| Author | Message | ||
| Jrt Registered user Username: Jrt Post Number: 238 Registered: 10-2008 |
What does it mean to worship in Spirit and in Truth? I have wondered this for many, many years . . . After a posting in a different area - the question has returned to me again. I'd be interested in your input and feedback . . . Below is the scripture in which it is taken from:
Looking forward to the dialogue. Feel free to share what you or scripture means by "worship". Keri | ||
| Dennis Registered user Username: Dennis Post Number: 1639 Registered: 4-2000  |
Keri, The phrase "in spirit and truth" does not refer to the Holy Spirit, but to the human spirit. Jesus' point here is that a person must worship not simply by external conformity to religious rituals and places (outwardly), but inwardly ("in spirit") with the proper heart attitude. The reference to "truth" refers to worship of God consistent with the revealed Scripture and centered on the "Word made flesh" who ultimately revealed His father. Dennis Fischer | ||
| Philharris Registered user Username: Philharris Post Number: 1472 Registered: 5-2007  |
Dennis, You are totally correct. Yet... We must have the Holy Spirit before our spirit is able to worship. And, we can not understand truth or its importance without the Holy Spirit.
Phil | ||
| Grace_alone Registered user Username: Grace_alone Post Number: 1411 Registered: 6-2006  |
Sort of along those lines, I've always looked at it as your spirit responding to the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. Does that sound right?  Leigh Anne | ||
| Agapetos Registered user Username: Agapetos Post Number: 1798 Registered: 10-2002  |
In addition to what the others shared, I think the context also suggest that Jesus's words are a direct answer to the woman's question: "Our fathers worshiped on this mountain, but you say that in Jerusalem is the place where people ought to worship." By saying "spirit and truth", Jesus removed "proper location" as a pre-requisite for acceptable worship to God. Prior to Christ and the New Covenant, Jerusalem was the correct place, and the Jews had that right. The Samaritans didn't. But when Christ came and brought the New Covenant, the Temple Himself came ("God with us") and then further His Spirit set up home inside of us. Now we--our bodies--are His temple, according to the New Testament. Additionally, by saying "the hour", Jesus also showed that the "proper time" to worship God is NOW, just as Hebrews 4 says "Today". With one statement Jesus declared that He is the fulfillment of the Temple and the Holy Days & Holy Times, and that from now on we all (Gentiles and Jews) must worship Him not by place nor by time, but right now in spirit and in truth. About the "in spirit" part, I agree with all here that it references both our spirits and the Holy Spirit, who Himself brings our spirits to life and by whom we offer worship that pleases God. The woman asked which place was the proper, acceptable place of worship, and Jesus answered saying what worship is acceptable to God. In Philippians 3 Paul said that "we worship by the Holy Spirit" (and that we are "the circumcision" because of this) -- In fact, you could say that what Paul said there is a good summary of "spirit and truth". The "in truth" part says quite a lot as well. Firstly, Jesus had just said that the Jews did in fact know God more correctly than the Samaritans and were worshiping in the right physical location. In this sense, we might say that "the Jews had the truth". But then Jesus says, "But...!" His statement about "spirit and truth" comes as a contrast to the present state of things--even what the Jews had correct! Immediately after affirming what the Jews had, He then says, "But now... in spirit and truth." This suggests loudly that while what the Jews had was indeed correct, it was lacking spirit and truth. The gospel of John's usage of "truth" highlights that... in chapter 1, "The Law was given through Moses, but grace and truth came through Jesus Christ. Jesus affirmed to the woman at the well that the Jews indeed were following the law rightly, but that is not the same as "the truth", which they were not yet aware of. They were spiritually dead and without the truth, even though they were following the law correctly. And moreover, when Christ has come, He brings something (spirit & truth) that knocks out of the way the "correct" things that the Jews did have! Grace & Truth have fulfilled and transcended the Law so much that as Jesus showed, the temple & holy days are rendered irrelevant for pleasing God any further in comparison with the eternal NOW---that NOW is the time to worship God. Indeed, all of those things---the city of Jerusalem, the people of the circumcision, the Temple and the holy days---were shadows of worshiping God in spirit and in truth. That is why they are no longer relevant in rendering acceptable worship to God. God is not seeking people to worship Him in some special way, in some special "holy land" and some special time. No, God is seeking people to worship Him NOW, whenever, wherever, and whoever they are! The "people of the circumcision" were a shadow of those whose spirits have been brought to life in Jesus Christ. That is why Paul can declare that "we are the circumcision" who worship by the Spirit, and glory in the truth (Jesus Himself - John 14:6). No more confidence in the flesh! No flesh shall glory in God's presence! No flesh is worthy in the sight of Him who is holy and is spirit. "Worship" in Scripture in the Old Testament generally meant offering sacrifices, giving other offerings, and giving God praise. All of these things we do in Christ now, in spirit and in truth. No longer with animals, but with the sacrifices of our hearts and our lips. And just like Jesus declared, we are not bound by location or times. We do not need to be in a special church with an "altar" or doing so on some particular day of the week or of the year. "Spirit and truth" came and transcended what the Jews'd had, and "spirit & truth" today still challenge our dependence on "church" buildings, "worship services" and whatever days we declare are special or ought to be observed or bring greater blessing by observing. The primary and acceptable worship God is seeking is not dependent on any of those things. Those things are not "spirit" and are not "truth", no matter how representationally correct they were. They were shadows, not substance, and many of the new traditions we have created today are still shadow and not substance. He wants us to worship Him in substance, not in shadow. All that was at Jerusalem was in shadow. No longer do we need to go to God indirectly through a priest, a censer, a service or ceremony, a liturgy or through an altar. God is seeking direct worship now. "Spirit" is what God is. He Himself is not contained by buildings made with hands. He Himself is not contained by days on a calendar. "Spirit" transcends all natural (that is, physical) limitions. This is who God is and how He exists. And God has called us to that same realm, to that same state of existence, to be with Him and worship Him there. That is why our worship cannot be bound by these things any longer. When we declare that in order for worship to be acceptable, it must be under a certain priest or bishop, in a certain "church" building or on a certain day, we declare that God --who is Spirit-- is only pleased to be present at these certain places, times, under certain peoples' blessing, or under special liturgical circumstances. We then declare that "spirit and truth" are not sufficient, but that shadows are still necessary -- whether Jewish shadows or "early Christian" shadows, the message is still the same, that "spirit and truth" actually are not enough to please God. More wonderful, I should note that while the matter of "acceptable worship" is addressed here, it's not exactly what Jesus said. What He said more precisely is still more wonderful: that He is seeking worshipers! He is not merely seeking "worship", no, He is seeking us! At the heart of "worship" and what God is desiring is us. He wants us. And He wants us to worship Him according to who (Christ) He is and what (Spirit) He is. No longer does He want us to approach Him indirectly through priests or shadows of altars and temples, but He wants us to come to Him directly now. In other words, He is done with anything standing in the way of intimacy between us and Him! The tearing of the veil speaks of Christ who was torn for us, but it also speaks of that which separated us from God. Strictly speaking, we were separated by our sins. But He has taken those out of the way in His body, and now we may go to Him directly, right here, right now! No more intermediaries, no more "priests", no more "times" or "places" or "holy lands", but rather the time is NOW, the place is HERE, and the "holy land" is the ground you are standing on! God so wanted to be with us intimately that He gave His Son to become our sin for us, and through His sacrifice He tore out of the way all that divided us from being with Him! Bless you all in Jesus! Ramone (Message edited by agapetos on March 28, 2009) | ||
| Jrt Registered user Username: Jrt Post Number: 241 Registered: 10-2008 |
Thank you, Denise, Phil, and Leigh Anne. And Ramone - your post was so insightful! I especially enjoyed your second to the last paragraph, "More wonderful, I should note" . . . When I read it tears jumped to my eyes . . . inspired words . . . I guess I had seen this text not in the way you might have thought . . . I did, ofcourse, see "truth" as Adventist truth . . . but more on the lines of doctrines or intellectual truth. I have seen the spirit in this verse as more of the "heart" or emotions. I found in the Adventist church that people either gravitated to the intellectual or the emotional. The intellectual and emotional never really could "coexist", . . . and in the past I saw Jesus as saying, "Yes, they can coexist in Me" and this verse seemed to demonstrated that to me. Yep, I know - very convoluted understanding . . . but that goes with the territory . Now, at any time, at any moment, I may worship Him in spirit and in truth, and it is that constant connection I have with Him - His Spirit communing with My spirit. Thanks again, Keri | ||
| Seekinglight Registered user Username: Seekinglight Post Number: 42 Registered: 3-2009 |
Thank you, Ramone. Your ideas & writing style remind me of John Eldredge. | ||
| Martinc Registered user Username: Martinc Post Number: 85 Registered: 9-2006 |
Thankyou for that post, Ramone, I was blessed, and moved. | ||
| Snowboardingmom Registered user Username: Snowboardingmom Post Number: 526 Registered: 11-2005 |
