At the same time, He is also fully God (the infinite divine Spirit who is outside time and space and is eternally omnipresent). But He is forever fully human. Keri, send me an email at whitemountainchat@yahoo.com and I'll see what quotes I can gather to send to you. Jeremy | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 2655 Registered: 10-2004 |
The Hebrews 2 verse is simply speaking of His "taking the form of a bond-servant" (Philippians 2:7 NASB) when He came to earth. It is not denying that He remained fully God, at the same time. Jeremy | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 2656 Registered: 10-2004 |
And actually, the context in the Hebrews 2 verse indicates that it is speaking more specifically of His death. And as Philippians 2 says: "Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross." (Philippians 2:8 NASB). Jeremy (Message edited by Jeremy on April 01, 2009) | ||
| Seekinglight Registered user Username: Seekinglight Post Number: 57 Registered: 3-2009 |
Keri, thanks for the Hebrews study link. Wow, what a treasure trove! I have enough study material to last me for a long while. | ||
| Seekinglight Registered user Username: Seekinglight Post Number: 58 Registered: 3-2009 |
....and thank you Jeremy for your help, also. I feel like EGW doctrines have wound a million tentacles around my mind & heart. They are embedded so deeply and affect every aspect of my feelings, my thinking, and my reading & interpretation of scripture. Every time I remove one of the nasty buggers, it seems like I discover others that need removal. | ||
| Jrt Registered user Username: Jrt Post Number: 259 Registered: 10-2008 |
Seekinglight, Your SO not alone! I feel the tentacles, too. Yet, they are being removed!! The chains of misunderstanding are falling off one by one. And we both know, without a shadow of a doubt, that we were dead in our trespasses - spiritually dead. And it is the grace of our LORD that has made us alive!! Nothing can ever steal that from us - even these nasty tentacles that pop up. Blessings, Keri | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 6712 Registered: 3-2004  |
Just remember that those tenacles are DEAD. It does not take much to remove them as the little suckers are dead also. God has made you alive and nothing can kill us now. Wow, God, You are so awesome. Diana L | ||
| Martin Registered user Username: Martin Post Number: 50 Registered: 11-2008 |
Did she really say that? Didn't know about it... The only thought that comes to my mind is that it's horrible, especially because Jesus Himself says that whoever has seen Him, has seen the Father. In these last days, derived from the thread on cultic art, I have been reading quite a bit on former JW sites and seeing all the similitudes made me think more seriously about the more than possible cultic character of adventism... It isn't something easy to swallow, but the idea about it is, somehow, slowly forming in my head. The first thing that came to my mind after reading about that quote was precisely that... It was like a confirmation. That is, in my opinion, a clear example of EGW adding or distorting the Gospel: she's putting the Law (The 10 C's) higher than Jesus. By the way, if possible, I'd like to read that quote to have it somewhere around. Just in case there's need to use it anytime. (Message edited by martin on April 01, 2009) (Message edited by martin on April 01, 2009) | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 4469 Registered: 9-2006 |
It may not be easy to swallow Martin, but its spirit driven and spirit blinding and it's not the sort of spirit you would like to run up on in a dark ally. It's not driven by flesh and blood or ignorance. That's why you can't just go in there and re-educate them in proper theological concepts. I think what happens when you go in there on your own and start preaching the gospel is that spirit that drives it immediately sets of conflict within that person, they then become uncomfortable when that spirit kicks up in them. They then feel like you are attacking them, when what it is, that spirit that controls and drives them is kicking up a fuss. It kicks up a fuss because it does not want to be uncovered or its territory invaded, that's where it lives, in deception. That's why Jesus made this statement, Matthew 12:29 "Or how can one enter a strong man's house and plunder his goods, unless he first binds the strong man? And then he will plunder his house. Jesus was,t kidding. You go in there and try to plunder the people themselves, then I believe you are approaching it from the wrong direction, the people themselves have been taken captive by this spirit and they are just the slaves who have been ordered to make bricks without straw. Captive to the grinding mill of the law, the go round and round like Sampson, having had their eyes put out. They are harnessed to the grinding mills of Adventism. While I believe it is true that there are leaders as well as some followers who have sunk to the point to where they know Adventism is not right, yet teach it and revel in it as well, having their conscience seared over by ignoring the Holy Spirits pleadings, for the most part the people are just hapless slaves and desperately need deliverance, their blind eyes opened. When the miracle happens its like you are in a dark room and someone turns on a bright light and exposes the cockroaches crawling everywhere. While the room is totally dark the person can’t see the insidious bugs crawling everywhere, but the minute the light is turned on he starts whopping bugs, stomping bug, and goes brrrr there bugs all over the place. That’s what its like for Adventist, they are in a dark, cock roach infested room, just groping around. I am just trying to use an imaginary room to explain a spiritual situation. When Jesus came along the spirit always set up a fuss, and when a Christian come along with the Spirit of God living in him, they set up a fuss. A lot of formers don’t know why their families get all wrought up around them because the former is ignorant of the spiritual world around him so they allow this to hurt their feelings. But it’s the Holy Spirit in them and moves with them that causes the family member to get wrought up and disturbed. Not realizing this, the former takes it personally and get their feeling hurt. It hurts, all too true, but then they need to realize the source where it’s coming from. I guess what I am saying is to realize the spiritual connotations that exist even though we cannot see it. Its not harmless and it is real. River | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 9609 Registered: 12-2003  |
