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| Agapetos Registered user Username: Agapetos Post Number: 1803 Registered: 10-2002  |
This is a continuation of a discussion MartinC and I were having on this thread. What follows are the original posts (which I've moved here)... | ||
| Agapetos Registered user Username: Agapetos Post Number: 1804 Registered: 10-2002 |
I had answered (in part), Replying, MartinC commented:
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| Agapetos Registered user Username: Agapetos Post Number: 1805 Registered: 10-2002 |
In replying, I ended up writing something longer which I made into an article on my art blog. I've edited the original post a little. What follows is as it appears on my blog here: Breaking the Boundaries of Christian Art On the Former Adventist Forum yesterday I noted on a thread that Adventists, Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses have a lot of very similar art which requires great skill in painting realism, but is often kind of dead otherwise. A brother replied and shared a quote: I replied that I'd first realized the dryness of "Christian art" when a friend ran a blog series that compared similarities in Christian art with propagandic art (such as seen in Cuba, the former Soviet Union, and in Nazi Germany). The realism style is the same, and also the very "pious" looks of upstanding, clean figures and near-utopic scenes. The implications of this are very frightening -- well, at least they ought to be sobering, I think. At the first it would indicate that there is a lack of imagination --- but that itself is a fruit, not the root. The root of that would be that there is a strict communal "vision" and everyone--including foremost the artists--must bend to set their sights on that same vision. People cannot envision things beyond what the communal vision has dictated. The bar is set, paradise defined, "God" defined. By the way, I guess you'd noted that I said "Christian art" above instead of just the specific cultic groups... because generally, it is true of most "Christian" art as well. The art of the "Christian cults" (SDA, LDS, JW) is generally drier than regular Christian, but regular Christian is also commonly dry as well. The "Christian Cult" art has an added element, though: it tries to depict the apocalyptic and it's interpretations of the apocalyptic... and it usually comes across very dry, 1950ish, and crazed-looking. This, by the way, is perhaps the one common trait in the three "Christian Cults" that just screams "CULT!" the loudest. In general Christian art, however, the bar is still set and the product still dry. It's a sort of industry that demands a regular product -- Biblical scenes in oil-painting realism, generally brightly lit, with soft green grass and light blue colors. Occasionally people are still clad in 1950s formal wear. Sometimes people look more modern, but an odd thing happens then... they often look like 1950s people wearing modern clothes! It's a mystery to me... but I think this means that there is a sort of "rut" that Christian art got stuck in somewhere along the line. I spoke of it being like an industry or factory, and that's true for Catholic art as well, which once used to produce beautiful, stunning works of art, but today churns out things equally dry as that in 1950s American protestantism. I think one of the reasons that Catholic art had been so great in the past was simply because it grew in an age where the arts were still experimental, and artists were really pushing the envelope -- even though today their works look "classic" and "standard", in fact in their day they were pushing the boundaries. That, and it should be noted that many of the artists simply painted biblical scenes so as to not lose the approval of the state churches. They painted and experimented with technique, style and realism, but made it "Christian art" sometimes simply because they wanted to (1) make a living, and (2) not get in trouble for what their paintings depicted. This in turn highlights one of the problems that limits expression & imagination -- the fear of getting something theologically wrong or getting judged for it by the rest of the church. Whereas in the art of the Catholic church's heyday you had an actual church authority looming over you & your works should they step out of line with the institution's vision, today you have (in evangelical Protestantism) a sort of theological standard of judgment. People habitually look with eyes of judgment, especially at the arts ("music" gets this ungraceful treatment the worst). It's strange... I didn't realize this when I started writing, but the lack of grace in the church seems to have a direct affect on the amount of creative art produced (this, in turn, reflects the degree to which people feel comfortable expressing their true selves and being themselves "in church"). Perhaps the most famous example of this is Vincent van Gogh, who had a soul that wanted to be a minister and identify with common people, but who was rebuked by the church establishment for not looking dignified enough. He would paint later on and portray common people, and would put in subtle things of his faith here and there. But at other times, there would be subtle hints of the ungrace that the church exuded... an open Bible with a candle next to it that's flame had been snuffed out... a beautiful starry night and lit-up town with a darkened church at its center. While Van Gogh's run-in with the church's ungrace happened before he made his great paintings, nonetheless it still shows that he was one of many who have not found the environment of the church to be supportive of artistic expression. (One