Trinity church, the church we attend, has a ministry called "Light and Power". It is a very active ministry in our church for people who have physical and cognitive disabilities. Last May, several members of the "Light and Power" group helped lead out in song service and in communion. I remember standing there singing with them, "Light of the world, You stepped down into darkness, opened my eyes let me see..." I remember standing there watching them singing to God and worshiping Him with their entire being, thinking to myself, Truth is not dependent on levels of comprehension or IQ. Only through God's Spirit are we capable of worshiping in spirit and in truth. He opens our eyes and lets us see... The realization moved me to tears. As an Adventist, my level of spirituality was completely dependent on my flesh. Not just in my outward works, but also in my ability to think and comprehend. Knowing God was purely an intellectual exercise. Now, I realize apart from His Spirit, we have no chance at all for being able to KNOW God. Without His Spirit, we can't worship Him in truth (much less spirit!). Truth has nothing to do with intellect. It's God Himself! Amazing how much your perspective changes when you see things through New Covenant eyes! Grace | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 9602 Registered: 12-2003  |
Yes, Grace--worshiping with Light and Power has moved me in the same way. Ramone, great post. I have also been struck by the fact that in His answer to the Samaritan woman, Jesus totally undid the Old Covenant idea of physical requirements for worship: place, time, etc.--all are irrelevant. I find this text to be a powerful revealer of the fact that we are created in God's image as "spiritual" beings. God is spirit, and we must worship Him in spirit and in truth. This revelation/command confirms that we have spirits that are not merely breath. True worship occurs when our spirits are alive and connected to God and we can honor Him in our own spirits. We worship "in truth"--we worship the Real Jesus in our literal spirits (which are not our emotions). This definition of worship is related to John 3:3-6 where Jesus told Nicodemus that we must be born again, that flesh gives birth to flesh, but Spirit gives birth to spirit. Knowing Jesus plants us in truth and reality. We know Him; we have the mind of Christ (1 Cor 2:16). We become able to discern spiritual things spiritually because He has given our spirits life. This passage to the Samaritan woman has become , for me, a profound passage that confirms that we have spirits, that our spirits are the part of us that know God, and that by our spirits becoming alive to God, we also are able to know truth and worship God without deception or rationalization. We were given spirits, thus making us uniquely in the image of God who is spirit. Amazing! Colleen | ||
| Agapetos Registered user Username: Agapetos Post Number: 1800 Registered: 10-2002 |
Grace, thank you for sharing that! It reminded me of a time when I was with some friends picking up another friend at a sort of hospice house. There was a 40-year-old mentally handicapped man there, and when he heard that we were Christians, he wanted to show us he could pray. He then immediately began to pray a prayer that you might learn as a kindergarten child, but we were all moved strongly in the Spirit as he prayed, because we knew God loved it. God treasured him and considered his prayer and simple childlike "retarted" love as the most precious thing in the world!! One of my friends who was there had used to be a special education teacher, and frequently says it was an experience in receiving God's heart for us all, "because we're all God's handicapped children!" As you said, "Truth is not dependent on levels of comprehension or IQ." Salvation is not a matter of digesting a minimum criteria of information, doctrines, or key points about grace. It is receiving grace itself, receiving God Himself. Often because we are afraid of being deceived, we rule out the Spirit's desire to communicate with us (and His ability to do so) by saying that He only speaks through the Bible. What this does, however, is that it makes informational knowledge to be the equivalent of being spiritually "rich". The more knowledge, the more Bible study, the more you "know God" or can be sure, because if God speaks only through the Bible, then that is where it's at. Cursed and far from blessing are those who cannot read or who cannot match wits with the rest of us at an intellectual level! If such a world were true, if the Spirit only spoke through Scripture, then the 40-year-old man's childlike prayer would be woefully inadequate, and people with his type of mental handicap would be without hope. I thank God that He does not stay within the bounds of our systematic theologies! And because of this we have hope, real hope, that enters behind the veil and drops anchor, even for the least of us -- for all of us because we are all His handicapped children! Bless you in Jesus! Ramone P.S. Seekinglight, thanks for your words and comparison. I enjoy a lot of his writings, even though he's a nut, hehe. | ||
| Agapetos Registered user Username: Agapetos Post Number: 1801 Registered: 10-2002 |
Colleen, yes! And hence Hebrews 12:9 says He is "the Father of our spirits"! Woohoo! |