River, you are absolutely right on in your post above. Absolutely. Adventism isn't merely misinformation; it is driven by a blinding, deceiving spirit. Martin, we have some former JW friends who say our experience is so similar to their experience it's uncanny. They enjoy time with us in the same way we former SDAs need time with each other because we have nearly identical experiences of being rescued from a dark, deceiving spiritual bondage that totally messed with our world view. Developing a biblical world view after Adventism just takes time. The tentacle metaphor is so apt! I firmly believe that pretty much all Adventists (I can't be totally adamant about this because I can't statistically prove it, but I believe it experientially) have a misperception of who Jesus is. The organization has made a careful point to ID Him publicly in a typically Christian way, but inside, every Adventist I know, from historic to evangelical, sees Jesus as less than GOD and sees Him as somehow more human than divine, potentially fallible, pretty much just like them. If Jesus is wrong, soteriology is wrong. One can't actually know and embrace the gospel and retain the diminished Adventist view of Jesus. If a person meets the real Jesus, he or she will find himself compelled to move toward Him--and away from Adventism. If Adventism seems like too much to lose, that person will be giving in not to the Holy Spirit but to the deceiving spirit of Adventism. Colleen | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 4471 Registered: 9-2006 |
Thats whats happening to Seekinglight and JRT, The lights got turned on and they are finding they have been living with bugs. It's kind of comical, seekinglight is stomping bugs like crazy! I can be amused by all this because I know Jesus is in charge of the bug stomping and he will protect these two. Praise God! When a former goes to stomping bugs I get a smile on my face. River | ||
| Jrt Registered user Username: Jrt Post Number: 261 Registered: 10-2008 |
OK, I'm having a moment here . . . I have been attending a "Sunday" Church for 7 months now and seriously studying 2 months before that. There is something I'm picking up that I'm going to try to articulate. It seems like the biggest question Evangelicals have about Adventism is, "Are they saved? Do they believe that Jesus is the Son of God and died for their sins?" If an Adventist can answer yes, to those two questions then Evangelicals will say leave them alone (Who cares what day they worship on?). That is the impression I get. Just yesterday, my neighbor asked me if I thought SDA's were saved (I gave them Truth about Adventist Truth to read - they are Methodist). I mentioned that no one can make that judgement - except God, BUT my sense was that most were not based on their faulty understanding of Jesus and how "works" come into play in their ideas about eternal life and salvation. I also shared about SDA's not understanding the new birth - and being spiritually dead (since SDA's don't understand what "spirit" is). I know I'm rambling, but may I share one other thing. Last night I was looking through some books - EGW and SDA commentaries (I keep them in the garage right now ) And one of the SDA commentaries v. 7 spent a whole page extolling that Jesus was fully God. Unfortunately, this was a page referenced by a former and I was checking the source - the "former" had taken the reference out of context to prove that SDA's don't believe Jesus as divine (they used the reference very wrongly and didn't use the full sentence it came from!). That threw me for a loop. Then I checked a reference from the same "former" in a Testimony volume (EGW) and sure enough EGW basically lowered Jesus' divinity. I felt like I had just received mental whiplash. What frustrated me was the "former" had taken the first reference out of context to prove a point. That made me think - who can I ever trust to give a straight argument or reference! (The former was NOT Jeremy . . . I'm just not using the name until I can speak/email them) SO, (after my tirade ) . . . How do you share WITH evidence that SDA's really don't understand salvation and Jesus' divinity? - Because Evangelicals really don't seem to be bothered by much else (big judgment generalization, I know). Faulty soteriology is the only way I see SDA's ever being able to be labeled a "cult". Therefore, identifying how SDA's are faulty in their doctrine of salvation is important. Keri | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 2657 Registered: 10-2004 |
Keri, Could you post the reference (page and paragraph) of the EGW quote you are referring to, that the former took out of context? Thanks! I've said this before, but I've noticed that with EGW, it's sometimes "necessary" (well, easier at least)--although I'm not in the habit of doing it myself--to take her "out of context" in order to show what she was really saying, as a lot of times she is just using her additional words to try to "cover up" what she is really saying and confuse and deceive people (there's those "deceitful spirits"--1 Tim. 4 again!). Sometimes, no matter what the additional context is, it can't take away from the blasphemy in the other part of the quote. But I'm not saying that it is impossible to actually take her out of context (which, of course, we should not do, especially if we want to maintain credibility)! Jeremy |