good article here, and another good one here). Of course, in saying all these things, the obvious irony is that I am a "Christian artist" too and it might look like I'm criticizing others' work and trumpeting my own. Hah! No. I don't have a lot of skill as far as artists go, and I'm still looking for my stride, so to speak. I am not yet as disciplined as many artists are and as an artist should be. And more important than these things about me, there really are a lot of very good Christian artists out there who don't paint dry, lifeless Biblical scenes. And there are even a few who paint Biblical scenes that have life in them. However on the whole, these kinds of quality artists' works are not the rule, but the exception. And of course, a lot of "art" is subjective. But nonetheless, it's good to soberly recognize that when Christian art resembles the propagandic art of dictators, something is indeed wrong. The thing that turned my "art" world upside down was meeting the Holy Spirit. Prior to that, I couldn't see any way of painting anything other than dry Biblical scenes. (I wrote about this a bit here). And I think that might be kind of a sort of key to this... that our degree of expression and creativity is often proportional to our degree of comfortability with the moving of the Holy Spirit in us and among us. I think this is why some of the most beautiful Christian art in modern times comes out of charismatic churches -- not only art, but also music, dance, and other forms of expression. Christians with artistic desires are often unable to see beyond the common "vision" of the "Christian life" that is set before them in church. And then the environment of suspicion towards the arts and the environment of ungrace that lashes out at people who slip... this keeps people down, not only in the arts, but regular people who can't be themselves. They are told to aim to "be like Christ", but the image of Christ is not the living Christ -- it's precisely that, an image that was painted somewhere between the late 1700s, nurtured in the 1800s, and painted in the 1950s. The kind of art that is allowable -- art that can be "endorsed", seen as being "right", or suitable to "be a blessing" -- is often as narrowed and constrictive as the theology of cessationism itself (mind you, sometimes I really want to say "the heresy of cessationism"), which limits God's talking to Bible study. I think we'll see art & artists & church members comfortable with creativity & expression only as we get in touch with the living God Himself -- not in touch with a theology, but with the living, communicating God Himself. And when we begin to suck up His grace a lot more for one another, for ourselves, and for the world. | ||
| Agapetos Registered user Username: Agapetos Post Number: 1806 Registered: 10-2002 |
MartinC then replied: And to that, I now reply today... Yes, here we are, on a new thread for this subject! I thought of maybe making it a "member's area", but then on the other hand, it does connect to that "cultic" feel of traditional Adventist art. As an example, just today I was looking at this little Dwight Nelson booklet that a friend had given me, with one picture of Jesus on the cover in Gethsemane... but somehow still looking wooden or cultic. The booklet itself doesn't have many problems in it really, except for two or three Desire of Ages quotes (not the worst ones in the book by any means) and just being sort of generally unfocused. But the cover and lack of life in it --and in the pages of the book-- just give it a very culty feel, and 1950s feel, oddly enough. Most of the book was Christian and not "Adventist", but I really lamented how I just have to be on guard about that, you know? I couldn't just relax looking at it, because I knew Adventist things/ideas might suddenly get inserted. Oddly, what I notice about it now is that it tries to preach Christ and His suffering, looking at it in wonder and appreciation, but strangely enough it was very mechanical. It was kind of like how as Adventists we tried to get excited about Sabbath, tried to make ourselves happy it was here, tried to enjoy nature and so on. Like a missionary I once knew who had a vegan apple pie for his birthday and tried to convince himself it was delicious (ever had pie without butter?). In a way that kind of describes a lot of the traditional "Christian" art, and especially that of the "Christian cults" (LDS, JW, SDA)... pictures of Christ, His life, suffering and majesty which are all meant to be powerful and moving, but which just fall short. They feel mechanical somehow. Like you've got all the right strokes, the right realism, the right "scene", and you put it together and... and... and it's just not got life in it. To me, this is actually reflective of getting a lot of times when we try to doctrines "right" and assemble all the "right pieces" so that we are a true Christian church, a biblical people, believing in the Bible and doing only what is biblical... and yet it may still have no life in it. We can construct our systematic system, our spiritual "house", and yet there may be no life in it. The Spirit is life. Without Him, we are screwed! I don't know where to wrap-up this post, but in closing I'll share something that shatters me and reduces me to the "one thing" that is needful: One of my old art professors told us that anyone can learn to draw, anyone can learn technique. But that doesn't make it "art". Really, "art" is not about drawing. It is about seeing. In his awesome little novel, The Great Divorce, C.S. Lewis told the story of an artist condemned to hell but who visited heaven for one day, but was upset because he had forgotten to bring his painting materials. He really wanted to paint what he saw, but the people he met in heaven wanted him to let go of his desire to paint (for the time being) and just learn to enjoy what he was looking at instead. That is really like all of us sometimes! The joy of seeing Jesus, staring into His face and being loved by Him, can often be lost when we attempt to re-construct it, paint it, organize it part by part, and "represent" it correctly. This happens most often and is most dangerous in the world of theology, the "study of God", where we can subtly become more preoccupied with "painting God" and "representing Him correctly" than with actually interacting with Him, lavishing love on Him and receiving His lavish love. It's especially easy to fall into this if you've come out of error -- like us Former Adventists! Having discovered the error & the truth, we can get easily preoccupied with that, absorbed with it, enamoured with it, and even lost in it. The art of "painting", the art of "theology", studying about God and getting all the "lines" correct -- it can make us forget the joy of simply seeing, the joy of simply looking God in the face and being with Him. I'd better just do that now. Bless you all in Jesus! Ramone | ||
| Philharris Registered user Username: Philharris Post Number: 1479 Registered: 5-2007  |
Ramone, Steve Pitcher, in his introductory commentary on the current SDA Quarterly, makes an interesting comment on the Quarterly Cover picture. In the scene, which is very much in the nature you are describing concerning modern Christian art, several of the people are looking in the direct Jesus is pointing with only one person looking at the Savior. You can go to the commentary for Steve's full commentary at this link: http://www.biblestudiesforadventists.com/2009/quarter2/sabbathschoolintro.html Here's a short quote:
I have a similar painting hung over my computer desk which is coming down right now. I too must look to Jesus Christ, not in some mythical cultic direction. Until pointed out by Steve and your own comments, I didn't understand what it was about this painting that made me feel uncomfortable. Now I know. Thank you each for your insight. Phil | ||
| Agapetos Registered user Username: Agapetos Post Number: 1808 Registered: 10-2002 |
Hi Phil, Thanks for sharing that. I hadn't seen that cover before. I think Steve hit it exactly. Maybe five years ago at my grandmother's house in Phoenix, I came across a laminated picture of that common oil-paint realism style (somehow always so reminiscint of the 1950s or 60s!). It depicted Jesus and the Ten Commandments. With the usual "kind & caring" expression on His face, He was gesturing towards the tablets the way that Hannah White would have displayed prizes on Wheel of Fortune. The caption below read, "Jesus' way to life -- the Ten Commandments." It was only because I had been led out of Adventism by the Spirit and then led into studying the covenants that I could be rightly disturbed by the picture's completely inaccurate and distorted message. Jesus the New Covenant pointing to the Tablets of the Old Covenant as "the way to life"! (If the author of Hebrews were in soul sleep, he would be rolling over in his grave!) As Steve pointed out, Jesus Himself is the Way. And still more wonderfully, He is also THE LIFE. That awesome book by Bob George, Classic Christianity, points out how Jesus doesn't call us to "live the Christian life", instead He calls us to live the exchanged life! He has lived the perfect life for us. We don't need to do it again, but rather accept His life instead of our own. My life is dead! I am dead now, and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me! I live now by faith in Him. The kind of "life" we are asked to live now is a life of love (Ephesians 5:1-2), living as dearly loved children of God. Not as slaves, but as sons. We're not under the schoolmaster anymore; we are not slaves who sing that "we have this hope" of one day entering the Master's house. No, rather have already been bought, purchased and brought in, in Jesus Christ His Son. We have been adopted into the Master's house. As John said, "Now we are the sons of God." We get to look up to Daddy and be like Him, be with Him, look up to Him and learn from Him without being worried about losing our sonship. We have already been bought and purchased! It is from that position of sonship --accepted and saved-- that we can be free to live a holy life, which becomes a life free from the control of the sinful passions and a life of love for other people. But our "holy life" is not what makes us perfect. Rather, We are being made holy, going from glory to glory, but yet we already have been made holy, already perfected forever in Jesus Christ because of and by His perfect body's sacrifice. Our perfect holiness is not based on us, but rather is a credited perfection, a credited holiness, a credited righteousness (Rom.4:24)... given to us as a free gift. An exchange. Anyway, I'm getting carried away, and I know you know all these things already! Ha!  What Steve insightfully wrote is true, though, that this is the hallmark of all false religion: that it points to something in Jesus' name as "His way" for us, but not to Jesus Himself as THE way. And this is the very revealing, fundamental problem in the way that Adventism has misinterpreted/abused Revelation 19:10. In context the angel was telling John not to worship him (an angelos, a messenger), because all prophecy points to Jesus Himself as the Way. Adventism (and other cultic "Christianities") take the figure & name of Jesus and have Him say that "this knowledge" is what He wants you to know, and "this commandment" is what He wants you to do. (Such "knowledge" is what is meant by "Jezebel's deep secrets" in Revelation 2, adding burdens on us that Christ has not placed). They use His image and name like a sort of authoritative stamp of approval for what they believe is the most important thing to know and do. They use "Jesus" as the spokesperson for their own religion. In contrast, a "prophet" or "messenger" or "angel" of God is a spokesperson for God, not the other way around. God is not the authoritative stamp for the prophet's directions! The true prophet is one whom God is speaking through, who is not speaking of or for himself/herself. "Prophets" who use God's name to add authority to their pet doctrines are disobeying the biblical command to honor & respect God's name; they are taking His name in vain -- abusing His name -- misrepresenting Him in word and in deed, attributing things to Him which He has not spoken and exhibiting a nature which is not His own. (My goodness, we should realize that that commandment wasn't about four-letter words at all!) All false religion uses Jesus to show their "way to righteousness", but true religion proclaims that Jesus Christ Himself is our righteousness, and in fact that it is His very name! -- In His 33 years of life and in the 3 & 1/2 years of His ministry, we have all been saved! Jerusalem, Judah and Israel's salvation has already been accomplished in the earthly days of the Messiah. Salvation, safety, justice, wisdom... is all in Jesus Christ, given to us all in His perfect life lived on our behalf. Hallelu YAH!!! Bless you in Jesus! Ramone (Message edited by agapetos on March 30, 2009) | ||
| Helovesme2 Registered user Username: Helovesme2 Post Number: 1887 Registered: 8-2004  |
Just had a mental picture of the ten commandments and the scrolls of the prophets laid out in such a way (or held by Moses and the prophets in such a way) as to point to Jesus - perhaps while standing in His shadow, with His back to them (as God showed Moses His back on the Mount). And then in front of Jesus have people from all times and walks of life AD looking at and pointing to Jesus as well. I wish I could do it justice! | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 4461 Registered: 9-2006  |
Hi Ramone, This thread is of interest to me and I would like to widen the view to encompass yet another element of Christian art and pull it along side the ones you mentioned which was paintings and music. That is the Art of the Christian writer and all that was said applies especially to the writer of Christian fiction. I belong to a group of Christian artist for this venue. A discussion breaks out about as often as a discussion on the Sabbath breaks out on here. The only difference between the Christian fiction writer and a painter or a musician is the medium of expression. I realize this because I have painted and created music also. The ACWA rules the roost and oversees Christian publishing and they have it bolted down tight. The conversation in the group I am currently affiliated with always turns to acceptable language. Under the rules of the ACWA a writer is throttled down to the point where every story he writes will be dry and without the element of human reality. In other words, the writers language has to be acceptable to the church or it wont be published through any well known publishing house. I am here to tell you bro, my stories would never, ever be accepted by them for publishing. It doesnt matter that every one of my stories has a message of grace and of a caring and loving God. I have found that since beginning to write Christian fiction, that the Christian fiction writer and the former Adventist has something in common, we are like the common cold, nobody wants us! All I do differently than you in your art is that I paint pictures in words. And if I went the ACWA way my writing would seem wooden and my characters would seem unrealistic caricatures of someones particular idea of what theology looks like. There is no use in me writing all this as it wont change a thing, but Im just here to tell you a snowball in hell will freeze over before I go and butcher my characters up to please a durn bunch of prudes (or prunes) which may be more like it. Life happens and I depict it according to the gift that has been placed within me and without apology. Hang in there Bro. If you would like to see my book e-mail me and I will ship you one clean over the pond at no cost to you and thats fer my good bro. Your thread here is much appreciated. River | ||
| Christo Registered user Username: Christo Post Number: 116 Registered: 2-2008 |
I have had this mental picture of a person walking towards Jesus, Jesus facing us, giving off light,the person,walking towards Jesus showing his back to us, and in his shadow is the law. This has been my image of shadows of things to come. Unless I want to get a siff neck , I cannot keep turning my head around all the time to look at whats in my shadow.Its much more pleasant to look towards Christ. The imagery that the words shadow, and stiffnecked portray are so profound. Another image would be a grim faced person walking away from Jesus, and in his shadow would be the law which he was walking towards. This person is only interested in the things that point to Christ, not Christ himself. Its interesting, if you move your finger closer, and closer to a light bulb, the shadow on the wall gets less and less focused, and then almost dissapears. The further you move your finger away from a light bulb ,closer to the wall, the sharper, and more distinct, the shadow gets.Drawing closer, and closure to Jesus makes the shadows dissapear. Another image would be this grim faced person wearing a neck brace, and being all stiffnecked. Maybe having known of Christ but returning to the beggardly things. I don't make light of this suffering, but want to show the contrast between the Joy of Christ, and the sorrow of seeking one's own righteousness. Chris | ||
| Martin Registered user Username: Martin Post Number: 48 Registered: 11-2008 |
I agree about the imagery... For years I have thought that it was ironic that the Adventists I knew would criticise the Catholics, for having all that iconography... But we had our own, right in front of our noses! If it was a raging dog, it would be biting our leg and we wouldn't even notice it. Maybe it wasn't the same than in the Catholic tradition, with all the saints, virgins and people praying to them... Remember that I come from Spain, where the Catholic tradition is really strong. But we had our paintings with that particular style that Ramone has mentioned... Those 1950's american cars, suits... The nuclear weapons... The blonde Jesus knocking on the door or pointing to some stone tablets... Always found it somewhat "bland" or generic. Please, correct me if I'm wrong... Somewhere I read that, in the United States, many people see the 50's as if they were some sort of "Golden Age" in the history of the country. I don't know if that might have something to do with the painting style we are talking about. And every time I'd look at one of the JW magazines, I was struck at how similar the style was to what I would see in Adventist publications and in church. | ||
| Helovesme2 Registered user Username: Helovesme2 Post Number: 1888 Registered: 8-2004 |
Some have made a case for plagerism by the JWs of SDA art. Perhaps that contributes to the similarity! On a tangential topic, as an SDA kid who visited a Baptist Sunday school from time to time, I found SDA artwork for Sabbath school much more interesting and realistic than what my Baptist friend had in her Sunday school - hers were are cartoon type characters. | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 2652 Registered: 10-2004  |
I haven't been able to read all of the comments on this thread, but here is something I posted previously about artwork (except I updated the first URL):
Jeremy (Message edited by Jeremy on March 30, 2009) | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 4462 Registered: 9-2006 |
We-urd stuff Jere! | ||
| Martinc Registered user Username: Martinc Post Number: 86 Registered: 9-2006 |
This is a curious situation shown in those links you gave, Jeremy. Why would the Adventist websites feel the need to "borrow" art from JWs and the WWCOG, and vice versa? With all the thousands of images out there on the net, many of them available for free or on reasonable terms, what could be a defensible reason be for needing to use art from the above mentioned groups? As Ramone said, "...there really are a lot of very good Christian artists out there who don't paint dry, lifeless Biblical scenes. And there are even a few who paint Biblical scenes that have life in them." Are these just isolated examples we are making much of? Actually I would be very interested in a reasonable explanation for the need of such borrowing. | ||
| Agapetos Registered user Username: Agapetos Post Number: 1811 Registered: 10-2002 |
Hey everyone, Actually, if you think about it, "Sabbath" is a good over-arching summary of what we're talking about on this thread. It was a "picture" of Jesus Christ, but so much time was spent trying to get that "picture" correct (keep Sabbath correctly) that we missed the reality of what it portrayed... and we missed when the Portrait came to life and left the old "frame" behind! In turn, this reminds me of a vision a friend had of scenes from Christ's life... His childhood, life & ministry, etc., all which were shown in gold, like cards or pages of gold. But Christ in the pictures seemed to be trying to get out of the picture. The final scene was of the cross and the empty tomb, but was kind of fuzzy and dark, and couldn't be seen clearly. As we prayed about it, we learned that it was about the Adventist "Jesus" and story of His life. Everything was carefully arranged and laid out so as to prove Christ lived and taught the SDA way. But this actually tries to contain Christ instead of let Him be who He really is. And like the "Desire of Ages" book, there were 'extra' scenes of His life that weren't in the Bible, which were put in to make it seem like this "picture" of Christ's life was 'more complete' than other churches' pictures of Christ's life (which came from the Bible alone). In the end, my friend felt let down because the joy of the resurrection wasn't seen, and even the cross & empty tomb were fuzzy and hard to see... because it was veiled! I think, River, that what you wrote and what I had said earlier really highlights the problem with our attempts to "get everything right". When we try so hard to get it too correct, too perfect, we often end up killing what life is in it. (Like trying to take the word "grace" itself and dissect it into a set of doctrines!) With painting, the difficulty in doing "Biblical realism" is that we don't completely know what everything looked like back then! But somehow we feel that we have to, or we should strive to get it right! We weren't there to see it, and I think unconsciously there is part of us that feels like if we just "paint it" correctly, it will fill in that gap, that missing part. It's part of that natural human desire of ours to have things by sight ...because "by faith alone" is so darn hard! But I think the Holy Spirit has more "story" to tell... more things to say, you know? Paul wrote that each of us is "a letter from Christ" that can be known and read by everybody. The "canon" is closed, but God is still speaking and still "writing letters" to people through us! So we can open up to Him today and let Him do that, instead of trying to fill in the missing "picture" gaps from the past, which wouldn't be fulfilling anyway! But letting Him speak through us today -- creating new letters in our lives, in our stories, in our art... well, there is something to that! Bless you all in Jesus! Ramone P.S. to River: Thank you for sharing about that! Not a diversion at all, but very much a real part of what's being talked about here! It seems to me that the realm of "Christian fiction" is indeed so controlled and mechanical that I actually know nothing about it -- I steer miles clear of it. If I want to read "Christian fiction", I'll end up looking through the works of the past: at favorites such as C.S. Lewis or Dostoevsky. What occurs to me is that "grace" is not a neatly packaged thing. Grace is messy. I remember reading Philip Yancey when he talked about a church that opened its basement to Alcoholics Anonymous meetings... he said not every church is willing to do that. It will mean a lot of brokenness, a lot of smoking, a mess, a lot of emotional baggage coming out, etc. But for those that stick through it, grace blows up among them and overtakes them. We want "grace" (and indeed the whole of "Christianity") to be something neat, packaged, respectable, polished, shiny, attractive. It's the same thing that the Pharisees strove for, don't you think? Isn't that why Jesus called them whitewashed sepulchres? Is that part of why the "world" and "sinners" don't want to get anywhere near us (the church) today? Shoot, River, bro., go ahead and try a Christian publisher, and if they reject it, ask God to guide you to a non-Christian publisher. Nothing like a little irony to spicen up life, and nothing like a little spreading of His grace to people who otherwise might not hear it! Thanks for your offer!! I'll have to check & see if I've got your email address... or, you can pull my email address off of this page: http://art-for-jesus.blogspot.com/2007/12/ordering-art-prints.html Bless you in Jesus, bro! | ||
| Martin Registered user Username: Martin Post Number: 49 Registered: 11-2008 |
Thanks. This is something that has been on my head for a very long time now, even before changing... And its been hard to express. If I had to compare between then and now, then the now has life in it. I do not completely understand it yet, but the difference is abismal. Just grace, for example... Before I only had an understanding, intellectual knowledge about it. I think I knew what it means, more or less, but did not have a deep impact in my life... It just was a dried and thin shell. From the outside it looked like it was ok, but inside it was completely void of life. And the same happened with so many other things... I think that's the "intellectualization" in adventism that I mentioned in another topic. People striving just to understand when they could be living! A SDA friend, when I told him about my experience and thoughts after reading the NT, recommended me to read also the Old Testament to understand Jesus properly. The problem is that I do not want just to understand Him... Even if I do not get to understand everything... I want to know Him! Live with Him and in Him! Why would I want just the wrapping paper, when I could have the whole package? (Message edited by martin on March 31, 2009) | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 4464 Registered: 9-2006 |
Ramone, In the members section, click on River above the sheep and you will find my e-mail address. You spoke well of what I was trying to form in my mind, they want to package it all up neatly and present it to the world in a certain form and my Characters are messy with loose ends and problems. River | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 9605 Registered: 12-2003  |
Very interesting. I know that there has been "sharing", at least of artists, between SDA and Mormonism, also. In the 70's I was on a tour with a music group from Gem State Academy as a faculty sponsor. We toured the Visitor's Center there which has since been redone. I was amazed to seeI can't remember if it was seven or tenbigger-than-life-murals in the main lobby area painted by Harry Andersonthe SDAs prized artist who painted so much of the classic SDA artwork from the mid-20th century, including Uncle Arthur's Bible Stories. The murals depicted creation, the fall, etc etc--all very "kosher" appearing...but they were painted on location specifically for the Mormon church. I had heard about this artwork even before we got there, and Adventists were proud that "their" prized artist was sought out and commissioned by the Mormons. It was sort-of like pride that someone else recognized their "good thing". The pictures were typical Harry Anderson. They looked exactly like the style and feeling present in all his stuff. When Paul Carden visited us a year ago and toured the LLU campus with us, we were startled that he spent special effort and time to examine the paintings on the walls of the lobby of the medical center. We asked him why, and he said cultic art always depicts Jesus differently than Christian art. He said the paintings in the lobby (most of which are by SDA artist Nathan Green) show Jesus as a man, not as the Lord Jesus who is God. He said in those pics where Jesus is standing over the shoulder of the doctor, standing behind the mom, child, and nurse, standing behind the chemist and holding a molecule, etc etc show Jesus as a human companion, not as the sovereign Lord. The website, Jeremy, with the pics from the Watchtower doesn't surprise me given the history of Adventists sharing their artists and depicting Jesus in a way both Mormons and JWs could also agree to see him. I think, Martinc, that although we don't have a great portfolio of shared art, the underlying "resonance" between the non-divine JW "Jesus" and the non-divine Mormon "Jesus" would leave Adventists admiring art from those groups because they could just as well be theirs. After all, why re-invent the whell? One more comment: the cover of this second quarter's SS Quarterly is another PRIME example of cultic art: Jesus, pointing into the distance, showing the way to four young people. Only one is glancing at Jesus as he stares straight ahead. The other three are looking into the distance where Jesus is pointing. Cults depict Jesus as the "way-shower". The real Jesus IS the WAY. His followers look to Him and pursue Him, going where He goes. They do not look away from Him toward some "way" which He points to. Colleen | ||
| Agapetos Registered user Username: Agapetos Post Number: 1812 Registered: 10-2002 |
Colleen, What strikes me about your descriptions of the LLU paintings is that they also show Jesus as a sort of guide, assistant, or teacher. Instead of showing Jesus Himself as the solution, the pictures show Jesus pointing out a solution, "pointing the way" rather than being the way (like that SS cover! I commented on it a bit here, by the way). Of course Jesus also is a guide and a teacher, but the problem is that SDA artwork typically shows only that facet of Him -- Jesus who "shows the way" -- and rarely shows Jesus who is the way. About the sort of shared portfolio between cults, so to speak, it is puzzling. But I think now it comes from similar thinking. That is, they admire the same kinds of things... the appearance of perfection, pictures of Jesus "showing the way", etc. They think similarly and have similar goals. They think in the 1950s realism world, mostly with white people clad in suits-and-ties and dresses. So when they might see a picture from a competing cult, because the vision (and values) mirror their own, they admire the artwork "because it's good"... it shows what they themselves think. The shared thought patterns are what produce the similar art, and that is why the can admire one anothers' art. It's a pretty subtle connection, but it says a lot, I think. But on that note, between the three major "Christian cults" (SDA, LDS, JW), more than once I've observed a sort of mutual respect or admiration for one another. In SDA, I've heard admiration for the LDS missions program, and of how these three groups are the only ones who prostyletize (sp?) --as if it was a good point in each of them. When some JWs knocked on my door here (they sent English-speakers to try and get me, ha!), they were a bit shocked when I told them I was a former Adventist, and spoke of SDA with respect. I think I've heard admiration for each others' institutions exchanged between LDS and SDA before, as well. I think this is possible generally because the identity of Jesus Christ as God is not very strong in each of the three "Christian cults". Jesus is generally the perfect man, the teacher and guide. So they might unconsciously see the other cult as simply being mistaken about Jesus -- and being mistaken about a teacher or prophet is not as bad as being mistaken about God. If the three cults had more diversion on God the Father, I think there might be less respect for one another. However, now as I write this I realize that more precisely (and more consciously), each of the three cults is legalistic. Each focuses on law and has a salvation-by-works message and attitude. It is natural then for one cult to admire the "zeal" for the other. Each cult has a zeal for its law, and that is easy to be impressed by if your own cult has a similar zeal. You can say they're simply mistaken about their law and don't do it right like we do. I think that is likely the most common thing between the cults' art, the reverence for works and message about works/information. It does trace back to a less-than-divine view of Jesus at times, but the law/works thing is the loudest commonality now that I think about it. Even on the page Jeremy showed, the pictures all betray this. It advertised Biblical "secrets" and understanding of "prophecy" as if knowing those things would save you in the end. The Biblical scenes are portrayed and treated more as information than as living words with relevant messages for you and me today. Their subjects are shown as people who were obeying God and upholding the law. The bottom line in all of the pictures is that you need to know some certain information or do some certain law(s) in order to be saved. The missing divinity of Jesus is most conspicuous because of its absence in pictures where the works are shown to be "the way". Blessings in Jesus in spite of all of this crazy stuff! Ramone | ||
| Agapetos Registered user Username: Agapetos Post Number: 1815 Registered: 10-2002 |
I'm going to cross-post something here that I had just mentioned in the "Jesus rested not in the possession of almighty power" thread, because it really connects. The topic of "Christ's example" had come up, as well as the topic of the "maturing of our faith". I piggybacked on what others had said with my comment... ***** ...Our "position" in following Christ's example is really important: The position that we "follow" Christ from now is not one of attaining salvation, not one of one day maturing enough to be saved or save-able. Christ is not our "tutor", so to speak. He is our Savior. He is the One who has made us children of God. The position that we live in, follow in, and obey God in is the position as one of His children, one of His saved, sealed & adopted children. We're in His house. (Actually, we are His house! Our bodies are His temple!) We are free to grow, just like a child is free to learn, grow and obey his or her parents without fear of being cast out of the house because of imperfect performance. The point of our "maturity" and "growth" is on a different track than the point of our salvation & adoption. Our justification & sanctification are on different tracks, so to speak. But yet, both proceed from Christ Himself and in Christ Himself. Both are in Him: The way that we "follow Christ" and "live for Him" is by dying to the law and letting Him simply live out His life within us. There is a hymn that says it well: And it occurs to me now, also, that the "perfection" spoken of is not a perfection of action or deed, but rather Christ is the pefector of our faith. Isn't that interesting? The bottom line is not "law" and "perfect obedience", but rather faith. In Adventism the whole "example" thing is not only over-stressed, it is a salvational matter. But on the whole, in mainstream Christianity it is also misrepresented. It is not usually "salvational" (sometimes it is, but not usually), but "Christ-likeness" is still over-stressed and seen through the lenses of the Law instead of the lenses of faith. Hence, you have things like the WWJD fad -- "What would Jesus do?" -- which look to Jesus as the example, and which see the bottom line as being actions, obedience, and in effect, Law. Most tellingly, evangelicals tend to stress "Christlikeness" the most when talking about evangelism. The manner of helping others come to know Christ is still seen in terms of perfection of action & law-obedience. The result of this emphasis is that much of the world (if not most of it) thinks of Christians as unapproachable "Holier-than-thous" or hypocrites. It betrays that a lot of us Christians (likely most of us) still look at "grace" as a path to keeping the law -- that "faith" came in order to help us obey the tutor better, so to speak. Hey, I fall into this thinking naturally, too, by the way! We don't realize that our message is not perfection or some magic way to be perfect. Our message is not that the Spirit will indwell us for the purpose of making us law-keepers. Instead our message is grace. Our message is that Christ has done it for us already! And now, as children of God, we can be free to grow up looking up to Daddy, growing up as His child. The "perfection" of the New Testament is spoken in terms of faith and love. Not sinlessness. Sin isn't good and we've got to ask for His help getting rid of it in our lives, but the gospel is not about sin-management... and if we make the gospel just about that, we'll keep fighting a losing battle while trying to appear holier and happier -- and the world sees right through that (often a lot clearer than we do). The perfection of the NT is a perfection of faith -- of trusting in God no matter what -- and a perfection of love -- of letting Him love through us and choosing His love instead of choosing what we rationalize as being "justice" for ourselves. What speaks best to the unbelieving world is those very two things -- faith and love -- because it is in these two things that they've got huge holes in their hearts. These are things that the world cannot give, but that can only be found in God. And, often these things come out best through the cracks of our weaknesses, our trials, our tribulations, our brokennesses, our "falls from grace", so to speak. We try to cover up our weaknesses and present what we think are our "strengths" to the world (our good behavior, etc.). But our "strengths" aren't really strengths, so the world sees our frequent failures and shakes its head or gets a good laugh at our expense. In contrast, Paul boasted of his weaknesses and thus proclaimed Christ's strength. In Christianity we try to draw these "perfect pictures" meant to be inspiring, but they simply feel so lifeless, dead, and uninspiring. I think we should paint our weaknesses and brokennesses more. Like David's psalms. A lot of folks in the world can, do, and will relate to that better. Bless you in Jesus! Ramone (Message edited by agapetos on April 01, 2009) | ||
| Christo Registered user Username: Christo Post Number: 117 Registered: 2-2008 |
Hi, You know the Law, reveals sin, at least outwardly, perhaps most greatly to other people. But God written in our hearts reveals sin both inwardly, and outwardly. God reveals sin most profoundly in ourselves, not in each other. But in the Christian cults,the law, doctrine, and legalism is used to bolster ones own concept of themselves, and point out the sins of others. Sort of like a self justification process. I could never understand how a sabatarian could finish the day and say to themselves, job well done. I too have noticed a sympathy, and defense amongst the Big Three jw, lds, sda (not Detroit), that arises especially when one of the others is used as an example of the how people can arive at speculative conclusions, or prophetic teachings that do not align with the bible. Believers can in no way justify themselves. Its hard to elaborate with out painting myself as a villan, or trying to defend myself as "not that bad",but its an awareness of brokenness, of knowing that I cannot justify myself. I cannot see how a believer could not be aware of their sin, either by things done, or acts of ommission. The remedy is Christ Jesus who not only reveals brokenness, but justifies , and transforms the heart. Oh Jesus Chris | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 9610 Registered: 12-2003 |
Really good points, Chris. And Ramone, I agree with your observations above. Colleen |
